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Things That Detract From Your Enjoyment


Corvo the Crow

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As the title says. What are some things that detract from your enjoyment of the series?

Secret identities popping out everywhere

Many characters you expected to die due to their last known circumstances surviving. Disclaimer, I don't expect Jon to die.

Some of the characters who were most certain to have died but survived doing it not once but several times. Tyrion is the most prominent example of this.  

Characters who somehow actually managed to die despite all those death survivals going on in the series returning to life. I'm putting it on hold for the time being as there are only two such characters right now, Beric and Catelyn, but if Jon dies and resurrects then it's too much.

Characters/Factions who lost most of what they got and were assured to lose getting unexpected relief and getting back in the game. Tywin/Iron Throne and Stannis are the most prominent examples.

Armies, resources etc. manifesting out of nowhere, popping out left and right.

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Well, honestly, it's the huge wait in between books!

I just feel like I don't know what to think of a given plot point until I see how it factors into the finished story. So if Jon does die and is resurrected, and yet it serves both strong plot and thematic purposes, then that would be good in my book. And if that were the case, then perhaps Beric and LSH seeded those ideas, or provided some interesting foils to Jon's case. I dunno. It all depends on how it's done, and what purpose it serves!

My greatest worry is that the story has just grown too convoluted, and a lot of the threads and bubbling dramas will be more or less abandoned. So that relates to all of the fake deaths and hidden characters and all the rest.

IF our dear author can land the plane smoothly, then I will have nothing but praise. But until then, I do worry...

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I will say though, I find the cliffhanger endings of chapters to be rather cheap.

GRRM uses them quite a bit, maybe some more acceptable than others (Brienne in AFFC; Davos in ADWD). Arya getting a haircut at the end of AGOT? Totally unnecessary, gratuitous shock-schlock. And then by the time you get to Jon in ADWD (which on it's own is perfectly fine for me) you're tired of another cliffhanger ending because you've already had so many!

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Because GRRM has said his primary criticism of Tolkien was bringing Gandalf back from the dead devalued death, I am always surprised that he keeps undead-ing characters. I think it would bother me a bit even without the Tolkien thing, but because of it each time it seems to be going that way I half-way convince myself it’s not happening again, and when it does I’m more annoyed than I would be otherwise. 
 

That connects to another minor obstacle; when he leans towards his horror writer side. Reek in the cell, Ramsay generally, Euron…it’s well written, no arguing that, just not what I’m into reading. 

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Tyrion, Tywin, Stannis et al plot armour. Tywin gets so lucky, Tyrion has the thickest plot armour in the series followed closely by LF, and Stannis has deus ex machina to aid him and has troops spawn out of thin air. If Stannis needed to have more troops just have him lose slightly fewer in the Blackwater rather than granting him magical northern troops spat out from the hills.

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2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyrion, Tywin, Stannis et al plot armour. Tywin gets so lucky, Tyrion has the thickest plot armour in the series followed closely by LF, and Stannis has deus ex machina to aid him and has troops spawn out of thin air.

Stannis sans Stannis fans can be fun, honestly. For example, Stannis is not the one who cites Renly being killed by a previously-unheard-of-shadow baby-brother-assassin as some kind of meritocratic proof of his unsuitability to rule. That’s his fans. 

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The very existence of Jorah Mormont detracts from my enjoyment of the series. Also the snail pace of Winds of Winter.

I'm a very spiritually "religious" gal, so the religious aspect of the books I tend to give a lot of attention. But there's a lot that is lacking, especially spiritual intimacy (mostly Westeros.) Overall, I think he did a pretty good job. We have a few "main-ish" characters that actually seek to be used by their god(s), and in doing so, they seek actual guidance. "Where would you have me go? What would you have me do? Are my actions and my speech a reflection of you?" I would like more of that.

Maybe the lacking number of languages in Westeros. Although, it doesn't bother me to the point where it detracts from the story. 

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4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Stannis sans Stannis fans can be fun, honestly. For example, Stannis is not the one who cites Renly being killed by a previously-unheard-of-shadow baby-brother-assassin as some kind of meritocratic proof of his unsuitability to rule. That’s his fans. 

I love the fans that photoshop a flower crown onto their Stannis icon :wub: They look at the most strict, serious, and unhumorous character in the books/show and go "you know what this guy needs? a flower crown."

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7 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Stannis sans Stannis fans can be fun, honestly. For example, Stannis is not the one who cites Renly being killed by a previously-unheard-of-shadow baby-brother-assassin as some kind of meritocratic proof of his unsuitability to rule. That’s his fans. 

My favourite argument is that Renly was somehow more guilty of being a Kinslayer than Stannis because he wanted to kill Stannis (not really true) and Stannis 'didn't want' to kill him...even though...Stannis actually killed Renly...I...

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32 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I will say though, I find the cliffhanger endings of chapters to be rather cheap.

GRRM uses them quite a bit, maybe some more acceptable than others (Brienne in AFFC; Davos in ADWD). Arya getting a haircut at the end of AGOT? Totally unnecessary, gratuitous shock-schlock. And then by the time you get to Jon in ADWD (which on it's own is perfectly fine for me) you're tired of another cliffhanger ending because you've already had so many!

Exactly my reasoning. On their own, not all but most of the things are fine and actually add to the story quite much. Stannis' challenges when rising back is quite exciting, but not as much as it could've been after Tywin got his ass handed over to him by North and Riverlands but then finding unexpected support and beating everything on his path.

