Is Jon Snow another Jaime Lannister?

[Back in Black-Snow]

What I mean by that is, Jaime had to make a choice between two seemingly conflicting oaths (the oath as a knight and the oath as a knight of the Kings Guard).

We see Jon weigh and struggle with many of the decisions he has to make, as Lord Commander, but also before that.

Is it possible that Jon will spend the rest of his days marred by the choices he made to do what he thought was the right thing to do?

Will he ultimately be hated, like Jaime? Or will he be loved for basically doing the same thing as Jaime? (I am talking about killing Aerys to save Kings Landing).

I see there may be some confusion here, but I will address that as people respond, if there is confusion.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

14 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

What I mean by that is, Jaime had to make a choice between two seemingly conflicting oaths (the oath as a knight and the oath as a knight of the Kings Guard).

We see Jon weigh and struggle with many of the decisions he has to make, as Lord Commander, but also before that.

Is it possible that Jon will spend the rest of his days marred by the choices he made to do what he thought was the right thing to do?

Will he ultimately be hated, like Jaime? Or will he be loved for basically doing the same thing as Jaime? (I am talking about killing Aerys to save Kings Landing).

I see there may be some confusion here, but I will address that as people respond, if there is confusion.

It’s possible 

[Corvo the Crow]

Jon already has an entire people fallen in love with him, wildlings not forcefully bending the knee but willingly swearing him their oaths .

[kissdbyfire]

I don’t think that Jon broke any vows. Quite the opposite in fact, everything he did in Dance, he did to uphold his vows to protect the realms of men. 
 

 

[Back in Black-Snow]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon already has an entire people fallen in love with him, wildlings not forcefully bending the knee but willingly swearing him their oaths .

 

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think that Jon broke any vows. Quite the opposite in fact, everything he did in Dance, he did to uphold his vows to protect the realms of men. 
 

 

I 100% agree with both of these. And when I mentioned Jaime, I was only referring to his refusal to let Kings Landing burn (and his refusing to bring Aerys his father's head [not mentioned in OP]).

[Back in Black-Snow]

14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon already has an entire people fallen in love with him, wildlings not forcefully bending the knee but willingly swearing him their oaths .

I understand what you are saying and agree. But Jon DID take hostages, and we have his own thoughts regarding whether he could do his duty if need be (i.e. snipping off hostage heads). I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that it wasn't exactly unforced. But I definitely agree that they respect him. After all, is he not the son of Eddard Stark (wink, wink)?

*Forgive me if I am wrong about the hostages. I haven't done a re-read for a couple years.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

 

I 100% agree with both of these. And when I mentioned Jaime, I was only referring to his refusal to let Kings Landing burn (and his refusing to bring Aerys his father's head [not mentioned in OP]).

No need to justify, I love Jaime and think he’s one of the best and most interesting characters in the books. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

 

I 100% agree with both of these. And when I mentioned Jaime, I was only referring to his refusal to let Kings Landing burn (and his refusing to bring Aerys his father's head [not mentioned in OP]).

That bit about Jamie refusing to bring Aery's Tywin's head is overlooked way too often I think.  What a ghoul?  He really punked Tywin with Jamie, specifically, but with both kids.  Aerys was an awful man, an awful former boss.  But telling Jamie to bring him his fathers head after making him watch The Starks burn together and the madness about burning the city...just incredible.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

Curled Finger, your post reminded me of old times. I remember being one of the proponents of the wildfire cache theory and hypothesizing that Jaime might actually have killed Aerys to save King's Landing, after ACoK and before ASoS on some early bulletin boards. There were dozens of us! Dozens!

 

The vision was truly chilling, in some ways even more so before we got Jaime's perspective in ASoS: 

The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes."

Daenerys IV, A Clash of Kings

One of my all-time favorite chapters for so many reasons!

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

I understand what you are saying and agree. But Jon DID take hostages, and we have his own thoughts regarding whether he could do his duty if need be (i.e. snipping off hostage heads). I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that it wasn't exactly unforced. But I definitely agree that they respect him. After all, is he not the son of Eddard Stark (wink, wink)?

*Forgive me if I am wrong about the hostages. I haven't done a re-read for a couple years.

You’re right, he did take hostages. But he never questions whether he’ll be able to execute one if necessary. And that’s basically how Flint and Norrey grudgingly agree w/ the plan. 

  “It is not their children who concern us. We fear the fathers, not the sons.”

  “As do I. So I insisted upon hostages.” I am not the trusting fool you take me for … nor am I half wildling, no matter what you believe. “One hundred boys between the ages of eight and sixteen. A son from each of their chiefs and captains, the rest chosen by lot. The boys will serve as pages and squires, freeing our own men for other duties. Some may choose to take the black one day. Queerer things have happened. The rest will stand hostage for the loyalty of their sires.”

