Jump to content

Southron Ambitions


Roswell

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

this is saying that Rickard had a separate conspiracy for Robert Baratheon to overthrow the Targaryens with Brandon as the hand? And Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully were part of it?

Yes. It’s all based on the marriage pacts made at the time and this:

ADwD, The Turncloak

“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon’s brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me.”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I'm confused about the premise: the Rhaegar conspiracy is pretty well-established; this is saying that Rickard had a separate conspiracy for Robert Baratheon to overthrow the Targaryens with Brandon as the hand? And Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully were part of it? I think, had they really been considering overthrowing Aerys, Brandon and Rickard would not have been so reckless as to go to King's Landing without their supposed army. "Rhaegar just kidnapped Lyanna" "Ok dad, let's go with just us and some of our men to the capital and ask very firmly for him to give her back and then we'll take her back and in a couple years, Robert and Jon and Hoster will then ride with us back to the capital and then we will overthrow Aerys" this seems illogical and against all the character's motivations. But maybe they were gonna be part of installing Rhaegar until he went "I need to fulfill the prophecy" mode and kidnapped their sister and their betrothed

This one seems to make more sense, considering Walter Whent's sister (or cousin?) Minisa was married to Hoster, and Hoster's daughter was betrothed to Brandon and his other daughter was married to Jon Arryn and Brandon's sister was betrothed to Robert. So they were one big happy family, holding a tournament conspiring with Rhaegar. Brandon or Robert being Rhaegar's hand would have been interesting, but I feel like somebody would have mentioned that this was the plan in the POVs. 

The "southron ambitions" thing is based on a single line in ADwD from Barbery Dustin, of all people, complaining about how she should have married a Stark except that Rickard and his maester had "southron ambitions", apparently referring to the marriage alliances and wardship agreements between houses Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon that had been established way back in AGoT, and specifically to Brandon's betrothal to Cat (since she had wanted to marry Brandon herself).

This has been spun by fans into a grand conspiracy against Aerys on the basis of no more evidence than, first, the later rebellion by those four houses, even though the rebellion is perfectly well-explained by the relevant circumstances, and, second, a nonspecific line by an embittered widow who seems to resent everything that happens south of the Neck.

The idea of a Rhaegar conspiracy to depose Aerys - or at the least a conspiracy of the type which took place before the Rebellion - first appeared, as far as I'm aware, in A World of Ice and Fire, some years after the original "southron ambitions" line in ADwD. This has been fed back into the same mill, despite obvious flaws in the reasoning: Rhaegar's alleged conspiracy was supposed to launch at Harrenhal, yet there's no indication that the Tullys, Arryns or Rickard Stark were even there, even ignoring what Rhaegar does at Harrenhal later to piss off his supposed projected allies.

I don't think it takes a lot to dismantle the "southron ambitions" conspiracy theory: as above, I don't think this was anything more than four houses looking for advantageous networking opportunities (at a time when the Lannisters and Martells were doing the same). I don't think "southron ambitions" need mean any more than that, for pretty much the first time in generations, the Starks were taking an active interest in what was going on in the south and trying to strike up friendships with southern great houses.

Something else we don't know is exactly when the relevant marriage alliances or wardship arrangements were made. It seems likely that Robert and Ned were sent to foster with Jon Arryn before 277-278 and the Brandon betrothal may have been made before this date too. This is significant for two reasons: firstly, Steffon Baratheon was still alive, must have consented to the wardship arrangement, and was considered to be an Aerys loyalist, to the point where he was the only great lord Aerys actually seemed to trust. So the inclusion of him in a conspiracy to dethrone Aerys would seem suicidal on the Arryn-Stark part, thereby suggesting there was a perfectly innocent reason for wanting Robert and Ned to ward with Jon Arryn in the first place. There's no need for a conspiracy to explain it.

