The Good Queen Alysanne was a Terrible Mother

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Credit: tumblr user : bbygirl-Aemond

 

 

She allowed 16yo Daella to be married off to a 36yo Rodrik Arryn (she did give Daella two other options, but they were both fully grown men). teenage Daella soon fell pregnant and wrote to her mother saying she was scared for her life. She died in childbirth.
 

She betrothed 15yo Viserra to the already "old" and "very stout" Lord Manderly, who'd already gone through four wives, and who viserra made clear she did not want to marry. she did this even though Viserra was young because she disliked that Viserra was currying favor with men due to her beauty. This directly pushed Viserra to slip her guards and try to enjoy some freedom before being married to a fat old grandpa, which led to the accident that killed her.
 

Maegelle was kind of alright but she was raised to be a silent sister from birth, she never had a choice in it. Alysanne decided her entire life's course for her as a baby and she was never allowed to consider any other path.
 

Gael honestly had a very clingy relationship with Alysanne because by the time she was born Alysanne had already lost several children. I think Alysanne using gael as an emotional crutch for losing children directly contributed to gael later killing herself at 19yo after losing a baby.
 

Alyssa was allowed to marry Baelon when she was just 15yo. some people say it was nice of Alysanne to let Alyssa marry who she wanted, but given Alysanne’s track record i think Alyssa’s wants didn't factor into this decision as much as Baelon’s did. and regardless, allowing Alyssa to marry and become pregnant so young put her at risk for the childbirth complications that later killed her.
 

Saera i could write an entire essay about. she was constantly ignored by her parents since she was the ninthborn and a girl, and was punished when this neglect made her act out for attention. Jaehaerys  was willing to let saera marry one of the three men she favored, but Alysanne refused. when saera was found to have kissed and possibly slept with these men, Alysanne said she should be punished, and stood by while Saera was forced to watch from afar as her own father killed one of her male companions. She then forced Saera to join the faith, where she was abused for over a year (her head was shaved, she was physically beaten, etc.). I don't blame Saera for running away and remaining no contact with Alysanne for the rest of Alysanne’s life.
 

Alysanne even did her grandchildren dirty. She allowed 11yo Aemma to be married to Viserys, and later allowed Viserys to consummate the marriage when Aemma was just 13yo even though maesters warned them it would irreparably damage Aemma’s reproductive system and body. this caused Aemma lifelong health issues that later killed her. Like this is literally what happened with Daella, only much worse, and they absolutely knew better but didn't care enough about poor Aemma’s safety.
 

Listen, I appreciate the things Alysanne accomplished as Jaehaerys’ advisor. she was definitely the biggest force of good for women that we ever got under the targaryens (save for Daenerys). but it's not a coincidence that Alysanne relationships with all of her daughters ended in tragedy when her relationships with her sons did not.

She is complicit in the unhappiness and death that faced her descendants like Daella, Alyssa, and Aemma for allowing them to become pregnant so young. she was slut-shamey towards both Viserra and Saera for daring to have agency over their sexuality, even more so than Jaehaerys  which is really saying something. she had a talent for alienating her daughters and making choices for their lives without regard for their happiness. contrast this to her relationships with her sons, whom she allowed the agency she never granted her daughters: she allowed both Aemon and Baelon to choose their own wives, rather than following precedent that would dictate Aemon marry Alyssa.

[Craving Peaches]

Yeah, her and her husband weren't very good parents.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, her and her husband weren't very good parents.

I just see, especially on tik tok and other ASOIAF communities, everyone shits on Jaehaerys and gives Alysanne all the credit for the good things in their reign. When usually all they have to say is “Jaehaerys was a raging misogynist” and uses that to disqualify him. When in reality, Alysanne was just as bad as him.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

When usually all they have to say is “Jaehaerys was a raging misogynist” and uses that to disqualify him. When in reality, Alysanne was just as bad as him.

Yeah. People should actually back up there arguments. I bet some of these people haven't actually read Fire and Blood or the other books and have only seen HotD.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Do you think there's any reason for this inconsistency? I mean do you think that the author is deliberately telling us one thing and showing us something completely different, or this is perhaps a flaw in how he's developed a character that he has conceived as good and righteous?

