Southron Ambitions

[Roswell]

Lady Barbrey Dustin entertains Theon Greyjoy with a very fascinating story.  Those pages introduced us to Rickard Stark's ambitions to build marriage and military alliances with House Tully and House Baratheon.  This conspiracy is now known as "Southron Ambitions."  If true, the goal of the conspiracy was to put Robert on the throne with Brandon as his Hand. 

A Game of Thrones gave us the following quote:

"That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.  "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

So it was all meant for Brandon.  Maybe even the office of Hand of the King.  It seems to me that the Baratheons and the Starks had been planning to join their houses to remove the Targaryens from power.  It could be an innocent comment from Ned but I do not think so.  Rickard, Brandon, Robert, Hoster, *Catelyn, and Lyanna were all guilty of treason.  They are all dead and have paid for their crimes.  George may give us a backstory and then we will know for sure. 

 

 

 

*Stoneheart is only a shadow of what Cat was. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Lady Barbrey Dustin entertains Theon Greyjoy with a very fascinating story.

And Barbrey is reliable because?

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

hose pages introduced us to Rickard Stark's ambitions to build marriage and military alliances with House Tully and House Baratheon.  This conspiracy is now known as "Southron Ambitions."

Marriage Pact =/= Conspiracy.

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

If true, the goal of the conspiracy was to put Robert on the throne with Brandon as his Hand. 

That's a massive stretch from what Barbrey said and what Barbrey said isn't even reliable in the first place.

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

A Game of Thrones gave us the following quote:

"That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.  "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

So it was all meant for Brandon.

This quote has been taken out of its context and deliberately misrepresented. Ned is talking about how Brandon would fair better in his place because Brandon was raised as the heir. It is quite obvious that it is not mean to be taken literally.

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

It seems to me that the Baratheons and the Starks had been planning to join their houses to remove the Targaryens from power.

Well of course it would. Because you want to paint the Targaryens as the victims so you can justify what Aerys did. And even if they were wanting to remove the Targaryens, so what? The Targaryens took Westeros by force in the first place.

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

It could be an innocent comment from Ned but I do not think so.

Well most of us and likely the author himself do think it is an innocent comment from Ned.

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Rickard, Brandon, Robert, Hoster, *Catelyn, and Lyanna were all guilty of treason.  They are all dead and have paid for their crimes.

Hahahahahahaha

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

George may give us a backstory and then we will know for sure. 

Yeah, know for sure that this 'theory' is complete crap.

[Many-Faced Votary]

The Southron Ambitions theory relies too much on the possibility of it being true, without much of anything substantiating it. There is no good reason to believe that there was an attempt to depose the Targaryen dynasty prior to Robert's Rebellion.

I would be fully willing to believe that there was an attempted conspiracy to dethrone Aerys: one headed by Rhaegar. In fact, it seems extremely likely that Rhaegar had successfully managed to call an informal Great Council through the Tourney at Harrenhal, but Varys ruined that plan completely by telling Aerys about it, making it sufficiently urgent to convince the Mad King to leave the Red Keep for the first time since the Defiance at Duskendale.

And then Rhaegar himself ended any possibility of the inevitable rebellion seeking to install him on the Iron Throne, through the monumentally stupid act of kidnapping Lyanna.

In any case, it was the combination of Rhaegar's stupidity and Aerys's tyranny that resulted in Robert's Rebellion in the form we saw it. Now, I won't pretend that the rebellion was purely just and good, as it wasn't until the high lords started to suffer that revolt actually happened; but it was done for very good reason, and was fundamentally necessary to remove an increasingly insane despot from power. Aerys II violated feudal contract, made a mockery of justice, and was not going to stop without being stopped by force.

This theory seems to popular among the Targ-obsessed crowd, perhaps because you erroneously believe it means that the Targaryens did nothing wrong? You can believe in this evidence-free grand conspiracy if you'd like, but even if it were true, Aerys II relinquished his right to the Iron Throne the second he murdered a lord paramount and his heir without cause or even a semblance of a trial.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The Southron Ambitions theory relies too much on the possibility of it being true, without much of anything substantiating it. There is no good reason to believe that there was an attempt to depose the Targaryen dynasty prior to Robert's Rebellion.

Well said. Also worthy of mention is the fact that, if there was a deliberate move to make alliances through marriages, that does not a conspiracy make. I would imagine these marriages were fairly common. To go from that to "it was an evil plot to depose Good King Aerys and kill all the Targs" is ridiculous, unsupported by the text, and a dumb af argument. Then when you see who are the people making these claims it all makes sense. 

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I would be fully willing to believe that there was an attempted conspiracy to dethrone Aerys: one headed by Rhaegar. In fact, it seems extremely likely that Rhaegar had successfully managed to call an informal Great Council through the Tourney at Harrenhal, but Varys ruined that plan completely by telling Aerys about it, making it sufficiently urgent to convince the Mad King to leave the Red Keep for the first time since the Defiance at Duskendale.