Secondly because in the novels, it was fairly heavily implied that while Aerys might always have been a bit of a tool, he only became a problem after Duskendale, which was in 277 - and while Rhaegar was still only eighteen. So what reason would there be for a conspiracy to kick off before this date planning to dethrone Aerys and replace him with Rhaegar? Retcons can happen, but it seems unlikely that this was on GRRM's mind when this part of the plot was developed. The establishment of Aerys as unstable prior to Duskendale only really appeared, again, in A World of Ice and Fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't really work for there to have been a conspiracy to place Robert on the throne.  When did it begin?  During the War of the Ninepenny Kings when all these Lords met became friends?  When Robert was a boy?  After Robert was already Lord of Storms End and fostered in the Vale?

If there was a conspiracy to get rid of Aerys early when these Lords first met, the best time to do it would have been the War of the Ninepenny Kings, "accidents" happen during war.

Steffon would likely need to be involved in any plot, as he would have made the agreement with Jon Arryn to foster Robert.  How much would you trust the King's cousin and later Hand in a plot against the King?  If Steffon wasn't involved in said plot, it seems very coincidental that Robert ended up with Jon.  And why would Jon be so willing to risk everything to put Robert on the throne?  I can understand why Rickard might risk everything to make his daughter queen, but not Jon.

And why would Jon, Rickard and Hoster not be more prepared when the time was approaching?  Other marriage alliances could have / should have been made.  Elbert Arryn should have been betrothed, as well as Lysa and Edmure Tully.  Or Stannis.  They seem to have missed obvious opportunities to strengthen their position prior to going to war.  Additionally, the "abduction" of Lyanna gave them the perfect excuse to move to overthrow Aerys - why would Brandon and his party go to King's Landing, or Rickard go with 200 men if they planned to go to war all along?

If the conspiracy starts with Jon, Rickard and Hoster what other houses did they plan to possibly involve?  Were the Redwynes going to be part of the plot?  After all Hoster tried to wed Brynden to Bethany Redwyne.  What about Tywin Lannister?  He and Hoster tried to form a marriage alliance; would Hoster trust the former best friend and former Hand to be part of the plot?  Tywin could easy have used any information or suspicion of a plot to regain favor and his position as Hand.  And how would Jon and Rickard feel about Hoster apparently trying to bring Tywin in?

Additionally, the Princess of Dorn appears to have been the first to try and make a move to form a marriage alliance with another Lord Paramount.  We know from Oberyn's story that his mother took them to Casterly Rock to try and betroth one or both of her two remaining children to a Lannister.  How come she and Dorne are not accused of Western ambitions?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon’s brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me.”

 

But this theory is that they also wanted to depose Rhaegar, the new king they were theoretically supporting, in favor of putting Robert on the throne? Why would there be two different conspiracies to dethrone Aerys?

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Secondly because in the novels, it was fairly heavily implied that while Aerys might always have been a bit of a tool, he only became a problem after Duskendale, which was in 277 - and while Rhaegar was still only eighteen. So what reason would there be for a conspiracy to kick off before this date planning to dethrone Aerys and replace him with Rhaegar? Retcons can happen, but it seems unlikely that this was on GRRM's mind when this part of the plot was developed. The establishment of Aerys as unstable prior to Duskendale only really appeared, again, in A World of Ice and Fire.

I know in the world book, the tourney at Harrenhal where they plotted with Rhaegar was in 281; it doesn't make sense that they would have had a more fleshed-out conspiracy before that as that's what the tourney was about: making the conspiracy. Having two different conspiracies, one to put Robert on the throne and one to put Rhaegar on the throne, coexisting and overlapping, evidence by Barbery Ryswell talking about wanting to hook up with Brandon Stark more but "damn it, he's marrying Cat", doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

But this theory is that they also wanted to depose Rhaegar, the new king they were theoretically supporting, in favor of putting Robert on the throne? Why would there be two different conspiracies to dethrone Aerys?

The idea of multiple, independent conspiracies against the same king is not too far-fetched in itself: we see at least two unconnected ones against Robert and probably more depending on exactly who is telling the truth about their intentions.

But that's Robert: a king whose very ascent to the throne caused issues, with a wife from a rival house which is arguably more powerful than the crown itself. It's a different situation to Aerys, whose legitimacy is unquestioned, whose wife is completely under his thumb, and who at least early on is running a pretty strong and capable government. Aerys's early reign doesn't seem like a natural breeding-ground for rebellion and we don't have any real evidence that there were any in the offing.

