Star Wars: Go home (M)Ando(r), the Zillo Beast Is Back (Again!)

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I must've imagined all that MCU vs. DC stuff then I guess.

lmao that's a goalpost move and a half. But even if you pretend there isn't half a century of history of DC and Marvel directly competing with each other on purpose that plays into the perception in a way that makes it totally irrelevant to a SW/Avatar comparison, the reason Marvel is 'beating' DC is because DC's product is regularly crap and people don't trust them anymore. Being crap has never hurt Avatar and even Rise of Skywalker scored a billion, so there's clearly a bit of immunity from that particular problem in both franchises. 


Your other example isn't about franchises. 

 

 

But like: there was an Avatar topic and you went into it complaining about it not being treated like Star Wars, and now there's a Star Wars topic into which you've dragged Avatar. The corrosive discourse is coming from inside the hotdog. 

[hauberk]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

…
Avatar has the advantage of being in the hands of its creator. A creator who has a vision, who's kind of a genius, who knows what he's doing, and who has the power to maintain his independence. A creator who literally built a bubble city on the other side of the world to make his films. He could have shot those films in a warehouse in Saskatoon, but he didn't. It's an 18 hour flight from L.A. to New Zealand and I bet the corporate jet isn't rated for a flight like that over open water. That's not an accident. On the other hand, SW is still trying to figure out the correct organization for its many, many cooks….

I get what you’re saying about having a strong hand at the wheel but at the same time, everything you said before that is what gave us Greedo shooting first and the prequel trilogy as it sits. 
 

I’ve been a Star Wars fan for as long as there’s been Star Wars but it’s not so precious that I’m willing to ignore the weak spots throughout. Personally, I’m willing to forgive quite a bit to continue to explore that universe. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

lmao that's a goalpost move and a half. But even if you pretend there isn't half a century of history of DC and Marvel directly competing with each other on purpose that plays into the perception in a way that makes it totally irrelevant to a SW/Avatar comparison, the reason Marvel is 'beating' DC is because DC's product is regularly crap and people don't trust them anymore. Being crap has never hurt Avatar and even Rise of Skywalker scored a billion, so there's clearly a bit of immunity from that particular problem in both franchises. 

Beside the point. The comparisons did and do get made. Sometimes in bad faith. You can find any number of film reviews and articles that take the opportunity to bash one while praising the other. That's my point.

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

But like: there was an Avatar topic and you went into it complaining about it not being treated like Star Wars, and now there's a Star Wars topic into which you've dragged Avatar. The corrosive discourse is coming from inside the hotdog. 

I'd love to see both franchises on the big screen and I'd love the films to be great. In a previous post, I answered the question about "insulting the SW legacy" by defending the Disney SW output by saying some of it has been pretty good.

To your point, I answered your question about why I think it's a bad idea for these franchises to overlap theatrically. Nothing corrosive about it.  

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, hauberk said:

I get what you’re saying about having a strong hand at the wheel but at the same time, everything you said before that is what gave us Greedo shooting first and the prequel trilogy as it sits. 

Truthfully, I was never much bothered by the Greedo thing. I might not have even noticed it when I saw it for the first time. Literally one of the most memorable moments of my life was seeing the re-release of ANH back in '97. Opening night. Packed theater full of mental patients. My god, I've never seen a theater erupt the way it did that night when "STAR WARS" blasted on the screen after the "long time ago..." script. I've never had more fun watching a movie. Before the dark times...

I've even defended the prequels, warts and all. If you could take the best qualities of the prequels and the better aspects of the ST, you'd have a winner. I'm just not sure they're capable of that at the moment. 

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I’ve been a Star Wars fan for as long as there’s been Star Wars but it’s not so precious that I’m willing to ignore the weak spots throughout. Personally, I’m willing to forgive quite a bit to continue to explore that universe. 

They'll continue to explore it. I just think its hiatus as a theatrical phenomenon will continue for a while.

[Werthead]

I think the main thing hurting Star Wars right now is possibly the weight of the sheer number of shows and the continuity involved, and people tripping up on what show is set when and what characters are walking around in which time frame and which are dead (and Maul showing up in Solo confused the fuck out of casual viewers who thought he'd bought it in The Phantom Menace, and were trying to work out if Solo was somehow set before TPM). I think this is a bigger problem than in the MCU which is almost entirely moving forwards linearly (obviously Black Widow being an exception, but even that had an epilogue set in the present day) despite having a bigger problem of far more films, more characters and more material to get familiar with.

