Was Jeyne Westerling marked for death or captivity?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Prior to the Red Wedding, Walder Frey expressed his dislike that Jeyne didn’t accompany Robb to the Twins. Obviously, he was hoping she’d be there, but what would have happened to her?

On the one hand, she’s one of Lord Tywin’s subjects, and her mother was actively working with Tywin to bring Robb down. She would have been a good hostage as well, given her position as Robb’s widow. Catelyn was supposed to be a captive herself before she went mad.

But on the other hand, the Freys were quite happy to kill her brother, even though they could have easily taken him captive. Plus she was the person for whom  Robb betrayed the Freys. I could easily imagine that they planned something nasty for her and were also planning to make Robb watch it happen to her.

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I think Walder wanted her dead. He is a very petty and spiteful old man. The Westerings would’ve been upset by it, but I doubt Tywin would’ve cared. Worst comes to worse he’d either send a singer to the Westerlings or have a new song written so to speak.

[astarkchoice]

Captivity 

Tywin had clearly worked with her mum who most likely safeguarded her kin as payment , plus if she was marked for death letting  her get pregnant  instead of giving her medieval birth control wouldnt have mattered! 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Prior to the Red Wedding, Walder Frey expressed his dislike that Jeyne didn’t accompany Robb to the Twins. Obviously, he was hoping she’d be there, but what would have happened to her?

On the one hand, she’s one of Lord Tywin’s subjects, and her mother was actively working with Tywin to bring Robb down. She would have been a good hostage as well, given her position as Robb’s widow. Catelyn was supposed to be a captive herself before she went mad.

But on the other hand, the Freys were quite happy to kill her brother, even though they could have easily taken him captive. Plus she was the person for whom  Robb betrayed the Freys. I could easily imagine that they planned something nasty for her and were also planning to make Robb watch it happen to her.

 

Ah Floki, I love a good conversation.  So this is what I'm thinking.  All old Walder really wants is to get rid of all his kids, right?  Marry them out as far and wide and well as possible. *DISCLAIMER* I do think Frey approached Tywin for a deal, not the other way around.  If he hangs on to Jeyne, just supposing, he can get rid of 2 daughters and a son, right?  Jeyne's got 2 brothers?  House Westerling would have to take them as part of whatever grand ransom deal was made if Jeyne survived the wedding.  We see a bit of it when Jamie runs into her at Riverrun.  

"Your lord father promised me worthy marriages for Jeyne and her younger sister. Lords or heirs, he swore to me, not younger sons nor household knights."
Lords or heirs. To be sure. The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished. Younger sons would have been the best that Sybell Spicer's daughters could have hoped for in the ordinary course of events, but a nice fat pot of Lannister gold would make even a dead rebel's widow look attractive to some lord. "  AFFC Jamie VII

Sorry, more Westerling children than I remembered.  Still, a deal was in place and I'm not sure Jeyne's survival was necessary to seal the deal for Sybell.  Forgot what a witch she is.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah Floki, I love a good conversation.  So this is what I'm thinking.  All old Walder really wants is to get rid of all his kids, right?  Marry them out as far and wide and well as possible. *DISCLAIMER* I do think Frey approached Tywin for a deal, not the other way around.  If he hangs on to Jeyne, just supposing, he can get rid of 2 daughters and a son, right?  Jeyne's got 2 brothers?  House Westerling would have to take them as part of whatever grand ransom deal was made if Jeyne survived the wedding.  We see a bit of it when Jamie runs into her at Riverrun.  

"Your lord father promised me worthy marriages for Jeyne and her younger sister. Lords or heirs, he swore to me, not younger sons nor household knights."
Lords or heirs. To be sure. The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished. Younger sons would have been the best that Sybell Spicer's daughters could have hoped for in the ordinary course of events, but a nice fat pot of Lannister gold would make even a dead rebel's widow look attractive to some lord. "  AFFC Jamie VII

Sorry, more Westerling children than I remembered.  Still, a deal was in place and I'm not sure Jeyne's survival was necessary to seal the deal for Sybell.  Forgot what a witch she is.  

Well, she was clearly stupid enough to think that her kids wouldn’t come into the line of fire even though their loyalty wasn’t feigned. 

[Curled Finger]

52 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Well, she was clearly stupid enough to think that her kids wouldn’t come into the line of fire even though their loyalty wasn’t feigned. 

She was pretty terrible.  But I think Walder had a similar deal with Tywin as Sybell.

[James Steller]

Jeyne was going to die horribly. She was the catalyst of the Frey disgrace. No way was she going to leave the Twins alive. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

She was pretty terrible.  But I think Walder had a similar deal with Tywin as Sybell.

Which means that in both cases their security was only superficially insured.

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Prior to the Red Wedding, Walder Frey expressed his dislike that Jeyne didn’t accompany Robb to the Twins. Obviously, he was hoping she’d be there, but what would have happened to her?

On the one hand, she’s one of Lord Tywin’s subjects, and her mother was actively working with Tywin to bring Robb down. She would have been a good hostage as well, given her position as Robb’s widow. Catelyn was supposed to be a captive herself before she went mad.

But on the other hand, the Freys were quite happy to kill her brother, even though they could have easily taken him captive. Plus she was the person for whom  Robb betrayed the Freys. I could easily imagine that they planned something nasty for her and were also planning to make Robb watch it happen to her.

 

The Freys would have killed her out of spite.  They are that stupid.

Tywin would no doubt intend she survive, to honour his alliance with Sybel Spicer, but he was not on the spot.  He was expecting a handful of deaths, not a bloodbath.

It demonstrates what a stupid, spiteful, wicked woman Sybel is that she’s willing to put her own children at risk to settle scores.