We could perhaps do with more information on what the Darklyns were trying to pull, but that that came out of nowhere by a fairly minor house suggests that there wasn't anything bigger brewing at that stage.

1 minute ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I know in the world book, the tourney at Harrenhal where they plotted with Rhaegar was in 281; it doesn't make sense that they would have had a more fleshed-out conspiracy before that as that's what the tourney was about: making the conspiracy. Having two different conspiracies, one to put Robert on the throne and one to put Rhaegar on the throne, coexisting and overlapping, evidence by Barbery Ryswell talking about wanting to hook up with Brandon Stark more but "damn it, he's marrying Cat", doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

I agree: while I do think there was an obvious attempt to improve relations between the STAB houses, with the possible intention of forming a political bloc, there's no evidence that there was any treasonous intent there, or even that this was anything particularly out of the ordinary course of events in great house politics. The idea that there was a full-fledged conspiracy directed against the king and/or Rhaegar by these houses is generally perpetuated on these boards by Targ/Dany fans who seek to use it as justification for the way Aerys treated Brandon and Rickard, i.e. the assumption that they were plotting treason so they had it coming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Green Stag said:

It doesn't really work for there to have been a conspiracy to place Robert on the throne.  When did it begin?  During the War of the Ninepenny Kings when all these Lords met became friends?  When Robert was a boy?  After Robert was already Lord of Storms End and fostered in the Vale?

If there was a conspiracy to get rid of Aerys early when these Lords first met, the best time to do it would have been the War of the Ninepenny Kings, "accidents" happen during war.

Steffon would likely need to be involved in any plot, as he would have made the agreement with Jon Arryn to foster Robert.  How much would you trust the King's cousin and later Hand in a plot against the King?  If Steffon wasn't involved in said plot, it seems very coincidental that Robert ended up with Jon.  And why would Jon be so willing to risk everything to put Robert on the throne?  I can understand why Rickard might risk everything to make his daughter queen, but not Jon.

And why would Jon, Rickard and Hoster not be more prepared when the time was approaching?  Other marriage alliances could have / should have been made.  Elbert Arryn should have been betrothed, as well as Lysa and Edmure Tully.  Or Stannis.  They seem to have missed obvious opportunities to strengthen their position prior to going to war.  Additionally, the "abduction" of Lyanna gave them the perfect excuse to move to overthrow Aerys - why would Brandon and his party go to King's Landing, or Rickard go with 200 men if they planned to go to war all along?

If the conspiracy starts with Jon, Rickard and Hoster what other houses did they plan to possibly involve?  Were the Redwynes going to be part of the plot?  After all Hoster tried to wed Brynden to Bethany Redwyne.  What about Tywin Lannister?  He and Hoster tried to form a marriage alliance; would Hoster trust the former best friend and former Hand to be part of the plot?  Tywin could easy have used any information or suspicion of a plot to regain favor and his position as Hand.  And how would Jon and Rickard feel about Hoster apparently trying to bring Tywin in?

Additionally, the Princess of Dorn appears to have been the first to try and make a move to form a marriage alliance with another Lord Paramount.  We know from Oberyn's story that his mother took them to Casterly Rock to try and betroth one or both of her two remaining children to a Lannister.  How come she and Dorne are not accused of Western ambitions?

 

Well, let's take it from a starting point being the War of the Ninepenny Kings:

This war brings several figures from the Great Houses of Westeros together: Tywin Lannister had served as cupbearer to Aegon V, where he met Prince Aerys and his cousin Steffon. Tywin's brothers Kevan and Tygett (who was all of 10 years old) also served in the war. Hoster and Brynden Tully also serve, the former meets and befriends Lord Baelish (Petyr's father) and Brynden earns his knighthood. Jon Arryn is acquainted with Rickard Stark and Steffon Baratheon. Quellon Greyjoy brings a contingent of longships. No word on Luthor Tyrell as Mace would have been too young at the time (3-4 years old).

