How likely is it that GRRM just simply didn't think about all the details and theories we all like to argue over?

[Back in Black-Snow]

I just have a hard time believing that any author has the time or desire to sit and think of all these things before they start writing and during the writing process. Do they try? Probably, but it is impossible. There are going to be discrepancies.

I am not thinking of anything specific. I just know that much of this story is inspired by, or outright stolen from other great works in the genre, or by certain versions of real history.

Personally, I think that the GRRM just had an idea for an epic story, borrowed heavily from real-world or other sources and tried to make it his own story. And he has done a fantastic job doing that.

My guess is that he just wrote and wrote and wrote, and he never really considered that his fans/readers would rip his story apart so thoroughly.

Am I right or wrong? Or both?

[Ran]

To a degree you're right. Some of the more out there and complicated theories are simply not things GRRM has in mind, and people are just seeing what they want to see.

[Back in Black-Snow]

But as an aspiring author myself, I am not sure that I would like my readers to be shooting at every bush thinking they may have seen a rabbit. Unless I intended for them to do so.

Many years ago I wrote a poem about a young girl (from her dad's POV). It progressed from when she was her birth until she came home from Iraq in a casket. Essentially the poem is her father remembering all the important stages of her life, and he stands by her casket and greets those who came to honor her memory.

We sat and discussed the poem in class, and everyone dissected it and gave their opinions.

But I was actually shocked and surprised at some of the ideas and opinions the other students had. Some were flattering and made me feel more confident as a writer. And others were WAY off base and made me question my ability as a writer. Because I had never considered those things while writing.

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, Ran said:

To a degree you're right. Some of the more out there and complicated theories are simply not things GRRM has in mind, and people are just seeing what they want to see.

Can you blame them with all the hidden details and secret characters etc. that are already there? Having already so many of them, it is only natural that people expect there to be more.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I guess what I am saying is that there are always unintended consequences, and that a big chunk of what we theorize about, etc., are a consequence of unintended circumstances. Things that GRRM never really considered (but addresses when forced to). Which just adds to the mix.

 

[James Arryn]

29 minutes ago, Ran said:

To a degree you're right. Some of the more out there and complicated theories are simply not things GRRM has in mind, and people are just seeing what they want to see.

Is this you low-key confirming that Daario = Shaggydog is false?

[Ran]

Just now, James Arryn said:

Is this you low-key confirming that Daario = Shaggydog is false?

That doesn't look like anything to me.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

But as an aspiring author myself, I am not sure that I would like my readers to be shooting at every bush thinking they may have seen a rabbit. Unless I intended for them to do so.

In ASOIAF, you aren't supposed to shoot at every bush, but you are supposed to shoot at some.

[Back in Black-Snow]

5 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Is this you low-key confirming that Daario = Shaggydog is false?

I would like to have an actual serious discussion about this, if you don't mind. Thanks.

I know there are going to be jokes, legitimate opinions, etc. But I would rather this OP not get derailed into what we all see littering the forum. Thanks.

[Sandy Clegg]

Well let’s see. We know the books take a very long time to write and George describes them as very complex. He’s named one of his castles, Riverrun, after the first word of Finnegan’s Wake (by James Joyce), arguably the most cryptic and difficult to understand novel in history. 

He uses symbolism and has compared himself (in his podcast) as a magician when writing, using misdirection to put people off the scent of subtle clues in the text. 
 

And the first book is called GAME of Thrones. So yes, I think he puts a lot of care into his books and is still at least 3 steps ahead of us.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

1 hour ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

Am I right or wrong? Or both?

Definitely both.

A saga of the caliber of A Song of Ice and Fire, with all the complexities, characterization, references, motifs, symbolism, iconography, and metaphors involved, clearly takes a great amount of time to brainstorm and to bring to life. It is very likely that Mr. Martin spent much time on different details and in setting up theorizing with foreshadowing, worldbuilding, and character development.

It is also true that invested audiences with years to disassemble works will inevitably overthink them to an extent even the author could not conceive. There are a lot of things he may have been thinking subconsciously, but not nearly with the level of reflection that readers assume; and there are many more ideas that he probably didn't intend to convey at all, many of them running counter to his actual intent.

[Nevets]

In a series as long and complicated as this one, mistakes, omissions, coincidences, unintentional word usage and the like are going to crop up.  This seems to be a particular problem early in the series.  He probably wasn't expecting it to be popular enough that readers would go through it with a fine toothed comb and be able to tell the whole world what they found.

So, for example, Jaqen H'ghar pops up basically out of nowhere, prompting all sorts of wild theories about his background.  I suspect he was in the black cells because GRRM put him there to advance Arya's story, and didn't think about it otherwise.

I've begun to suspect that one reason recent books have taken so long is that it takes time to check for and close holes and tie off loose ends.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well let’s see. We know the books take a very long time to write and George describes them as very complex. He’s named one of his castles, Riverrun, after the first word of Finnegan’s Wake (by James Joyce), arguably the most cryptic and difficult to understand novel in history. 
He uses symbolism and has compared himself (in his podcast) as a magician when writing, using misdirection to put people off the scent of subtle clues in the text.And the first book is called GAME of Thrones. So yes, I think he puts a lot of care into his books and is still at least 3 steps ahead of us.  

