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Is Jon Snow another Jaime Lannister?


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I'm honestly expecting Jon to play a "forgotten hero" type of character. Where he plays a key role in stopping The Others, but is all, but forgotten from history. For all the flaws the tv show had in the later seasons, I can totally picture Jon's story ending with him choosing to spend the remainder of his days beyond the Wall.

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52 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Sending wildlings after the daughter-in-law of the Warden of the North is pretty egregious

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Lord of Bones is not a black brother of his to order around. Melisandre can send him without Jon's consent or approval, she just chose to let him know. 

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36 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'm honestly expect Jon to play a "forgotten hero" type of character. Where he plays a key role in stopping The Others, but is all, but forgotten from history. For all the flaws the tv show had in the later seasons, I can totally picture Jon's story ending with him choosing to spend the remainder of his days beyond the Wall.

Like, say, Last Hero who was the 13th LC? I can see Jon making the hard choice and taking the option that would not be acceptable to most people, he has already done so once. 

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7 hours ago, sifth said:

I'm honestly expect Jon to play a "forgotten hero" type of character. Where he plays a key role in stopping The Others, but is all, but forgotten from history. For all the flaws the tv show had in the later seasons, I can totally picture Jon's story ending with him choosing to spend the remainder of his days beyond the Wall.

For all the many, many flaws the abomination had and how much I disliked it all, I would love an ending like that for him. 

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18 hours ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

And Her Grace, Danarys Targaryen, this an that, etc etc., will fulfill that to a certain degree.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dany as a character. So I am not bashing her at all. But I do think she will misread circumstances in Westeros and will pay dearly for it.

Don't sell our little queen short yet.  She's got some very sound and honest counsel from Barristan Selmy who doesn't sugar coat her father to her.  If Dany misreads anything it will be "home" in Westeros.  She truly is a foreign invader, poor kid.  Then again, it doesn't appear to be her job to unite Westeros, only to conquer it.  Perhaps that is all Westeros really needs from her.  Oh man, I think I just broke my own heart.  

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18 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

That's something we will have to respectfully disagree upon. I never derived that reading from her arc, though I got it very strongly from Cersei's. Neither do I think Dany is even on track to be at King's Landing when it burns, logistically speaking; there is too much to do in Essos. This is particularly true if Euron will make it to the capital, which to me seems far likelier than Oldtown.

 

18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

If anyone is going to burn King's Landing I think it is Jon Connington. We know that he regrets not torching Stoney Sept to kill Robert. We know the tolling of the bells haunts him. We know he's only got so much time left with the Greyscale. It is not exactly a stabilising mixture.

I'm thinking Cersei will torch it once Jon Connington shows up, so a win win all the way around.  

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41 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 

I'm thinking Cersei will torch it once Jon Connington shows up, so a win win all the way around.  

Yay, we’re gonna have your company since you’re going to hell w/ the rest of us! :lol:

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No. Jaime uses the conflict vows as a excuse for his poor behaviour and his nasty nature.

Jaime never had any intention of keeping his oaths, they don't matter, only his wishes. He swore a vow of celibacy to keep fucking Cersei. Even the death of Aerys, Jaime only killed him because he wanted to kill him, not because he needed or wanted to defend the smallfolk, so much so, that he kept the wild fire plot a secret and the lives of those people are still in danger.

Jon is the complete oposite of Jaime. He wants to keep his vows, he cares about them and he tries to do the right thing even when it goes against his wishes.

Jaime is a awful man, that behaves like a child trowing a tantrum because of the mean stares because he killed a king.

Jon is a kid, forced to act like a man, that hold his tantrums inside him, and received mean stares for being a bastard, but unlike Jaime, he learned to let it go.

When Tyrion was imprisoned, Jaime broke all his vows and confronted the hand of the king, broke the kings peace leading an army to rescue his brother.

When Robb went to war, Jon first action was also to broke his vows, but unlike Jaime he returned to the wall even when he had the risk of being executed for desertion.

They are polar oposites. Jaime is the white knight that has a black heart. Jon is a black brother with a pure soul.

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11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

She truly is a foreign invader, poor kid.