Now how do they fit together as the years go by:

Tywin, Kevan, and Tygett purge the Reynes and Tarbecks in 262 AC.

Tywin becomes Hand of the King to Aerys after Castamere (262 AC).

270 AC: Tywin and Aerys begin to have a falling-out; Aerys refuses to appoint Tywin's brother Tygett as a master-at-arms and instead appoints Ser Willem Darry.

Rickard and Steffon each send one of their sons to foster with Jon Arryn at the Eyrie in 271 AC; Rickard sends his second son Eddard, Steffon sends his eldest son Robert.

272 AC: Tywin and Aerys quarrel after remarks made about Tywin's wife Joanna, whom Aerys lusted for. Joanna dies the next year giving birth to her second son Tyrion.

276 AC: Rickard's eldest son Brandon is betrothed to Hoster's elder daughter Catelyn. Brandon is 14, Catelyn 11 or 12. Viserys Targaryen born, Aerys turns down Tywin suggesting a betrothal between Cersei and Rhaegar.

After 276 AC: Petyr Baelish is fostered in Riverrun (assumption made on Ned and Robert's ages).

278 AC: Steffon and Cassana Baratheon drown off the coast of the Stormlands after failed attempt to find bride for Rhaegar.

Before 280 AC: Robert Baratheon is betrothed to Lyanna Stark; by this point Robert has sired Mya Stone.

280 AC: Elia Martell marries Rhaegar Targaryen.

281 AC: Tourney at Harrenhal; Aerys II names Tywin's eldest son Jaime to the Kingsguard, breaking off negotiations to betroth Jaime to Hoster's younger daughter Lysa. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna, souring relations between Houses Targaryen, Martell, and Baratheon.

282 AC: Betrothal of Brandon and Catelyn announced, Petyr challenges Brandon and is nearly killed.

This looks to be how things were stacking up before Rhaegar disappears with Lyanna Stark:

Rhaegar is married to Elia Martell, two children

Robert Baratheon betrothed to Lyanna Stark; Robert has one child sired illegitimately

Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two sort of tangential points:

 

1) I agree with suspecting Jon Arryn of being the mastermind if there was one. There’s no doubt by Westerosi standards he’s honourable, but his actual actions, especially as Hand, also reveal someone with a sense of realpolitik. If he felt that, say, Aerys was becoming a danger to the realm I could see him starting to build a network of like-minded powers, without necessarily having firm plans in place, just sort of establishing the initial parameters of what a post-Aerys or potentially post-Targ world would look like. 
 

2) I don’t agree that LPs can form benign alliances. Feudal alliances are always formed in opposition to someone or something else. That’s…the whole point. They don’t need alliances to conduct business or maintain infrastructure or w/e, alliances at this stage are ~ purely military/political. (Marriages? Sure, those happen all the time, though it should be noted that in RL the royal families often played very active roles as intermediaries in political marriages, in large part to keep an eye on/prevent any over powerful blocs forming.) But actual alliances were only formed in defence against a real or perceived threat or to be one themselves. Certainly any medieval king who discovered powerful subjects making alliances would be very alarmed and would see it as a conspiracy. None of this is said to defend Aerys’ obvious lunacy with Rickard, etc.
 

3) Kindof a side note, but I think people overlook Rhaegar’s humanity a lot with regards to Aerys. Yes, Aerys needed retirement. Yes, Rhaegar was the obvious one to do it. But as much of an asshole as Aerys was, he was still Rhaegar’s father, more he was (arguably) so unhappy because he was locked into a loveless marriage with his sister specifically to give birth to Rhaegar. That’s gotta put a lot of strain on a relationship. And imagine being Rhaegar, and considering overthrowing your own father, whose own happiness was already sacrificed for your sake, and who regularly suspects you of plotting to take his place. My god, the mindfuckery. I would think he would be plagued by doubts and second thoughts, and I can see him being almost a bit relieved when Varys foils Harrenhal and he can get back to prioritizing the, well, thing he was born to do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Two sort of tangential points:

 

1) I agree with suspecting Jon Arryn of being the mastermind if there was one. There’s no doubt by Westerosi standards he’s honourable, but his actual actions, especially as Hand, also reveal someone with a sense of realpolitik. If he felt that, say, Aerys was becoming a danger to the realm I could see him starting to build a network of like-minded powers, without necessarily having firm plans in place, just sort of establishing the initial parameters of what a post-Aerys or potentially post-Targ world would look like. 
 