  The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?”

  It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”

  “Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”

  “None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

  Ask Janos Slynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

 

 

[Many-Faced Votary]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But he never questions whether he’ll be able to execute one if necessary.

I read that more as Jon telling himself he would do what is necessary than an indication that he actually would. But outwardly, he certainly seems poised to; and that's what mattered in the end.

For all their parallels, this is an important contrast with Daenerys. She nearly cries at the thought of having to execute her child hostages, and "feebly" tells the Green Grace and the Shavepate that they're innocents when the matter is brought up.

What good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children? is what Dany thinks. I would like to believe Jon would think that as well, if it actually came down to it. But he has demonstrated ruthlessness in his noble goals, as with Gilly's child swap; and the perception of his willingness is why the plan was agreed upon -- as you alluded to, I think.

[Back in Black-Snow]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That bit about Jamie refusing to bring Aery's Tywin's head is overlooked way too often I think.  What a ghoul?  He really punked Tywin with Jamie, specifically, but with both kids.  Aerys was an awful man, an awful former boss.  But telling Jamie to bring him his fathers head after making him watch The Starks burn together and the madness about burning the city...just incredible.  

Gives you the shivers, don't it?

[sifth]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think that Jon broke any vows. Quite the opposite in fact, everything he did in Dance, he did to uphold his vows to protect the realms of men. 
 

 

I agree, I just wish he surrounded himself with more people he could trust. Grenn for example, should have been made into one of his guards, possibly Pyp as well. Keeping Marsh as Lord Steward was such a mistake; the guy is both a bigot and a military fool. Best thing I can say about him is he's not a coward, worst thing I can say is he was probably the worst commander of the watch during the Old Bears time in power.

[Back in Black-Snow]

32 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Curled Finger, your post reminded me of old times. I remember being one of the proponents of the wildfire cache theory and hypothesizing that Jaime might actually have killed Aerys to save King's Landing, after ACoK and before ASoS on some early bulletin boards. There were dozens of us! Dozens!

 

The vision was truly chilling, in some ways even more so before we got Jaime's perspective in ASoS: 

The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes."

Daenerys IV, A Clash of Kings

One of my all-time favorite chapters for so many reasons!

And Her Grace, Danarys Targaryen, this an that, etc etc., will fulfill that to a certain degree.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dany as a character. So I am not bashing her at all. But I do think she will misread circumstances in Westeros and will pay dearly for it.

[Many-Faced Votary]

2 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

And Her Grace, Danarys Targaryen, this an that, etc etc., will fulfill that to a certain degree.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dany as a character. So I am not bashing her at all. But I do think she will misread circumstances in Westeros and will pay dearly for it.

That's something we will have to respectfully disagree upon. I never derived that reading from her arc, though I got it very strongly from Cersei's. Neither do I think Dany is even on track to be at King's Landing when it burns, logistically speaking; there is too much to do in Essos. This is particularly true if Euron will make it to the capital, which to me seems far likelier than Oldtown.

[Craving Peaches]

If anyone is going to burn King's Landing I think it is Jon Connington. We know that he regrets not torching Stoney Sept to kill Robert. We know the tolling of the bells haunts him. We know he's only got so much time left with the Greyscale. It is not exactly a stabilising mixture.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

If anyone is going to burn King's Landing I think it is Jon Connington. We know that he regrets not torching Stoney Sept to kill Robert. We know the tolling of the bells haunts him. We know he's only got so much time left with the Greyscale. It is not exactly a stabilising mixture.

That’s also a distinct possibility. 

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think that Jon broke any vows. Quite the opposite in fact, everything he did in Dance, he did to uphold his vows to protect the realms of men. 

Not everything

Sending wildlings after the daughter-in-law of the Warden of the North is pretty egregious

41 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If anyone is going to burn King's Landing I think it is Jon Connington.

Agreed

And it'll happen towards the end of the book.

 

If it's not Jon Connington, then it's more likely to be Euron as part of some crazy blood sacrifice.

55 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

But I do think she will misread circumstances in Westeros and will pay dearly for it.

This is true.

But Dany slaughtering close to a million innocent people? The only way I see that happening is if she had a very good reason for doing so. Genocidal pyromania is not a facet of Dany's story in my opinion.

[Many-Faced Votary]

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Sending wildlings after the daughter-in-law of the Warden of the North is pretty egregious

Egregiously awesome?

It was to protect her, who belongs to the realms of men, from one of the vilest fates imaginable.

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The only way I see that happening is

Not at all.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Not everything

Sending wildlings after the daughter-in-law of the Warden of the North is pretty egregious

In your opinion. In mine, not sending whoever you have available to save anyone from a known torturer, murderer, rapist and flayer is what is not only egregious but disgusting and cowardly.