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Do you guys think that the Iron Throne and the 7K as a single entity will survive the ending of the series?


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43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Never occurred to me that Aegon would make it to the end.  Interesting.  

As to Jon + Asha I say Hell Yah!  Jon deserves to have all the fun in life he can and Asha has proven she can deliver.  Great call.  

We've seen the 7 kingdoms etal try to unite and break off independently.  I don't think they know what they want.  United on the same continent seems like a good idea to me in the long run, but they do have to be on the same page.  These players could make it work if they all make it to the end, that is if Sansa doesn't become an ice queen...oh right, fanfic, sorry.  I want to see something united only because Essos is so untrustworthy and menacing and I don't think Westeros is safe unless it is a big united front against all the nuts out there that would expand and colonize.  Westeros by virtue of the few unique and wonderful minds and spirits we see in Sam, Davos, Brienne, Jamie, Asha, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Sansa, certainly more by the time the whip comes down proves it can be a better place than what it is.  At least there are no slaves, thralls and some black web nastiness, but no legal owning of people.  That alone puts Westeros centuries ahead of Essos at least.  

Honestly, Jon x Asha and King and Queen of the North. Iron Islands, Trident, and Vale is my dream ending, but I’d punt it’ll happen.

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8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

To his face? I'm pretty sure he's still the emperor. 

They were in Habsburg service when the Habsburgs were not HR Emperors e.g. after they lost the election. So no, he would not still be the Emperor. That doesn't matter though because being King of Hungary has nothing to do with being HR Emperor in the system of titles and they are still King of Hungary...

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On 3/6/2023 at 12:42 AM, King Benedict Justman I said:

Do you think the 7 Kingdoms will stay together at the end after the war with the Others and perhaps Cersei or Euron?

 

Personally, I don’t. I’m not suggesting a “Westeros discovers democracy” ending nor do I want the abominations ending. But I expect multiple separate kingdoms at the end. The only way the 7K could stay whole at the end is if Daenerys survives and rules, Jon accepts his Targaryen lineage and rules, or somehow Young Griff makes it to the end.

I see the 7K breaking off into pieces, maybe not like it was before the Conquest, but not staying whole. I see the Trident going to the North, and possibly the Vale if Sansa becomes the powerhouse there I think she will. Iron Islands going independent again, or perhaps merging with the Northern Kingdom if Asha leads them. (King Jon x Queen Asha maybe?) The southern Kingdoms would be in disarray and what happens to them is less clear. They have no real loyalty to another kingdom, so they may split up individually again, but the Tyrells were never royalty so it could be hard for them to declare themselves such. The Lannisters will be in disarray so who knows who will lead them. I suspect Tyrion, which would ironic if Tyrion becomes King of the Westerlands considering how Tywin wanted Lannister royalty but hated Tyrion.  
 

I suspect the Stormlands will follow one of Robert’s bastards, likely Edric, and the Martells, if any survive would probably want to go back to being independent.

I largely agree with the logistics of your post and I ,too, think the way the story is going there may be several kingdoms at the end. probably with North and Dorne each becoming independent and the rest of the kingdoms may be one kingdom together. with the exception of Iron Iselands which I guess may suffer more severe losses and Asha going full Nymeria by the end , grabbing women and children and looking for somewhere they can sow. however, thematically, it seems to me GRRM is making a case for unity through his books. granted this unity may not necessarily be translated to one unified kingdom and rather a few united kingdoms. but if we look at the war of the five kings and RR, the problem isn't that each of the kings' causes or Robert's cause is not just, it's that everyone is getting distracted and humans are damaging each other and starting wars, answering everything with violence, at any given moment(Bran's musings about Men and Singers come to mind). so, I think the way to go for the books is a unified kingdom. and though Targaryens aren't the heros of the story , their reign seems to be the only stable and generally accepted one in Westeros . I doubt any of the Targs survive the series but I expect one of them to leave behind a child whose reign will begin through a regency at the end  of the series. 

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7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Never occurred to me that Aegon would make it to the end.  Interesting.  

As to Jon + Asha I say Hell Yah!  Jon deserves to have all the fun in life he can and Asha has proven she can deliver.  Great call.  

We've seen the 7 kingdoms etal try to unite and break off independently.  I don't think they know what they want.  United on the same continent seems like a good idea to me in the long run, but they do have to be on the same page.  These players could make it work if they all make it to the end, that is if Sansa doesn't become an ice queen...oh right, fanfic, sorry.  I want to see something united only because Essos is so untrustworthy and menacing and I don't think Westeros is safe unless it is a big united front against all the nuts out there that would expand and colonize.  Westeros by virtue of the few unique and wonderful minds and spirits we see in Sam, Davos, Brienne, Jamie, Asha, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Sansa, certainly more by the time the whip comes down proves it can be a better place than what it is.  At least there are no slaves, thralls and some black web nastiness, but no legal owning of people.  That alone puts Westeros centuries ahead of Essos at least.  

I hope you mean unique and wonderful spirits in the case of Jaimie, Asha*, and Brienne! not minds! because... while they are good people with good hearts, they are definitely not smart . ... not at all!