2) I don’t agree that LPs can form benign alliances. Feudal alliances are always formed in opposition to someone or something else. That’s…the whole point. They don’t need alliances to conduct business or maintain infrastructure or w/e, alliances at this stage are ~ purely military/political. (Marriages? Sure, those happen all the time, though it should be noted that in RL the royal families often played very active roles as intermediaries in political marriages, in large part to keep an eye on/prevent any over powerful blocs forming.) But actual alliances were only formed in defence against a real or perceived threat or to be one themselves. Certainly any medieval king who discovered powerful subjects making alliances would be very alarmed and would see it as a conspiracy. None of this is said to defend Aerys’ obvious lunacy with Rickard, etc.
 

3) Kindof a side note, but I think people overlook Rhaegar’s humanity a lot with regards to Aerys. Yes, Aerys needed retirement. Yes, Rhaegar was the obvious one to do it. But as much of an asshole as Aerys was, he was still Rhaegar’s father, more he was (arguably) so unhappy because he was locked into a loveless marriage with his sister specifically to give birth to Rhaegar. That’s gotta put a lot of strain on a relationship. And imagine being Rhaegar, and considering overthrowing your own father, whose own happiness was already sacrificed for your sake, and who regularly suspects you of plotting to take his place. My god, the mindfuckery. I would think he would be plagued by doubts and second thoughts, and I can see him being almost a bit relieved when Varys foils Harrenhal and he can get back to prioritizing the, well, thing he was born to do. 

I agree with all that.

Tenants in chief often needed the king’s permission to marry.  What you have is a group of Lords Paramount switching from intermarrying with their Bannermen, to intermarrying with each other.

A less paranoid ruler than Aerys would suspect that an alliance was being formed against who else, but the royal family? 

As you say, that does not excuse Aerys’ own behaviour.
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I agree with all that.

Tenants in chief often needed the king’s permission to marry.  What you have is a group of Lords Paramount switching from intermarrying with their Bannermen, to intermarrying with each other.

A less paranoid ruler than Aerys would suspect that an alliance was being formed against who else, but the royal family? 

As you say, that does not excuse Aerys’ own behaviour.
 

 

On the last, I could go along with saying Brandon wrote his own death warrant. I’m personally anti-capital punishment so this isn’t me saying he deserved death, just that it was a reasonable expectation given their culture. 

There are monarchies today where your life expectancy would be pretty short if you rolled up to the capital demanding the crown prince’s head, regardless of your complaint. Like I think, for example, a King Tywin’s gonna make an example of you if he’s king and you do that, Hoster Tully possibly, Jon Arryn maybe, probably not Doran but you’re likely to be exiled at least. Mace, who knows, same with Steffon, and of course Rickard we don’t know. But imagine Smalljon riding into Winterfell in a rage demanding Robb’s head. I think it’s safe to say death is certainly within the realm of possibility at that point, though I think Ned trues to find out wtf is happening first.

But what Aerys did was make a mockery of justice. Now, speaking meta for a second, from a modern perspective having justice decided by fire isn’t any more ludicrous than whoever is the better fighter is more just…it’s possible GRRM was throwing a comment at us to muse over…but within their world it was a travesty. And it seems at least as much motivated by sadism as the needs of state. And, I meant he’s clearly not mentally healthy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Aerys was becoming a danger to the realm I could see him starting to build a network of like-minded powers, without necessarily having firm plans in place, just sort of establishing the initial parameters of what a post-Aerys or potentially post-Targ world would look like

My problem with this sentiment is that it is in hindsight.

Jon Arryn agreed to foster Rickard and Steffon's (future) sons during the NinePenny kings, long before Aerys even took the throne, as far as we can tell Steffon remained on his cousin's corner till the end.