Precisely. But do you know what else is curious? It doesn't seem that the TARGAs are necessarily big Targaryen fans... Given who they defend and cheer on, it seems to me they just really like a certain type of character and Dany. 

Here are some of the characters they defend systematically: Ramsay, Walder, Roose, Marsh, Aerys, Littlefinger, Slynt, Viserys..

Never a word about other great Targaryens... Baelor Breakspear, Egg, Maekar, etc etc. 

So they like the murderers, rapists, traitors, and Dany. Why do they even like Dany since she's nothing like the characters they are so keen on defending? She doesn't deserve to be in such vile company.

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

And then Rhaegar himself ended any possibility of the inevitable rebellion seeking to install him on the Iron Throne, through the monumentally stupid act of kidnapping Lyanna.

Allegedly! 

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

In any case, it was the combination of Rhaegar's stupidity and Aerys's tyranny that resulted in Robert's Rebellion in the form we saw it. Now, I won't pretend that the rebellion was purely just and good, as it wasn't until the high lords started to suffer that revolt actually happened; but it was done for very good reason, and was fundamentally necessary to remove an increasingly insane despot from power. Aerys II violated feudal contract, made a mockery of justice, and was not going to stop without being stopped by force.

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

This theory seems to popular among the Targ-obsessed crowd, perhaps because you erroneously believe it means that the Targaryens did nothing wrong? You can believe in this evidence-free grand conspiracy if you'd like, but even if it were true, Aerys II relinquished his right to the Iron Throne the second he murdered a lord paramount and his heir without cause or even a semblance of a trial.

The level of reading comprehension fail is off the charts, be it real or just "I'm gonna pretend I can't understand the text just to make my dislike for certain characters and houses cleaar" and the latter, in and of itself is astonishing to me.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

2 hours ago, Roswell said:

Lady Barbrey Dustin entertains Theon Greyjoy with a very fascinating story.  Those pages introduced us to Rickard Stark's ambitions to build marriage and military alliances with House Tully and House Baratheon.  This conspiracy is now known as "Southron Ambitions."  If true, the goal of the conspiracy was to put Robert on the throne with Brandon as his Hand. 

A Game of Thrones gave us the following quote:

"That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.  "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

So it was all meant for Brandon.  Maybe even the office of Hand of the King.  It seems to me that the Baratheons and the Starks had been planning to join their houses to remove the Targaryens from power.  It could be an innocent comment from Ned but I do not think so.  Rickard, Brandon, Robert, Hoster, *Catelyn, and Lyanna were all guilty of treason.  They are all dead and have paid for their crimes.  George may give us a backstory and then we will know for sure. 

 

 

 

*Stoneheart is only a shadow of what Cat was. 

This is where we should begin looking for more evidence for the conspiracy.  For now it is another conditional justification for the executions of the Starks.  They deserved death if they were plotting to push the Targaryens out.  They are guilty of treason and no government should tolerate treason. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

I would spare Lyanna. She was only being used by her father.  

[SeanF]

IMHO, the Targaryens were skating on thin ice, from the time of Aegon V.  His efforts to improve the condition of the lower classes were bitterly resented by a large part of the nobility.  Aerys II was probably a lot more popular initially, when he and Tywin rowed back on those reforms.  The nobility only began to turn against Aerys, once it became clear that he was an increasingly erratic tyrant towards them.

Even if we accept the premise that Rickard, Brandon, et al were engaged in a widespread conspiracy to bring down the dynasty, it would not make Rhaegar's behaviour any less stupid, nor Aeyrs' any less bad.  Aerys loved raping and mauling his wife, and burning people in wildfire.  And, Rickard, according to the laws and customs of his society, was entitled to a trial by combat.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

47 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

This is where we should begin looking for more evidence for the conspiracy.  For now it is another conditional justification for the executions of the Starks.  They deserved death if they were plotting to push the Targaryens out.  They are guilty of treason and no government should tolerate treason. 

 

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I would spare Lyanna. She was only being used by her father.  

Hey, off topic and I don’t want to intrude in your private lives and all, but you guys live together? Because whenever I see one of you I almost always see the other as well. If not, I think you get along just fine so could possibly make great roommates.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

This is where we should begin looking for more evidence for the conspiracy.

Good luck because there isn't any.

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

They deserved death if they were plotting to push the Targaryens out. 

A clean execution, maybe. Not what Aerys did. And they did nothing wrong anyway.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Good luck because there isn't any.

A clean execution, maybe. Not what Aerys did. And they did nothing wrong anyway.

If Rickard had fought and lost a legitimate duel, then that would have been accepted as fair, by most people.  Aerys cheated.

The subsequent behaviour of men like Tywin, Hoster Tully, and Robert, does not alter the fact that Aerys threw the first punches.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Ah the delusional anti-Starkers at it again

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, King Benedict Justman I said:

Ah the delusional anti-Starkers at it again

When will it ever stop?

[Lord of Oldstones]

Southron ambition is boring topic and term.