 

*I know we usually say Asha is the smartest Greyjoy(save for mad Euron) and that's true. she's the smartest Greyjoy. rather a low bar if you ask me. 

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21 hours ago, SeanF said:

Like China, it would probably go through periods of unification and division.

Some of the factors that implanted the idea of 'one kingdom under heaven' aren't really there though. There is no concept of provincial culture being 'wrong' and the idea of the 'centre' of the kingdom. There is no concept of the Mandate of Heaven there either, unless you count replacing Aerys with Robert. Most notably, there are greater separatist movements.

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7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

They were in Habsburg service when the Habsburgs were not HR Emperors e.g. after they lost the election. So no, he would not still be the Emperor. That doesn't matter though because being King of Hungary has nothing to do with being HR Emperor in the system of titles and they are still King of Hungary...

I don't really care for this legally stuff because it's the middle ages and the only thing that really matters is steel. (And there weren't that many Hapsburgs who lost an election)

Like aside from the years of Ottoman rule, Hungary swore allegiance to the Empire, it's why they were Catholic and stuff. Like Charlagamane defeated the Hungarians and they became his subject in all but name. Like the Franks? Not so legal as that, but like the Romans, yea sure. Why not?

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Some of the factors that implanted the idea of 'one kingdom under heaven' aren't really there though. There is no concept of provincial culture being 'wrong' and the idea of the 'centre' of the kingdom. There is no concept of the Mandate of Heaven there either, unless you count replacing Aerys with Robert. Most notably, there are greater separatist movements.

One kingdom is what Stannis and co rattle about endlessly

Free city guys and wildlings are most certainly looked down upon. Like they do with Dornishmen and Ionborn

KL is the center of the kingdom. In imperial china tho the capitol was moved all the time 

The mandate of heaven is super weird and very Chinese, but, nah the threat is always there (like what Tywin told Joff)

Greater then like the Mongols? China is definitely more diverse then Westeros, and has repeatedly gone through centuries of civil war 

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6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I hope you mean unique and wonderful spirits in the case of Jaimie, Asha*, and Brienne! not minds! because... while they are good people with good hearts, they are definitely not smart . ... not at all!

 

*I know we usually say Asha is the smartest Greyjoy(save for mad Euron) and that's true. she's the smartest Greyjoy. rather a low bar if you ask me. 

I do.  I hesitated to add other favorite characters because I am unsure what if anything they will bring to the end game.  I am certain what those who are listed will.  Asha, while not the smartest in the game, is as you say, the smartest Greyjoy.  She understands what pinecones represent and has vision for her people as citizens of Westeros.  That's not such a low bar considering she is Westerosi.  Jamie is fierce and Brienne is determined, ain't an Other on all Planetos going to get past either of them so long as either can hold a sword in either hand.  Isn't this what Westeros needs in order to survive its own politics and apocalypse in the end? 

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7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't really care for this legally stuff because it's the middle ages and the only thing that really matters is steel. (And there weren't that many Hapsburgs who lost an election)

Well that's fine but then there's no point in having a discussion because you are just ignoring something because you think it is irrelevant even though it's not...The legally stuff exists, if you want to ignore it that's fine, but repeatedly claiming that it didn't matter when it did is just false.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hungary swore allegiance to the Empire

No, Hungarian nobles chose a Habsburg as king and swore fealty to his successors as King of Hungary. They did not swear allegiance to the HRE. This stuff can easily be looked up...

Actually Hungarians lead raids into HRE until Otto beat them.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Greater then like the Mongols?

Mongols were not separatists, they invaded and claimed Mandate for themselves...

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

and has repeatedly gone through centuries of civil war 

But fewer separatist revolts per so many years than we see in Westeros...

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19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well that's fine but then there's no point in having a discussion because you are just ignoring something because you think it is irrelevant even though it's not...The legally stuff exists, if you want to ignore it that's fine, but repeatedly claiming that it didn't matter when it did is just false.

Nah it's just a different more pragmatic way of looking at it

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No, Hungarian nobles chose a Habsburg as king and swore fealty to his successors as King of Hungary. They did not swear allegiance to the HRE. This stuff can easily be looked up...

Actually Hungarians lead raids into HRE until Otto beat them.

Everyone is always fighting everything.

And all Catholics owed allegiance to the emperor and the pope, both products of the empire 

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Mongols were not separatists, they invaded and claimed Mandate for themselves...

Well they all do. And definitely your right, but like the Jurchen or whomever are usually considered Chinese, until they talk over China... Or like the Uyghurs. I think only like the PRC denies them

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But fewer separatist revolts per so many years than we see in Westeros...

Idk? Last time China was divided was wwii times. 

I mean if we wanna get technical and legal (which we should not! Lol) then there is currently a separatist state in Taiwan. (To clarify, I do not support that view and believe we should look at it more pragmatically. But historicaly, China is divided all the time)

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12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

but like the Jurchen or whomever are usually considered Chinese

They did not view themselves as such, look up the hairstyle they forced the Chinese to adopt.

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk? Last time China was divided was wwii times. 