Jon Arryn did not even think abut betrothing his own heir to anyone of relevance, he was just chilling,

By this point every major house bar the Greyjoys (due irrelevancy) and the Tyrells (lack of chlidren) were playing that same game. The Martells courted the Hightowers, Lannisters and married the Targs, the Lannisters courted the Tullys and Martells and were eyeing to the Targaryen, the Tullys were courting the Starks and Lannisters... so on and so forth.

Robert's betrothal to Lyanna comes from his own initiative, from Lyanna's beauty and his desire of having blood ties with his buddy Ned.

 

I just do not understand how everyone can look at the chaos of alliances and betrothals and marriages and come out thinking someone was after the Targaryen, yet. It just so happen that at the moment it all exploded, the pieces were there to form a relatively stable coalition.

The actual glue of the rebellion was the relationship between Arryn and his wards, then they had to bribe Hoster into join them. That's largely luck.

 

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

But actual alliances were only formed in defence against a real or perceived threat or to be one themselves. Certainly any medieval king who discovered powerful subjects making alliances would be very alarmed and would see it as a conspiracy. None of this is said to defend Aerys’ obvious lunacy with Rickard, etc.

Ditto this was the time of betrothals.  If everyone had their wish fulfilled you have this scenario.

 

  1. House Targaryen ends up married with House Lannister and House Martell, is also cousins with House Baratheon.
  2. House Baratheon ends up married to House Stark.
  3. House Stark ends up married to House Tully and House Baratheon.
  4. House Tully ends up married to House Stark and House Lannister.
  5. House Lannister ends up married to House Tully and House Targaryen.
  6. House Martell ends up married to House Targaryen.
  7. House Arryn ????

It is impossible to pretend that the Targs end up with their power threatened, quite the contrary, the are strenghtened.

What happened was that Aerys pulled Jaime out of the equation and alienated the Lannisters and a coule of months later ignited a civil war.

 

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A less paranoid ruler than Aerys would suspect that an alliance was being formed against who else, but the royal family? 

Again, the royal family was part of that set of marriages tho. Aerys just withdrawn himself and the Lannisters.

 

Quote

On the last, I could go along with saying Brandon wrote his own death warrant. I’m personally anti-capital punishment so this isn’t me saying he deserved death, just that it was a reasonable expectation given their culture. 

Heavily disagree, Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, every other royal with half a brain would have understood that and try to defuse the situation.

Hell, Lyonel Baratheon outright rebelled against the Crown and not only received a pardon for his troubles but a princess bride.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

But what Aerys did was make a mockery of justice. Now, speaking meta for a second, from a modern perspective having justice decided by fire isn’t any more ludicrous than whoever is the better fighter is more just…it’s possible GRRM was throwing a comment at us to muse over…but within their world it was a travesty. And it seems at least as much motivated by sadism as the needs of state. And, I meant he’s clearly not mentally healthy. 

It’s like settling a dispute by duelling.  To most modern eyes, it seems ridiculous, but it was considered reasonable for hundreds of years (in France, well into the 20th century).

Within those parameters, there is a strict code of conduct to follow.  Sending a man into a duel with an unloaded gun, turning round and shooting your opponent in the back, make a duellist a common murderer.

By acknowledging Rickard’s right to vindicate himself, and then claiming fire as his champion, Aerys made himself a common murderer (and an extremely sadistic one).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/3/2023 at 3:52 AM, Roswell said:

Lady Barbrey Dustin entertains Theon Greyjoy with a very fascinating story.  Those pages introduced us to Rickard Stark's ambitions to build marriage and military alliances with House Tully and House Baratheon.  This conspiracy is now known as "Southron Ambitions."  If true, the goal of the conspiracy was to put Robert on the throne with Brandon as his Hand. 

A Game of Thrones gave us the following quote:

"That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.  "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

So it was all meant for Brandon.  Maybe even the office of Hand of the King.  It seems to me that the Baratheons and the Starks had been planning to join their houses to remove the Targaryens from power.  It could be an innocent comment from Ned but I do not think so.  Rickard, Brandon, Robert, Hoster, *Catelyn, and Lyanna were all guilty of treason.  They are all dead and have paid for their crimes.  George may give us a backstory and then we will know for sure. 