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, James Steller said:

Jeyne was going to die horribly. She was the catalyst of the Frey disgrace. No way was she going to leave the Twins alive. 

I have a feeling Cat was the real catalyst being a Tully who always looked down on him blah whine snivel.  

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It demonstrates what a stupid, spiteful, wicked woman Sybel is that she’s willing to put her own children at risk to settle scores.

Genuinely one of the worst people in the series. She tends to get overlooked when these things are discussed, presumably because of her brief page-time, and sure, compared to Gregor or Ramsay she's a saint, but the features that take the edge off even of a character like Tywin are entirely absent in her case.

[astarkchoice]

26 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Genuinely one of the worst people in the series. She tends to get overlooked when these things are discussed, presumably because of her brief page-time, and sure, compared to Gregor or Ramsay she's a saint, but the features that take the edge off even of a character like Tywin are entirely absent in her case.

Really is 

 

When you reflect on it her impact is absolutely massive.

If tywin couldnt contact walder (and thus roose) through his  sister ( the one married married to a frey)  then the other likely secret coms source to make the red wedding happen  was this decietful old witch!!! 

Any dreams of robb winning happily ever after were all dashed anyway, we often talk on here what would have happened had the red wedding not occured and on reflection his plan of ambushing tywin would have no doubt  been leaked by his awful mum in law! The woman couldnt even let robb lose and at least beget a heir to let the starks continue!

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I have a feeling Cat was the real catalyst being a Tully who always looked down on him blah whine snivel.  

Cat was definitely supposed to live.

Walders not the smartest, not the purest of hearts. Does that make him an evil idiot? I wouldn't go that far.

 

She was probably supposed to be a prisoner for life. As Jaime noted she can never have a kid for like the next generation. Is this a deterrent for a fYoung Wolf? It helps but sail on the random stinking steward and there may be some kid with physical characteristics there. 

Keep the queen locked up and skinny, have her wave to random court officials every other month and that imo is the most politically sound option.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cat was definitely supposed to live.

Walders not the smartest, not the purest of hearts. Does that make him an evil idiot? I wouldn't go that far.

She was probably supposed to be a prisoner for life. As Jaime noted she can never have a kid for like the next generation. Is this a deterrent for a fYoung Wolf? It helps but sail on the random stinking steward and there may be some kid with physical characteristics there. 

Keep the queen locked up and skinny, have her wave to random court officials every other month and that imo is the most politically sound option.

That's diabolical!  Well done. Are you Tywin Lannister?  

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Genuinely one of the worst people in the series. She tends to get overlooked when these things are discussed, presumably because of her brief page-time, and sure, compared to Gregor or Ramsay she's a saint, but the features that take the edge off even of a character like Tywin are entirely absent in her case.

Very often, evil is not clever, but rather, stupid and self-defeating.

[Hugorfonics]

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's diabolical!  Well done. Are you Tywin Lannister?  

I'll settle for Tyrion

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cat was definitely supposed to live.

Walders not the smartest, not the purest of hearts. Does that make him an evil idiot? I wouldn't go that far.

 

She was probably supposed to be a prisoner for life. As Jaime noted she can never have a kid for like the next generation. Is this a deterrent for a fYoung Wolf? It helps but sail on the random stinking steward and there may be some kid with physical characteristics there. 

Keep the queen locked up and skinny, have her wave to random court officials every other month and that imo is the most politically sound option.

Probably worse than that....shed have been forceably married off to some unwed frey!

 

Hoster keeping his family far from them for years..nothing would please walder as much as making hosters brood marry his. Shit if he wasnt just married the old goat would probably have wanted cat himself

[Hugorfonics]

27 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Probably worse than that....shed have been forceably married off to some unwed frey!

 

Hoster keeping his family far from them for years..nothing would please walder as much as making hosters brood marry his. Shit if he wasnt just married the old goat would probably have wanted cat himself

Roslin? Idk. I don't think KL would approve, Robbs war is supposed to die with him.

Cat? Maybe? It seems unnecessarily cruel imo, I do think she's still maybe of age to have another kid, but what'll raping the lady accomplish? Tully doesn't exist anymore swallowed up by Lannister and co, the child of Cat sounds like it could be very problematic if fallen into the wrong hands, like Roslins. Where as having them in the right hands is just as Jorah would say, useless mouths 

[astarkchoice]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Roslin? Idk. I don't think KL would approve, Robbs war is supposed to die with him.

Cat? Maybe? It seems unnecessarily cruel imo, I do think she's still maybe of age to have another kid, but what'll raping the lady accomplish? Tully doesn't exist anymore swallowed up by Lannister and co, the child of Cat sounds like it could be very problematic if fallen into the wrong hands, like Roslins. Where as having them in the right hands is just as Jorah would say, useless mouths 

Sorry Meant kat for both of them

 

All those years from walders perspective of the ' smug tullys looking down on him ' itd be the sort of vindictive move hed make. Shes too old for kids not that any shed make have anything to inherit ...and useless mouths are a frey specialty

[Hugorfonics]

52 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Sorry Meant kat for both of them

 

All those years from walders perspective of the ' smug tullys looking down on him ' itd be the sort of vindictive move hed make. Shes too old for kids not that any shed make have anything to inherit ...and useless mouths are a frey specialty

It just seems unnecessary cruel and shortsighted even for Walder. Like what's the plan? Marry her off? Keep her pouring the wine around the twins? She'd spearwife the husband on their honeymoon. Or just keep her locked up like some kinda Reek? And used for sport like some kinda Pia?. Vindictiveness on the smug is fun and all that, but I think the plan for Cat was simply to keep the riverlords in line because shes one of their leaders, not like a Ramsay hunt or whatever.

I don't think she's too old, she's like mid 30s I thought. But yea, the whole point is her inheritance is over.

Lol that's true