As I've said before, I think one of the things that used to excite people about Star Wars was its scarcity. For the first 22 years of its existence, we just had the three movies and a bunch of ancillary stuff, some of it very good but most meh or awful. Then up until the 38th year of its existence we had just six films and one animated show of note. In the eight years since then, we've had five more films, four more animated shows of note and soon to be five live-action TV shows. That's quite an explosion of content to follow, and them all bouncing around the timeline I think is making them slightly trickier to follow for the large majority of the audience, the people who like Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan and think lightsabers are neat and coo over Baby Yoda, but who wouldn't be able to sit down for a serious conversation about the best version of Knights of the Old Republic II or if the Yuuzhan Vong are a good idea or not.

I'm not sure Star Wars has the legs really to become a forever franchise in that way. It feels like the best thing for Star Wars is to rest it for a decade or so and then tell some new stories on a limited basis and then rest it again to let enthusiasm for new material to build up again.

[hauberk]

38 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Truthfully, I was never much bothered by the Greedo thing. I might not have even noticed it when I saw it for the first time. Literally one of the most memorable moments of my life was seeing the re-release of ANH back in '97. Opening night. Packed theater full of mental patients. My god, I've never seen a theater erupt the way it did that night when "STAR WARS" blasted on the screen after the "long time ago..." script. I've never had more fun watching a movie. Before the dark times...

I've even defended the prequels, warts and all. If you could take the best qualities of the prequels and the better aspects of the ST, you'd have a winner. I'm just not sure they're capable of that at the moment. 

They'll continue to explore it. I just think its hiatus as a theatrical phenomenon will continue for a while.

I had a similar experience with the releases - however, sometimes, one can have too much control (also see Spielberg digitally replacing the FBI guns with Walkie Talkies in ET).   Some of those release tweaks weren’t real even added flavor. Greedo, though, was something else altogether since that was a recut for home video. 
 

Certainly, there were moments of brilliance in the PT and in the ST but for my money, there was more in the ST than the PT. 

[RumHam]

I'd say there are moments of "ok, this isn't so bad" in the prequels. Brilliance? Nah. Until Rise of Skywalker came out "I like the music" was about the nicest thing I could say about them. 

[hauberk]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

I'd say there are moments of "ok, this isn't so bad" in the prequels. Brilliance? Nah. Until Rise of Skywalker came out "I like the music" was about the nicest thing I could say about them. 

Brilliance may be a little strong but I think that the big duel in TPM was excellent and there were a few(er) great moments in AotC - primarily related to the clones (also, I don’t believe that there was a Star Wars fan in the theatre that didn’t cheer when all of the lightsabers lit up in the arena).  RotS had the most bright spots for me (ironic, I know). The relationship between Obi Wan and Cody and the order 66 montage. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

41 minutes ago, Werthead said:

As I've said before, I think one of the things that used to excite people about Star Wars was its scarcity. For the first 22 years of its existence, we just had the three movies and a bunch of ancillary stuff, some of it very good but most meh or awful. Then up until the 38th year of its existence we had just six films and one animated show of note. In the eight years since then, we've had five more films, four more animated shows of note and soon to be five live-action TV shows. That's quite an explosion of content to follow, and them all bouncing around the timeline I think is making them slightly trickier to follow for the large majority of the audience, the people who like Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan and think lightsabers are neat and coo over Baby Yoda, but who wouldn't be able to sit down for a serious conversation about the best version of Knights of the Old Republic II or if the Yuuzhan Vong are a good idea or not.

It's possible that the flood of recent streaming content is a bit of a historical accident. You have Disney launching their streaming service at exactly the same time movie box office and parks tourism both vaporize because of the pandemic. "Moar content!" was the command and the studio delivered. Now that the service has been launched and other revenue streams are recovering, more care being taken with fewer shows could happen.

But I think you definitely have a point here. Look at James Bond. They've averaged one film roughly every two years since 1962, with more recent films having longer gaps between them. No TV show tie-ins or extended universe stuff, although that might still happen. There've been some ups and downs but they've always found an audience and left fans waiting for the next one. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 minutes ago, hauberk said:

Brilliance may be a little strong but I think that the big duel in TPM was excellent and there were a few(er) great moments in AotC - primarily related to the clones (also, I don’t believe that there was a Star Wars fan in the theatre that didn’t cheer when all of the lightsabers lit up in the arena).  RotS had the most bright spots for me (ironic, I know). The relationship between Obi Wan and Cody and the order 66 montage. 

Hell yeah. Obi Wan riding around on that giant bird-iguana beastie was cool. That opening shot of the battle of Coruscant is just epic. 

Mostly the scenes where there's little to no dialogue. Yeah. 