 

 

 

*Stoneheart is only a shadow of what Cat was. 

I like the Targaryens. I don’t like the Starks. All it would take for me to condemn Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Hoster is evidence suggesting they were plotting. They were not looking out to serve the best interests of their king and his family. I think Brandon deserved death whether they were plotting or not. He and his unwashed thugs threatened their King and his family. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

I like the Targaryens. I don’t like the Starks.

If that's true, why not start some threads to discuss Dany and her arc?  Guess, what, you troll the Starks threads, and I never trolled a Dany thread in all the years I've been on this board, and I don't care for the character.  Give it a try, it's more rewarding than spending your time trolling others on this board.  

edt; Targaryens, I mean say, as that's what you said. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let’s really get down to the brass tacks about the argument given here. At least what I think it is. It goes “Richard, Brandon, and Robert deserved to die if they were conspiring to oust the Targaryens.” Which is true because it means they were already in the act of rebellion.  Aerys was wrong to execute if the Starks and Robert were loyal to him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is really one of those things that's read too much into, like Great Dawn whatever. Unlike Empire of Great something something dark side, this one may actually have some merit into it, but not as much as people read into it. Rickard probably really did want to open up into the rest of Westeros, with his Flowery Maester's urge, but there was no great conspiracy involved etc. since because all those conspiracy theorists work up on stuff that Rickard had no control over. He had his heir betrothed to the eldest daughter of his neighbour and send the second son as a Ward to another neighbour, sorry but really not too much to read into here. Baratheon marriage is because Robert is too "no homo" about his feelings for Ned and wanted to marry a female Ned, Rickard's only involvement was giving consent to the proposal Ned relayed. Lysa-Jon marriage and even Ned-Catelyn marriage to a degree was Hoster taking advantage of the tough situation that the North, Vale, SL trio was in. Where does Tywin even come into this conspiracy? After all, he tried to marry Jaime to Hoster's younger daughter and his elder was already betrothed to the North but the same Tywin was trying to marry Cersei to Aerys' son. How would that conspiracy even work.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From Corvo the Crow:

"Where does Tywin even come into this conspiracy? After all, he tried to marry Jaime to Hoster's younger daughter and his elder was already betrothed to the North but the same Tywin was trying to marry Cersei to Aerys' son. How would that conspiracy even work."

Sums up most of what I was trying to say.  If Jon and Rickard were conspiring against Aerys, then it was likely Steffon was (which doesn't make sense with what we know of his relationship with Aerys), and it is likely Hoster was.  And if Hoster was then it seems Tywin was a part of it.  The theory starts to fall apart the quickly the more you look at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Green Stag said:

From Corvo the Crow:

"Where does Tywin even come into this conspiracy? After all, he tried to marry Jaime to Hoster's younger daughter and his elder was already betrothed to the North but the same Tywin was trying to marry Cersei to Aerys' son. How would that conspiracy even work."

Sums up most of what I was trying to say.  If Jon and Rickard were conspiring against Aerys, then it was likely Steffon was (which doesn't make sense with what we know of his relationship with Aerys), and it is likely Hoster was.  And if Hoster was then it seems Tywin was a part of it.  The theory starts to fall apart the quickly the more you look at it.

Tywin would have been the inside-man to Aerys?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/9/2023 at 10:41 PM, Darth Sidious said:

All it would take for me to condemn Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Hoster is evidence suggesting they were plotting.

Well, yes, that's how it works. Unfortunately, nobody has been able to come up with any evidence of such a plot. So they must remain un-condemned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/10/2023 at 1:41 AM, Darth Sidious said:

I like the Targaryens. I don’t like the Starks. All it would take for me to condemn Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Hoster is evidence suggesting they were plotting. They were not looking out to serve the best interests of their king and his family. I think Brandon deserved death whether they were plotting or not. He and his unwashed thugs threatened their King and his family. 

Oh, thanks for notifying us, I really couldn't tell and I'm sure it came as a shock to other people here as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...