Its Robert that asks for Lyanna's hand. No political ambition played that match.

Now, Hoster is very marriage savy. He wants best for his house so Stark and Lannister match for his daughters to protect his Kingdom. Brandon-Catelyn match must have come from him. He also wants Arianne Martell for his son and a Redwyne for his brother.

[Darth Sidious]

Conspiring against the monarch is an act of treason and punishable by death. I believe Varys and the birds made Brandon talk. Something came out of the interview which led Varys to the plot. Rickard was lured to his death. Rickard was not leaving King’s Landing. It’s a sad tragedy if he’s innocent of any intentions to betray Aerys. Death is the correct punishment if he was plotting against the Targaryens. He got caught in the process of preparing a rebellion. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

This is where we should begin looking for more evidence for the conspiracy.  For now it is another conditional justification for the executions of the Starks.  They deserved death if they were plotting to push the Targaryens out.  They are guilty of treason and no government should tolerate treason. 

Just now, Darth Sidious said:

Conspiring against the monarch is an act of treason and punishable by death. I believe Varys and the birds made Brandon talk. Something came out of the interview which led Varys to the plot. Rickard was lured to his death. Rickard was not leaving King’s Landing. It’s a sad tragedy if he’s innocent of any intentions to betray Aerys. Death is the correct punishment if he was plotting against the Targaryens. 

. . .

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Conspiring against the monarch is an act of treason and punishable by death. I believe Varys and the birds made Brandon talk. Something came out of the interview which led Varys to the plot. Rickard was lured to his death. Rickard was not leaving King’s Landing. It’s a sad tragedy if he’s innocent of any intentions to betray Aerys. Death is the correct punishment if he was plotting against the Targaryens. He got caught in the process of preparing a rebellion. 

Now you’re twisting the text you’re so unfamiliar with into a pretzel to find a “justification” for the vile murders of Rickard and Brandon by Aerys the Just. Allow me to explain something to you… IF Brandon confessed to some plot to overthrow the king under torture and Aerys decided to execute him, he would have been right and acting within his rights as king. But he didn’t do that, did he? No. He lured Rickard and then murdered father and son in a gruesome and evil spectacle that I’m sure must have horrified many, including some Targaryen loyalists. Because Aerys was not only mad but very stupid as well. 
Do you know why there are no hints or clues to a confession or even torture? Because there was no confession b/c there was no plot. And it’s so much worse than just murder, it’s pure insanity and cruelty because that’s how Aerys got off.

And since we’re here having this chat, let me ask you… how do you feel about the way Aerys used to treat Rhaella? How do you feel about him sexually assaulting her and beating her and biting her and gods know what else? Given the people you usually defend, I think I know the answer, but would still like to hear it from you since I don’t want to be unfair here. 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Now you’re twisting the text you’re so unfamiliar with into a pretzel to find a “justification” for the vile murders of Rickard and Brandon by Aerys the Just. Allow me to explain something to you… IF Brandon confessed to some plot to overthrow the king under torture and Aerys decided to execute him, he would have been right and acting within his rights as king. But he didn’t do that, did he? No. He lured Rickard and then murdered father and son in a gruesome and evil spectacle that I’m sure must have horrified many, including some Targaryen loyalists. Because Aerys was not only mad but very stupid as well. 
Do you know why there are no hints or clues to a confession or even torture? Because there was no confession b/c there was no plot. And it’s so much worse than just murder, it’s pure insanity and cruelty because that’s how Aerys got off.

And since we’re here having this chat, let me ask you… how do you feel about the way Aerys used to treat Rhaella? How do you feel about him sexually assaulting her and beating her and biting her and gods know what else? Given the people you usually defend, I think I know the answer, but would still like to hear it from you since I don’t want to be unfair here. 

The awful thing is that had Rhaella been captured by the rebels (apart from Ned), her fate would have been just as bad.  She was in a cleft stick, whichever side won.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

33 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Conspiring against the monarch is an act of treason and punishable by death. I believe Varys and the birds made Brandon talk. Something came out of the interview which led Varys to the plot. Rickard was lured to his death. Rickard was not leaving King’s Landing. It’s a sad tragedy if he’s innocent of any intentions to betray Aerys. Death is the correct punishment if he was plotting against the Targaryens. He got caught in the process of preparing a rebellion. 

Believe all you want, it doesn’t make it true

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The awful thing is that had Rhaella been captured by the rebels (apart from Ned), her fate would have been just as bad.  She was in a cleft stick, whichever side won.

I’m not so sure… I don’t think they would have killed her. Maybe send her someplace to live out her days or something like that But even if she’s executed, I’m positive she wouldn’t have been sexually assaulted, beaten, bitten, etc. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not so sure… I don’t think they would have killed her. Maybe send her someplace to live out her days or something like that But even if she’s executed, I’m positive she wouldn’t have been sexually assaulted, beaten, bitten, etc. 

unless Tywin sent Gregor or Armory Lorch after her