Thought we were talking about Imperial China though? To be clear I am not saying Imperial China had no civil wars but it had fewer separatist wars.

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

the pope, both products of the empire 

Pope was around before HRE so?

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah it's just a different more pragmatic way of looking at it

You can do that but claiming the legal stuff didn't matter is just false because it did matter...

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11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They did not view themselves as such, look up the hairstyle they forced the Chinese to adopt.

Racism thrived back in the day, no doubt. But didn't they wear dresses and read/wrote in Chinese? Buddhist and such? (Which was foreign even to the people of the Han, and sometimes the court really didn't like that, but most were chill)

If not northern song then one of the other countless dynasties to conquer the middle kingdom. 

They definitely were a diverse country though 

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Thought we were talking about Imperial China though? To be clear I am not saying Imperial China had no civil wars but it had fewer separatist wars.

What's a separatist war? Like a small failed civil war? China had them in spades. 

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Pope was around before HRE so?

Meh. Bishop of Rome was, but he woulda never converted Magyars and Vikings and such if it weren't for the Empire

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You can do that but claiming the legal stuff didn't matter is just false because it did matter...

It mattered on a day to day, but doesn't really from the full distance view. (The Hungarians are difficult because they had these old school republican oligarch war lord traditions, so Czech or whomever?) If Germany is invaded by like the French or whomever, then the Emperor would call in his banners. And again, im pretty sure to his face they call him emperor. So what's the difference? 

Like legally, the Dothraki the Ironborn and even some Wildlings follow the strong. But from an outside perspective we can see it's almost as rigid as Westeros' inheritance policy, the kings son almost always follows.

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

What's a separatist war? Like a small failed civil war?

It's where one region is trying to succeed from the larger whole. Not all civil wars are separatist. Like English civil war was King v Parliament, no separatism involved. Whereas Wars of Scottish independence were. With China the civil wars were usually about who was in charge, not someone trying to succeed from China.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

It mattered on a day to day, but doesn't really from the full distance view. (The Hungarians are difficult because they had these old school republican oligarch war lord traditions, so Czech or whomever?) If Germany is invaded by like the French or whomever, then the Emperor would call in his banners. And again, im pretty sure to his face they call him emperor. So what's the difference? 

Point is King of Hungary and HRE Emperor are seperate titles. It doesn't matter that much but it's not like it doesn't matter at all. Because Emperor's banners wouldn't include Hungary by default. Would only include if Emperor also King of Hungary. Which wasn't always the case.

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26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's where one region is trying to succeed from the larger whole. Not all civil wars are separatist. Like English civil war was King v Parliament, no separatism involved. Whereas Wars of Scottish independence were.

Ok gotcha.

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

With China the civil wars were usually about who was in charge, not someone trying to succeed from China.

China got em in spades too. My favorite books aside from asoiaf is romance of three kingdoms, which takes place (eventually) when China was divided in three kingdoms. 

A few times in China's history they were divided, (usually north and south of the Yangtze) for like a couple hundred years like with the Jin and Song but also the warring states period was a like 200 year multiple country split.

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Point is King of Hungary and HRE Emperor are seperate titles. It doesn't matter that much but it's not like it doesn't matter at all. Because Emperor's banners wouldn't include Hungary by default. Would only include if Emperor also King of Hungary. Which wasn't always the case.

But it was a case for lots of the cases. And when they weren't they were still more then likely to support the banners because they were culturally and politically allied.

Like I recognize Hungarian sovereignty, I agree they got more pull then like the North. However not much more, because theres plenty of ambiguity in asoiaf politics as well

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Nope. Littlefinger is helping Illyrio carry out his plan to destroy the Iron Bank. You read it here first.

Its an interesting idea excwpt we literaly hear varys and ilyrio discuss how LF is fucking up their plan by accelerating war in the 7 kingdoms so hes not in with them.

Nor would one master of coins and a rich merchant be able to bring down a planetwide banking cartel. Nor would the faceless men allow the iron bank to fall , nor would a money man like lf (or ilyrio) want the banks to collapse, nor would ilyrio even be in the same stratosphere economicaly to make that happen, nor would their be any profit or benefit in it.

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The Iron Throne? No

The Seven Kingdoms? Yes. But I feel like that the boundaries and divisions between the Seven Kingdoms will be minimized and blurred to the point where all of Westeros becomes just one gigantic kingdom.

What I mean by that is that I believe that Westeros will go from a feudal decentralized monarchy to a more traditional, absolutist monarchy with a strong bureaucracy, a constitution and the early rumblings of a Parliamentary system 

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10 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What I mean by that is that I believe that Westeros will go from a feudal decentralized monarchy to a more traditional, absolutist monarchy with a strong bureaucracy, a constitution and the early rumblings of a Parliamentary system 

Absolutist Monarchy can't really coexist with a constitution and parliament though.

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15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Absolutist Monarchy can't really coexist with a constitution and parliament though.

My mistake

I should've said a strong and centralized monarchy that serves as an ultimate authority with a constitution, a pseudo-parliament of lords and a judicial system (primarily staffed and worked by commoners) as a check on its power

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