Cliffhangers are quite thrilling but not a) when you see a cliffhanger for the how manieth time and b) when there's more than a decade between the cliffhanger and it continuing.

Wights resurrecting is fine and fine even now, especially considering the story but if a single more important character rises as a wight for it's convenient way of bringing them back to the story after their death I'm gonna puke.

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15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyrion, Tywin, Stannis et al plot armour. Tywin gets so lucky, Tyrion has the thickest plot armour in the series followed closely by LF, and Stannis has deus ex machina to aid him and has troops spawn out of thin air. If Stannis needed to have more troops just have him lose slightly fewer in the Blackwater rather than granting him magical northern troops spat out from the hills.

Yeah, why didn't those troops aid Robb in the first place? I'm getting the feeling those hill clansmen aren't as First Man as they claim, not supporting their liege but supporting a foreigner who burns the Old Gods.

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10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yeah, why didn't those troops aid Robb in the first place? I'm getting the feeling those hill clansmen aren't as First Man as they claim, not supporting their liege but supporting a foreigner who burns the Old Gods.

Yeah, before that we see like one guy, then suddenly they have thousands of fresh troops available, where did they come from? I really doubt Robb ignored them, he wanted all the help he could get. And I expect to see them desert if they find out about the Weirwood burning.

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32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

My favourite argument is that Renly was somehow more guilty of being a Kinslayer than Stannis because he wanted to kill Stannis (not really true) and Stannis 'didn't want' to kill him...even though...Stannis actually killed Renly...I...

Also, he should have gone back in time and supported Stannis even though he was not rebelling against Stannis, Stannis had not been heard from in…a year? And of course he should surrender his power and the Tyrells because Baratheons are hopelessly devoted to the line of succession…unless you are blond. Or Targaryen.
 

 I’ve even had Stannis fans earnestly explain to me what a disastrous effect on the kingdom it would be to have someone take the throne with a lesser claim and military might as a precedent. I…really? Like there are people who think Stannis would surrender, regardless of power or circumstance, if it was established that someone else had a better claim/is a brunette. I don’t know what character they’ve been reading. Stannis can be just, can be wise, can be efficient, etc. excepting when any of those get in the way of Stannis getting what he thinks he’s owed. There he consistently prioritized the latter. I’m waiting to see Mel do any kind of warging or possessing before I write a thread about Stannis/Mel assassinating Robert. Of course that’s impossible for Stannis fans, he’s just not that kind of man, he’d never kill his brother. Sorry, his older brother. Younger brothers, sons of older brothers, faithful castellans, etc. those of course everyone kills alla time, basically a misdemeanour. But older brothers? Don’t be ridiculous. 

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28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

My favourite argument is that Renly was somehow more guilty of being a Kinslayer than Stannis because he wanted to kill Stannis (not really true) and Stannis 'didn't want' to kill him...even though...Stannis actually killed Renly...I...

Can't blame Renly of being a Kinslayer because he hasn't killed Stannis, but blaming Stannis I also don't know. Not because he's one of my favourite characters, but because he was seen as dying in fire visions. Might as well blame Stannis for regicide of Robb, Balon and Joffrey because he burned some leeches. 

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3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not because he's one of my favourite characters, but because he was seen as dying in fire visions. Might as well blame Stannis for regicide of Robb, Balon and Joffrey because he burned some leeches. 

I distinguish Renly's case from them as I think more active participation was required from Stannis. Unless one thinks he just let Mel run around unsupervised which I doubt. He must have been aware of what was going to happen, in fact Mel has to basically have guaranteed it because Stannis banked everything on it working.

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2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I distinguish Renly's case from them as I think more active participation was required from Stannis. Unless one thinks he just let Mel run around unsupervised which I doubt. He must have been aware of what was going to happen, in fact Mel has to basically have guaranteed it because Stannis banked everything on it working.

Oh I bet Mel guaranteed it, but Mel has already demonstrated her power to him earlier. Cressen's assasination attempt was a prime example of the trueness of her visions. Too bad she didn't know Cressen could teleport though. He force projected himself to let her believe he died and is coming to get her.

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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh I bet Mel guaranteed it, but Mel has already demonstrated her power to him earlier. Cressen's assasination attempt was a prime example of the trueness of her visions. Too bad she didn't know Cressen could teleport though. He force projected himself to let her believe he died and is coming to get her.

I dunno, I wouldn't think someone could magically assassinate someone with magic demon fetus just because they survived a poisoning attempt.

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5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I dunno, I wouldn't think someone could magically assassinate someone with magic demon fetus just because they survived a poisoning attempt.

It would prove the truth of her visions though. 

"I saw Renly dying in Storm's End your grace, I also saw Cressen trying to assasinate me at feast your grace, I'll prove it" after Cressen bit is proven, makes the former believable.

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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

"I saw Renly dying in Storm's End your grace, I also saw Cressen trying to assasinate me at feast your grace, I'll prove it" after Cressen bit is proven, makes the former believable.

I just don't think it makes it believable to 'I will bank everything I have on this' standard, but maybe I'm just more cautious than most.

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5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It would prove the truth of her visions though. 

"I saw Renly dying in Storm's End your grace, I also saw Cressen trying to assasinate me at feast your grace, I'll prove it" after Cressen bit is proven, makes the former believable.

Wouldn’t it at least be “I saw Renly dying IF you go attack SE and draw him there.”? Stannis had to play an active role, he sought his brothers death, took extreme steps to achieve it, and even the shadow baby assassin had his face…I don’t think GRRM is being subtle here. 

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