I'm just going to address this because I fear the abomination has influenced a lot of people in this regard. Not to say this happened to you; I just mean that your post reminded me of it. :P

Daenerys Targaryen is the last* scion of the House with by far the longest-standing monarchial tradition in Westeros, which is also the one that created the office. (* fAegon will probably end up much more welcomed than not, but there is no doubt that many lords would at least privately doubt he is who he claims to be. No one can deny that Dany is actually a Targaryen.) She was born on Dragonstone, in her ancestral home on Westeros. Additionally, Targaryens are still considered the "rightful" monarchs in much of Westeros, to the point that commoners in King's Landing set up a popular play in which a dragon hatches to eat the arrogant lions who have ruled over all other beasts; and people actually do drink secret toasts to Dany (AFfC Prologue), which was a lie Illyrio told Viserys in AGoT. It made absolutely no sense whatsoever that people were being xenophobic to Daedpan in the abomination, especially without a "Targaryen" man they could rally around instead.

Now, Dany will very much face xenophobia due to the Essosi who will comprise her armies, particularly the Dothraki (considered "savages" by most Westerosi) and the Unsullied (whom we know are thoroughly free, but which would be easy to propagandize as a slave army). But that isn't quite the same as her being a "foreign invader."

 

To address a different part of your post, I think Dany will learn and prove in the end that she is a unifier, not just a conqueror. The War for the Dawn must be a war in which humankind is united. But in this context, the former requires the latter.

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8 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Now, Dany will very much face xenophobia due to the Essosi who will comprise her armies, particularly the Dothraki (considered "savages" by most Westerosi) and the Unsullied (whom we know are thoroughly free, but which would be easy to propagandize as a slave army). But that isn't quite the same as her being a "foreign invader."

To address a different part of your post, I think Dany will learn and prove in the end that she is a unifier, not just a conqueror. The War for the Dawn must be a war in which humankind is united. But in this context, the former requires the latter.

The first bit is what I meant.  Regardless of birth, Dany was raised in Essos and her military strength is in foreign folk.  Dany kicks ass, takes names later.  She has done amazing things elsewhere in the world.  Westeros is a stubborn place.  Too stupid for the most part to recognize the good in a woman, certainly a woman with that much foreign power.  I think they are even too stupid to realize how important her dragons are.  Dany isn't the problem.  Home is the problem.  

The Battle for Dawn is another can of worms...  

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8 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I'm just going to address this because I fear the abomination has influenced a lot of people in this regard. Not to say this happened to you; I just mean that your post reminded me of it. :P

Daenerys Targaryen is the last* scion of the House with by far the longest-standing monarchial tradition in Westeros, which is also the one that created the office. (* fAegon will probably end up much more welcomed than not, but there is no doubt that many lords would at least privately doubt he is who he claims to be. No one can deny that Dany is actually a Targaryen.) She was born on Dragonstone, in her ancestral home on Westeros. Additionally, Targaryens are still considered the "rightful" monarchs in much of Westeros, to the point that commoners in King's Landing set up a popular play in which a dragon hatches to eat the arrogant lions who have ruled over all other beasts; and people actually do drink secret toasts to Dany (AFfC Prologue), which was a lie Illyrio told Viserys in AGoT. It made absolutely no sense whatsoever that people were being xenophobic to Daedpan in the abomination, especially without a "Targaryen" man they could rally around instead.

Now, Dany will very much face xenophobia due to the Essosi who will comprise her armies, particularly the Dothraki (considered "savages" by most Westerosi) and the Unsullied (whom we know are thoroughly free, but which would be easy to propagandize as a slave army). But that isn't quite the same as her being a "foreign invader."

 

To address a different part of your post, I think Dany will learn and prove in the end that she is a unifier, not just a conqueror. The War for the Dawn must be a war in which humankind is united. But in this context, the former requires the latter.

I think Dany could finish up as a tragic character, as opposed to a villain (the Abomination could not decide between the two).

It’s entirely plausible that regardless of how she behaves, she’s hated in Westeros simply for being a woman, and the Mad King’s Daughter;  or Tyrion, base villain that he is, tricks Jon into believing she’s a threat to his family.

The Abomination’s treating Tyrion as hero, rather than the monster he is, upended everything.

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9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The first bit is what I meant.  Regardless of birth, Dany was raised in Essos and her military strength is in foreign folk.  Dany kicks ass, takes names later.  She has done amazing things elsewhere in the world.  Westeros is a stubborn place.  Too stupid for the most part to recognize the good in a woman, certainly a woman with that much foreign power.  I think they are even too stupid to realize how important her dragons are.  Dany isn't the problem.  Home is the problem.  

You're absolutely right that Westeros sucks in those ways. :( I'm hoping that all these agents of significant change -- The Second Long Night, the return of the dragons, the unending wars and political agents of chaos -- will allow them to begin to change for the better. Maybe Dany being one of the heroes who saved Westeros and the world will allow Westerosi to start seeing women and queens regnant in a new light; maybe her dragons will help her elicit the positive change that Aegon V ultimately failed to institute.