[RumHam]

14 minutes ago, hauberk said:

Brilliance may be a little strong but I think that the big duel in TPM was excellent 

I still think the music was doing a lot of heavy lifting there. It's a high point, sure. But personally I prefer Maul's duel in Rebels. Or the ones in the OT where like, the people talk and there are emotional stakes. 

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there were a few(er) great moments in AotC - primarily related to the clones

Sorry, but you just reminded me about that stupid title and I had to stop and giggle for a bit. I don't want this to be mistaken as one of my main complaints about the prequels, but what the hell was he thinking. Imagine for a second you went to see a movie called Attack of the Sharks and the sharks only showed up in the last 20 minutes, to help the good guys. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I still think the music was doing a lot of heavy lifting there. It's a high point, sure. But personally I prefer Maul's duel in Rebels. Or the ones in the OT where like, the people talk and there are emotional stakes. 

That what you like? the loquacious type?

I think the lightsaber battle at the end of TPM is the best of the saga. An opinion I stand by despite being scourged for it on these boards at least once. Gotta hand it to George, whatever his failings as a film maker, he knows how to put an action sequence together. 

Maul had no backstory then. He was just some kind of quasi-demon looking thing with a double bladed red lightsaber. And he's taking on two Jedi at once? Holy crap that guy must be evil!

There have been some good ones since, mostly from the Clone Wars cartoon. And yeah, the final confrontation between Kenobi and Maul is pretty amazing, though not really for the battle, which is over in 2 seconds. There's a cool Easter egg of sorts involved there though. 

[Kalbear]

34 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

That what you like? the loquacious type?

I think the lightsaber battle at the end of TPM is the best of the saga. An opinion I stand by despite being scourged for it on these boards at least once. Gotta hand it to George, whatever his failings as a film maker, he knows how to put an action sequence together. 

It is worth noting that Lucas did not actually put the TPM lightsaber fight together. That would be Nick Gillard. 

That is a very important point in general - that Lucas's best and most successful works have always been when he has been a contributor and not the only important person in the room. Whether it be his wife, Kasdan, Spielberg, or later Gillard and folks - he does significantly greater when other people can call him on his bullshit. Heck, that was a big deal about the OT - both Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford were very good at telling him how no one in their right mind can say the kind of dialog he's asking for, and...it got changed!

Lucas is a visionary in terms of filmmaking and special effects. He is a wonder when it comes to worldbuilding and being able to bring artistic vision to reality. He does a pretty decent job with making 'universal' stories. But he has a lot of weaknesses and most of them are when he doesn't collaborate. 

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

It is worth noting that Lucas did not actually put the TPM lightsaber fight together. That would be Nick Gillard. 

That is a very important point in general - that Lucas's best and most successful works have always been when he has been a contributor and not the only important person in the room. Whether it be his wife, Kasdan, Spielberg, or later Gillard and folks - he does significantly greater when other people can call him on his bullshit. Heck, that was a big deal about the OT - both Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford were very good at telling him how no one in their right mind can say the kind of dialog he's asking for, and...it got changed!

Lucas is a visionary in terms of filmmaking and special effects. He is a wonder when it comes to worldbuilding and being able to bring artistic vision to reality. He does a pretty decent job with making 'universal' stories. But he has a lot of weaknesses and most of them are when he doesn't collaborate. 

 

Yeah well, George hired that Nick Gillard guy so, nya! But I get your point. "It takes a village, yada, yada". Gillard was the stunt coordinator. He didn't direct or edit those scenes did he?

Also worth noting, Lucas came up with Indiana Jones and produced that film. We nearly got "The Adventures of Indiana Smith" directed by Phillip Kaufman, but history played out differently.

As a creative producer and story/concept guy, Lucas is damn good. 

 

[Kalbear]

Nick Gillard choreographed the whole sequence in tpm. And ran through it on set, and got to say if it didn't meet the mark.

Lucas' contribution there was to make final says on the scene and edits, but most of the work by then was done.

He was responsible for rots "its over anakin, I have the high ground" if you want to give him credit for something. He was also responsible for getting rid of an incredibly cool fight obi wan had vs grievous' bodyguards that was super complex.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

15 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Nick Gillard choreographed the whole sequence in tpm. And ran through it on set, and got to say if it didn't meet the mark.

Lucas' contribution there was to make final says on the scene and edits, but most of the work by then was done.

He was responsible for rots "its over anakin, I have the high ground" if you want to give him credit for something. He was also responsible for getting rid of an incredibly cool fight obi wan had vs grievous' bodyguards that was super complex.

I know, right? George is amazing for hiring that guy.