Tradecraft Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 Arya is too far away to get a good view of the execution... Amd what she does see is different than what she remembers... Sansa doesn't recognize her father's head when they put it on the wall... Catelyn doesn't recognize the bones... One of these my itself would mean nothing... But all three? Our author loves to swap people out right before execution; Davos (head put on a spike like Ned), a certain king in A Dance of Dragons... I don't know what GRRM is trying to do here... Where would he go if lived? Essos to continue protecting Dany? The north? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 I can't express this enough when I say we NEED winds of winter, SOON! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 17 hours ago, Tradecraft said: Arya is too far away to get a good view of the execution... Amd what she does see is different than what she remembers... Sansa doesn't recognize her father's head when they put it on the wall... Catelyn doesn't recognize the bones... One of these my itself would mean nothing... But all three? Our author loves to swap people out right before execution; Davos (head put on a spike like Ned), a certain king in A Dance of Dragons... I don't know what GRRM is trying to do here... Where would he go if lived? Essos to continue protecting Dany? The north? Excellent question! I mean, we know Davos was supposedly beheaded and his head was put on a spike on the gates but actually it was someone else. What if Syrio Forel who is Jaqen H'qar face swapped a prisoner with Ned and had Thoros glamor him like Mel glamored Mance and bag of bones so it would be even more convincing? I mean we have all the necessary ingredients there, Yoren had the pick of the dungeon and found no lordlings, just swap a scum, we have Jaqen H'qar the Tleilaxu face dancer, we have a red priest who is at most a few days away, he can hear the execution and return to the city... Or maybe the author should just stop pulling such stunts a dozen times every other book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 I know we all love The Ned but it's time to accept he's gone, we need to move on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadden Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 17 hours ago, Tradecraft said: Our author loves to swap people out right before execution; Davos (head put on a spike like Ned), a certain king in A Dance of Dragons... I agree. For example, the first two death scenes in the series leave questions and are open ended. Waymar, after what Will perceives as cold butchery, doesn’t seem very dead as he rose with Will and stood over him. His fine clothes a tatter, his face a ruin. Sure he has an eye injury but appears very capable just before Will closes his eyes to pray. Will, after closing his eyes to pray, feels what he thinks are long elegant hands brush his cheek. He imagines them gloved in the finest moleskin sticky with blood. They felt icy cold. But we don’t see him die. And in the next scene, we never get Gared’s identity. We get a certain description and confirmation later on. Certainly Gared is the deserter but this all goes to your point; Martin leaves possibilities open. I happen to believe that the blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice is not Waymar’s actual eye but the sapphire gem in the pommel of his hilt. The one whose perspective we are reading and is holding the hilt. Will should have kept his eyes open for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 No one is dead. Ever. No one actually dies, their energy transmutes form. For example Ned’s physical form transmuted to the physical form of Ned without a head, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Excellent question! I mean, we know Davos was supposedly beheaded and his head was put on a spike on the gates but actually it was someone else. What if Syrio Forel who is Jaqen H'qar face swapped a prisoner with Ned and had Thoros glamor him like Mel glamored Mance and bag of bones so it would be even more convincing? I mean we have all the necessary ingredients there, Yoren had the pick of the dungeon and found no lordlings, just swap a scum, we have Jaqen H'qar the Tleilaxu face dancer, we have a red priest who is at most a few days away, he can hear the execution and return to the city... Or maybe the author should just stop pulling such stunts a dozen times every other book. Our author shows us the full "magic trick" with Davos. The average reader is aware of the trick after Davos in White Harbor but not before because he hasn't seen the trick yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 On 3/5/2023 at 3:55 AM, EggBlue said: I can't express this enough when I say we NEED winds of winter, SOON! I agree. Thanks for disagreeing in a respectable manner. The people on Reddit are jerks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 16 hours ago, James Arryn said: No one is dead. Ever. No one actually dies, their energy transmutes form. For example Ned’s physical form transmuted to the physical form of Ned without a head, That just sucks, why didn't he become a force ghost? 30 something years of prayer to the Old Gods should have amounted to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 16 hours ago, James Arryn said: No one is dead. Ever. No one actually dies, their energy transmutes form. For example Ned’s physical form transmuted to the physical form of Ned without a head, Everyone accuses GRRM of killing all his characters but many come back to life. The accusation seems unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I know we all love The Ned but it's time to accept he's gone, we need to move on... Then why doesn't anyone recognize the man they executed ("Ned") or his bones? What's the purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 On 3/5/2023 at 3:55 AM, EggBlue said: I can't express this enough when I say we NEED winds of winter, SOON! Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 31 minutes ago, Tradecraft said: Then why doesn't anyone recognize the man they executed ("Ned") or his bones? It would be borderline impossible to recognise someone by looking at their skeleton unless they were abnormally tall, small or had unusual skeletal deformities. Ned has neither so it is hardly surprising Catelyn couldn't recognise Ned just from the skeleton. To a lesser extent this is why Sansa didn't recognise the head either. It had had been left to rot. Recognisable facial features would disappear. The point is that these remains are just remains. They aren't Ned. They've lost his characteristics. And so they can't be used to taunt Sansa or Catelyn anymore. 31 minutes ago, Tradecraft said: What's the purpose? The purpose could be lots of different things. It could be to show that all men are the same in death. Death as loss of individuality. One can claim it is to show Ned is not really dead but then what would be the purpose in that? If he's still alive there's been no other hints towards it for the last four books. As it is now his death is a tragic reminder that living well and honourably can get you killed. Having Ned 'come back from the dead' or never having died in the first place in this way would undermine this message, and it would feel like it was coming out of nowhere. I like Ned but I think the story loses some of his impact if it turns out his death never happened. What concerns me about Ned's skeleton is that it seems to have vanished and so he can't be in his 'proper resting place' with his father, brother and sister. 52 minutes ago, Tradecraft said: The people on Reddit are jerks. Sorry to hear that. I hope you've found the people on this forum more respectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 23 hours ago, James Arryn said: No one is dead. Ever. No one actually dies, their energy transmutes form. For example Ned’s physical form transmuted to the physical form of Ned without a head, No-Head Ned, my favorite character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 3 hours ago, LongRider said: No-Head Ned, my favorite character. No-Head Ned is second only to Ned With A Head for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradecraft Posted March 19, 2023 Author Share Posted March 19, 2023 On 3/6/2023 at 12:45 PM, Craving Peaches said: It would be borderline impossible to recognise someone by looking at their skeleton unless they were abnormally tall, small or had unusual skeletal deformities. Ned has neither so it is hardly surprising Catelyn couldn't recognise Ned just from the skeleton. To a lesser extent this is why Sansa didn't recognise the head either. It had had been left to rot. Recognisable facial features would disappear. The point is that these remains are just remains. They aren't Ned. They've lost his characteristics. And so they can't be used to taunt Sansa or Catelyn anymore. The purpose could be lots of different things. It could be to show that all men are the same in death. Death as loss of individuality. One can claim it is to show Ned is not really dead but then what would be the purpose in that? If he's still alive there's been no other hints towards it for the last four books. As it is now his death is a tragic reminder that living well and honourably can get you killed. Having Ned 'come back from the dead' or never having died in the first place in this way would undermine this message, and it would feel like it was coming out of nowhere. I like Ned but I think the story loses some of his impact if it turns out his death never happened. What concerns me about Ned's skeleton is that it seems to have vanished and so he can't be in his 'proper resting place' with his father, brother and sister. Sorry to hear that. I hope you've found the people on this forum more respectful. The only thing I don't know, is if Ned is alive... Where'd he go? To help Dany is essos? The north? The Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Tradecraft said: The only thing I don't know, is if Ned is alive... Where'd he go? That's the thing, if he is alive and has gone somewhere, we have no idea where, because there aren't any other potential hints that he could be alive. 6 hours ago, Tradecraft said: To help Dany is essos? The north? The Wall? If he was just going to the North or the Wall, surely he would have got there by now? Why do you think he'd help Daenerys? I know he didn't want to send assassins after her but that's not quite the same as outright helping her to reclaim Westeros. Ned's family are potentially at risk if he does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 Sansa might not have recognized her father's head on a stick, but I'm quite sure she recognized it as it was being separated from his body. As did Cersei. Both are POVs and neither has indicated any doubts. Several hundred people in the crowd saw it too. Nobody has said otherwise, and it's the kind of thing that would get mentioned. Sorry to break it to you, but Ned is dead. So, by the way, are Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. Claiming otherwise simply wastes everyone's time. If you want to claim that the likes of Syrio Forel, Stonesnake, Raynald Westerling, or Sandor Clegane are still alive, be my guest. I think Sandor is still alive. While the others could theoretically be alive, I very seriously doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadden Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 On 3/6/2023 at 9:45 AM, Craving Peaches said: On 3/6/2023 at 9:14 AM, Tradecraft said: What's the purpose? The purpose could be lots of different things. It’s been stated that Martin himself has said, he doesn’t work from an outline. He’s more of a “gardener“. So perhaps he likes to leave open his possibilities. Allow the story to grow uninhibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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