As for home, I am almost certain that Dany's new home will end up being with the Starks, whatever form that takes.

Note that I don't rule out the so-called fairytale ending of Daenerys and Jon ruling Westeros together, not least because I don't think it actually is a fairytale ending. Mr. Martin deconstructs and then reconstructs fantasy tropes to examine why they work and to ensure they actually are earned, and he has already answered important questions through their ruling arcs; i.e., "what is Aragorn's tax policy?" But beyond that, ruling Westeros is not what either Jon or Dany want at heart; it is another burden they would take upon themselves. I think it is profoundly sad that these young heroes won't be able to rest even after saving the world, and that makes the idea rather bittersweet to me. I differentiate this from a king who expressly does not want to rule and thus is unfit (e.g., Robert I Baratheon), because I think the two of them would willingly take the role for the good of the realm, if this is the ending we do get.

But your original comment was about home, and my response to that is: I'll eat my books if Dany and the Starklings don't get along well. :laugh: I'm sure there will be political conflict, especially at the start, but I think they'd really like each other on a personal level! Plus, we can't ignore all the foreshadowing and motifs for their relationships, Arya and Dany's in particular (dragons seemed like friends, "they should have killed the masters!", etc.).

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The Battle for Dawn is another can of worms...  

I'm quite excited for this! It will be high fantasy at its best: magic taking center stage after developing in less than ideal ways, heroism that has been developed and earned, unification after so much bitter division, the understanding that humanity is worth fighting for, and so on.

 

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think Dany could finish up as a tragic character, as opposed to a villain (the Abomination could not decide between the two).

It’s entirely plausible that regardless of how she behaves, she’s hated in Westeros simply for being a woman, and the Mad King’s Daughter;  or Tyrion, base villain that he is, tricks Jon into believing she’s a threat to his family.

The Abomination’s treating Tyrion as hero, rather than the monster he is, upended everything.

Tyrion is the "villain" of the Big Six, but that doesn't mean he is the villain, period. I want him to win out over his demons, and I think it is far from impossible. He should not be simply forgiven for what he has done -- especially murdering Shae and consciously raping a sex slave -- but he can help save the realm and the world in the War for the Dawn. It is important to note that he manages some compassion for Penny and a strong dislike of slavery as an institution, even during his darkest period to date.

It seems safe to say that Dany and Jon will be dragonriders for certain. If the third head of the dragon is Tyrion, he has to do better and redeem himself as a hero. I think if any of the Big Six are likely to die, it is Tyrion; and if he does, he will die having sacrificed himself so that there is still a world, because, after all, the world is worth fighting for.

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22 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I want him to win out over his demons

Something we very much disagree on for once! I want him to die screaming… Tywin’s truest son. :D

 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Something we very much disagree on for once! I want him to die screaming… Tywin’s truest son. :D

Fair enough! I know well that Tyrion is not "good" in the end, but I don't think he is truly "evil" either -- or, rather, I do believe he has threads of redemption that he can pull.

I think what you mentioned is important to note: Tyrion is Tywin writ small... And the writ small matters! How much of Tywin's behavior did he mimic to try reducing the ableist abuse he faced? He knew better and did worse, but for a reason that was tied to his own suffering. How much does Tyrion try to do better, from designing Bran's saddle to "she is no longer yours to torment... monster?"

But I fully acknowledge that he can lose himself to his desire for vengeance with no regard for innocents, and then he truly will be Tywin's son. In that case, he must die, hopefully before he is able to corrupt others too much.

In the end, I think that Tyrion losing the better part of himself would be a tragedy: always perceived as the villain because of his stature rather than his character, even when he wants to do better or actually does do better, though with an understanding that he has done bad things for bad reasons.

He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is..."

Tyrion X, A Storm of Swords

 

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2 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Fair enough! I know well that Tyrion is not "good" in the end, but I don't think he is truly "evil" either -- or, rather, I do believe he has threads of redemption that he can pull.

I think what you mentioned is important to note: Tyrion is Tywin writ small... And the writ small matters! How much of Tywin's behavior did he mimic to try reducing the ableist abuse he faced? He knew better and did worse, but for a reason that was tied to his own suffering. How much does Tyrion try to do better, from designing Bran's saddle to "she is no longer yours to torment... monster?"

But I fully acknowledge that he can lose himself to his desire for vengeance with no regard for innocents, and then he truly will be Tywin's son. In that case, he must die, hopefully before he is able to corrupt others too much.