And...

I am not a writer and perhaps Ran can shed some light on my understanding of Martin's rather excruciating writing process.  Again, my understanding.   He writes characters, not the entire story.  Thus, if he's got 2/3 of Jamie done, has an idea he loves he could conceivably have to go back and rewrite parts or all of every character and place Jamie's story has (and will) impacted.  That's a lot of writing and rewriting and creating new story.  That is creative insanity and following a muse in the purest form.   Much as GRRM enjoys the story telling I cannot fathom the stories written we won't ever see because Tyrion ended up in Mereen or something.  

[Back in Black-Snow]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well let’s see. We know the books take a very long time to write and George describes them as very complex. He’s named one of his castles, Riverrun, after the first word of Finnegan’s Wake (by James Joyce), arguably the most cryptic and difficult to understand novel in history. 

He uses symbolism and has compared himself (in his podcast) as a magician when writing, using misdirection to put people off the scent of subtle clues in the text. 
 

And the first book is called GAME of Thrones. So yes, I think he puts a lot of care into his books and is still at least 3 steps ahead of us.  

I agree. That is not what I meant. What I guess I meant is, sometimes shit just falls through the cracks. It happens.

And as he gets closer to the end, he is recognizing this a little more than he did at the beginning. And he is dead-set on not repeating it. And because of what you say in your post, he is taking extra precautions to eliminate that.

After all, how would you (or anyone else) feel if you spent most of your life producing what you intended to be the best boat ever made, and the person you sold it to just parks it in a half-acre pond and invents all these stories of what they THINK it would be like if they actually used the boat in the way it was intended?

[Sandy Clegg]

1 minute ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

After all, how would you (or anyone else) feel if you spent most of your life producing what you intended to be the best boat ever made, and the person you sold it to just parks it in a half-acre pond and invents all these stories of what they THINK it would be like if they actually used the boat in the way it was intended?

Well George has stated that he is against fan fiction, as I recall, but that he (begrudgingly perhaps) recognises that fans on the internet will theorise to their heart’s content. 
 

The way I like to put it is this: George has created a complex tale, in part inspired by history, and with a thousand moving parts. He has also weaved mysteries into these books. The community’s fondness for theories doesn’t come out of nowhere. That doesn’t mean they are all valid of course. They’re a symptom of an itch that needs scratching, though. And George put that itch in the books. People just feel that something more is going on. And regardless of whether their conclusions are right - man, that itch is undeniable …

[Back in Black-Snow]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well George has stated that he is against fan fiction, as I recall, but that he (begrudgingly perhaps) recognises that fans on the internet will theorise to their heart’s content. 
 

The way I like to put it is this: George has created a complex tale, in part inspired by history, and with a thousand moving parts. He has also weaved mysteries into these books. The community’s fondness for theories doesn’t come out of nowhere. That doesn’t mean they are all valid of course. They’re a symptom of an itch that needs scratching, though. And George put that itch in the books. People just feel that something more is going on. And regardless of whether their conclusions are right - man, that itch is undeniable …

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Bendric Dayne]

5 hours ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

I just have a hard time believing that any author has the time or desire to sit and think of all these things before they start writing and during the writing process. Do they try? Probably, but it is impossible. There are going to be discrepancies.

I am not thinking of anything specific. I just know that much of this story is inspired by, or outright stolen from other great works in the genre, or by certain versions of real history.

Personally, I think that the GRRM just had an idea for an epic story, borrowed heavily from real-world or other sources and tried to make it his own story. And he has done a fantastic job doing that.

My guess is that he just wrote and wrote and wrote, and he never really considered that his fans/readers would rip his story apart so thoroughly.

Am I right or wrong? Or both?

I think you are right. I don't think he's planning all of these many many things, but he already has done some. Most theories are not going to lead anywhere, even if they have some solid backing; they can't all be true. The thing is, some of them will be true, we just can't really tell which ones will be true (except the ones that are basically confirmed). Some might even be true, but might never be confirmed; something like (The Hound=Gravedigger). Like it's pretty much confirmed but not outright so yeah.

So we might interpret certain 'hints' in the text that make certain theories more likely to be true. Two theories might be just as likely to be true based on the solidity of their hints, but it can turn out that only one is true, and what we thought were 'hints' for the other was just GRRM writing, not thinking about the theory we came up with. He doesn't mean for a lot of the things we consider to be 'hints for a theory' to actually be hinting us towards a certain theory. But we can't really not come up with a theory when we think we've read something hinting us towards a theory, which is why there are a lot of compelling theories out there that GRRM probably never intended for them to exist. 

[Aebram]

11 hours ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

I just have a hard time believing that any author has the time or desire to sit and think of all these things before they start writing and during the writing process. Do they try? Probably, but it is impossible. There are going to be discrepancies.

I am not thinking of anything specific. I just know that much of this story is inspired by, or outright stolen from other great works in the genre, or by certain versions of real history.

Personally, I think that the GRRM just had an idea for an epic story, borrowed heavily from real-world or other sources and tried to make it his own story. And he has done a fantastic job doing that.

My guess is that he just wrote and wrote and wrote, and he never really considered that his fans/readers would rip his story apart so thoroughly.

Am I right or wrong? Or both?

So now we're discussing a theory about theories.  :^.