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Is Lyanna truly dead?


Tradecraft

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4 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I question Ned being dead too. Nobody recognizes his body.

ps: Arya and Sansa saw it and they don’t seem to have any doubts. Why do you think that is? 

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20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Four remained and one of them Ghost could no longer sense, Summer, because he was on the Other side of the wall.

I read it this way too. In context

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.
"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.
 
He hears his packmates calling but he only sees Shaggy and Nymeria, not Summer.  He remembers they were six but now are four and he can no longer sense one of those, the brother he knows is alive but cannot see: Summer.
 
I'm not sure how much that clears up cross-wall magical communication but that's my 2c :D
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/7/2023 at 2:42 PM, kissdbyfire said:

ps: Arya and Sansa saw it and they don’t seem to have any doubts. Why do you think that is? 

Sansa doesn't recognize the head on red sleep's wall!

 

Nor does Catelyn recognize Ned's bones. 

 

Arya was too far away to get a good look. 

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On 3/6/2023 at 1:04 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Usually there is some kind of cost to ‘resurrection’ in the books. And it really is one of the central symbolic themes - to such an extent that I expect many examples of true body horror to feature in future characters ‘reappearances’. Catelyn’s transformation is more likely to the be way things go. Dark, macabre, Lovecraftian. Yum yum.

I'm not talking about resurection. I doubt she died to begin with. 

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1 minute ago, Tradecraft said:

Did Bobby Baratheon die? What proof do we have that he died? 

What are you saying? Because if you keep at this pace we’ll get to “no one has ever died on Planetos, they’re all immortal”. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

What are you saying? Because if you keep at this pace we’ll get to “no one has ever died on Planetos, they’re all immortal”. 

I think many people who "died" are living a "second live" as another character in the story. 

 

Not everyone. But it'd be ironic because GRRM has a reputation for killing everyone. 

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12 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

What's the purpose of Sansa and Catelyn not recognizimg Ned's corpse? 

You tell me. 

For everyone who hasn't seen the other thread, I will put it very plainly - I doubt I could recognise my father from a several days rotten corpse or bones. The body starts to decay. It is hardly surprising Sansa and Catelyn don't recognise it as Ned.

Edit: Tradecraft I see you've seen it but I will leave this short version up here for others who haven't seen the original comment.

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7 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

What's the purpose of Sansa and Catelyn not recognizimg Ned's corpse? 

You tell me. 

Sansa sees there are heads on the parapet but doesn't look directly at them on purpose. She looks out towards the north. Then Joffrey makes her look, and she does; she looks without seeing. It’s literally spelled out in the text. 
 

AGoT, Sansa VI

What are you looking at?" Joffrey said. "This is what I wanted you to see, right here."

A thick stone parapet protected the outer edge of the rampart, reaching as high as Sansa's chin, with crenellations cut into it every five feet for archers. The heads were mounted between the crenels, along the top of the wall, impaled on iron spikes so they faced out over the city. Sansa had noted them the moment she'd stepped out onto the wallwalk, but the river and the bustling streets and the setting sun were ever so much prettier. He can make me look at the heads, she told herself, but he can't make me see them.

"This one is your father," he said. "This one here. Dog, turn it around so she can see him."

Sandor Clegane took the head by the hair and turned it. The severed head had been dipped in tar to preserve it longer. Sansa looked at it calmly, not seeing it at all. It did not really look like Lord Eddard, she thought; it did not even look real. "How long do I have to look?"

As to Cat not recognizing Ned’s bones, surely it’s a joke, right? 

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to Cat not recognizing Ned’s bones, surely it’s a joke, right? 

Maybe recognise is the wrong word but I do think we are meant to pick up on how she thinks the bones aren't Ned. As much as I would like Ned to be alive I doubt this means he is, and it is probably just showing that what was Ned had 'gone' when he died so now Catelyn is left with the 'empty' bones. Expanding on Catelyn's grief, the bones are never going to make up for her living, breathing husband and so on.

But if we want to get creative and supernatural, remember that Ned was executed on the Steps of the Great Sept of Baelor, supposedly profaning the holy place.

Could Ned's skeleton not 'feel' like him because his spirit isn't there?

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6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe recognise is the wrong word but I do think we are meant to pick up on how she thinks the bones aren't Ned. As much as I would like Ned to be alive I doubt this means he is, and it is probably just showing that what was Ned had 'gone' when he died so now Catelyn is left with the 'empty' bones. Expanding on Catelyn's grief, the bones are never going to make up for her living, breathing husband and so on.

But if we want to get creative and supernatural, remember that Ned was executed on the Steps of the Great Sept of Baelor, supposedly profaning the holy place.

Could Ned's skeleton not 'feel' like him because his spirit isn't there?

Ah okay then. I haven’t read the scene where Cat finally sees the bones in forever, I didn’t remember her thoughts on this. I’ll reread the passage, now I’m curious. 
I don’t believe he is alive, though there’s always been much speculation. 
There’s also always been discussions about Ned’s spirit having gone… into someone else? I don’t believe that either, mostly because I haven’t seen any hints pointing to something like that. :dunno:

As to Cat thinking she “doesn’t recognise” his skeleton and whether that could be b/c his spirit isn’t in his bones… I don’t know. Wouldn’t that be the same for everyone? Even if the corpse is still whole, the spirit isn’t there anymore, therefore shouldn’t the dead person feel alien somehow to everyone?

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to Cat thinking she “doesn’t recognise” his skeleton and whether that could be b/c his spirit isn’t in his bones… I don’t know. Wouldn’t that be the same for everyone? Even if the corpse is still whole, the spirit isn’t there anymore, therefore shouldn’t the dead person feel alien somehow to everyone?

Maybe, but I don't know if we have another scene of someone with a skeleton like Catelyn. I think with regards to Ned in particular though the spirit is supposed to be in the bones which are then supposed to be in the crypt with the iron sword. Not that the spirit details are particularly relevant given the skeleton as a whole has disappeared but I just think that Ned's spirit should be in the crypt alongside all the other Starks...

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12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I just think that Ned's spirit should be in the crypt alongside all the other Starks...

It may already be there according to Rickon and Bran, who both insist that Ned was in the crypts.  Bran dreamed it and Rickon says he saw him.

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1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

What's the purpose of Sansa and Catelyn not recognizimg Ned's corpse? 

You tell me. 

umm ... that is supposed to be heartbreaking. period. 

I wouldn't expect a daughter to recognize the lifeless decayed head of her father no more than I expect a wife to recognize her husband's literal bones.

as for Lyanna she is so obviously Jyanna Reed. although in that case, I'd think GRRM is trolling us.

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2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

umm ... that is supposed to be heartbreaking. period. 

I wouldn't expect a daughter to recognize the lifeless decayed head of her father no more than I expect a wife to recognize her husband's literal bones.

as for Lyanna she is so obviously Jyanna Reed. although in that case, I'd think GRRM is trolling us.

Can we just agree to respectfully disagree? 

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6 hours ago, LongRider said:

It may already be there according to Rickon and Bran, who both insist that Ned was in the crypts.  Bran dreamed it and Rickon says he saw him.

That's true, but then again that could also just be about Ned being dead in general... spirit or no spirit the bones still haven't shown up which I find a bit concerning...

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