In the end, I think that Tyrion losing the better part of himself would be a tragedy: always perceived as the villain because of his stature rather than his character, even when he wants to do better or actually does do better, though with an understanding that he has done bad things for bad reasons.

He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is..."

Tyrion X, A Storm of Swords

 

Very good points. Especially irt to Tyrion mimicking Tywin’s behaviour in an attempt to maybe earn some respect from his family and especially his father. I would have said love instead of respect, but I think he’s too smart to ever hope for any love from Tywin. I know he’s been through a lot and that earns him a modicum of sympathy from me… but I also think so many went through so much more and so much worse that I find it hard to sympathise or empathise more w/ him. After all, despite all the hardships and suffering he’s endured b/c of something completely out of his control, the way he looks, he’s had and still has privileges the bast majority can’t even dream of. 
I don’t expect him to have a terrible fate… Martin says he’s a villain but he also says Tyrion is his fave. But if he ends up as a hero or the mastermind behind humanity’s final victory or any type of silly cliche like that I’ll be very disappointed. :)

 

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26 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

But your original comment was about home, and my response to that is: I'll eat my books if Dany and the Starklings don't get along well. :laugh: I'm sure there will be political conflict, especially at the start, but I think they'd really like each other on a personal level! Plus, we can't ignore all the foreshadowing and motifs for their relationships, Arya and Dany's in particular (dragons seemed like friends, "they should have killed the masters!", etc.).

I'm quite excited for this! It will be high fantasy at its best: magic taking center stage after developing in less than ideal ways, heroism that has been developed and earned, unification after so much bitter division, the understanding that humanity is worth fighting for, and so on.

Tyrion is the "villain" of the Big Six, but that doesn't mean he is the villain, period. I want him to win out over his demons, and I think it is far from impossible. He should not be simply forgiven for what he has done -- especially murdering Shae and consciously raping a sex slave -- but he can help save the realm and the world in the War for the Dawn. It is important to note that he manages some compassion for Penny and a strong dislike of slavery as an institution, even during his darkest period to date.

It seems safe to say that Dany and Jon will be dragonriders for certain. If the third head of the dragon is Tyrion, he has to do better and redeem himself as a hero. I think if any of the Big Six are likely to die, it is Tyrion; and if he does, he will die having sacrificed himself so that there is still a world, because, after all, the world is worth fighting for.

I would think anyone seeing Dany with the army, navy and air force would just have to be in awe.  To learn how she amassed this following should make their jaws drop.  We haven't seen Dany up with other like minded leaders or even really united with other leaders.  I hope she finds welcome.  

Tyrion Lannister is sure a lot less popular that he used to be.  I love the  guy and the darker he gets the more I relate to him and see he can't keep it up.  He's guilt stricken.  As he should be.  Eventually, Martin will give him something to do other than pout and feel sorry for himself and plot revenge.  This three way face off in Mereen should be just the opportunity to remind Tyrion who he is and what he's capable of.  Then I really hope he comes back to himself.  And Jorah, too.  He's got to snap out of it.  

When I have considered any of the big six dying it's always been Dany or Jon!  Never Tyrion.  I figured Westeros would always need a little man with a long shadow and big mouth.  

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On 3/3/2023 at 8:40 PM, Curled Finger said:

Don't sell our little queen short yet.  She's got some very sound and honest counsel from Barristan Selmy who doesn't sugar coat her father to her.  If Dany misreads anything it will be "home" in Westeros.  She truly is a foreign invader, poor kid.  Then again, it doesn't appear to be her job to unite Westeros, only to conquer it.  Perhaps that is all Westeros really needs from her.  Oh man, I think I just broke my own heart.

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very good points. Especially irt to Tyrion mimicking Tywin’s behaviour in an attempt to maybe earn some respect from his family and especially his father. I would have said love instead of respect, but I think he’s too smart to ever hope for any love from Tywin. I know he’s been through a lot and that earns him a modicum of sympathy from me… but I also think so many went through so much more and so much worse that I find it hard to sympathise or empathise more w/ him. After all, despite all the hardships and suffering he’s endured b/c of something completely out of his control, the way he looks, he’s had and still has privileges the bast majority can’t even dream of. 
I don’t expect him to have a terrible fate… Martin says he’s a villain but he also says Tyrion is his fave. But if he ends up as a hero or the mastermind behind humanity’s final victory or any type of silly cliche like that I’ll be very disappointed. :)

 

I hope he ends up in the belly of a dragon, it will put Jon into berserk mode and earn the moniker of dragonslayer. He should see his kid though, guy deserves that much.

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