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Do you think there's any reason for this inconsistency? I mean do you think that the author is deliberately telling us one thing and showing us something completely different, or this is perhaps a flaw in how he's developed a character that he has conceived as good and righteous?

I think the good and righteous came first, all the mistakes came when he decided to write a book about them and realized how boring a half-century of no mistakes reads, honestly.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

24 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I think the good and righteous came first, all the mistakes came when he decided to write a book about them and realized how boring a half-century of no mistakes reads, honestly.

Yeah, that's probably it. I hope for more.

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yeah, that's probably it. I hope for more.

Well, I think he used the need for change to inspire some interesting aspects and raise even more interesting questions. So it’s not all bad. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Well, I think he used the need for change to inspire some interesting aspects and raise even more interesting questions. So it’s not all bad. 

I quite enjoy F&B myself. He's still got room to work with the inconsistency in works yet unpublished if he chooses. Maybe he doesn't see it or see it the same way. I judge people by their kids. It's just something that's borne out in my experience. Maybe his has been different.

[James Arryn]

9 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I quite enjoy F&B myself. He's still got room to work with the inconsistency in works yet unpublished if he chooses. Maybe he doesn't see it or see it the same way. I judge people by their kids. It's just something that's borne out in my experience. Maybe his has been different.

I’m going to be judged by my twins? God help me. They are perfect angels except for when they are scheming, manipulative sociopaths bent on breaking the world or their bodies at any given moment. We “play” this “game” where they randomly run full tilt head first into my crotch and then they laugh hysterically while I roll about on the floor “pretending” to be in serious pain. They’re smart as hell and gorgeous and sensitive and fearless and…I suspect one day in my dotage to be accosted by reporters asking my thoughts on my daughters’ lives of crime/political office, and how much responsibility I assume for their actions. 
 

Edit: just realized that the alternative is being judged on MY life. I’ll stick with the future eco-terrorists. 

[GZ Bloodraven]

I've always loved how terrible Alysanne was to her kids, because it really shows the public/private divide of the Targaryen family. Publically, it doesn't really matter what people are like with their family, as mothers, they will still be labelled "Good Queen." 

Also, I love Jae almost as much as I love Vizzy the second, but he was 100% a raging misogynist. Not saying Alysanne is better or worse, but they were both definitely products of their patriarchal time. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

7 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I've always loved how terrible Alysanne was to her kids, because it really shows the public/private divide of the Targaryen family. Publically, it doesn't really matter what people are like with their family, as mothers, they will still be labelled "Good Queen." 

Also, I love Jae almost as much as I love Vizzy the second, but he was 100% a raging misogynist. Not saying Alysanne is better or worse, but they were both definitely products of their patriarchal time. 

I think it was Septon Barth who was the voice of reason during their reign and both of them were smart enough to listen to him when it mattered.

[GZ Bloodraven]

3 minutes ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

I think it was Septon Barth who was the voice of reason during their reign and both of them were smart enough to listen to him when it mattered.

Barth was probably the most influential person in all of Westerosi history in terms of development. His counsel was obviously super important, but he was also researching dragons and the Doom and the wacky seasons and stuff, all of which, if continued, would serve as an important jumping off point for creating a more stable and developed Westeros. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

16 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I’m going to be judged by my twins? God help me. They are perfect angels except for when they are scheming, manipulative sociopaths bent on breaking the world or their bodies at any given moment. We “play” this “game” where they randomly run full tilt head first into my crotch and then they laugh hysterically while I roll about on the floor “pretending” to be in serious pain. They’re smart as hell and gorgeous and sensitive and fearless and…I suspect one day in my dotage to be accosted by reporters asking my thoughts on my daughters’ lives of crime/political office, and how much responsibility I assume for their actions. 
 

Edit: just realized that the alternative is being judged on MY life. I’ll stick with the future eco-terrorists. 

LOL. Sound like they'll be fine. I put my foot in my mouth a little with that and the few attempts to explain that I've written and deleted weren't going to help. I could probably stand to be a little less judgmental.

[Nathan Stark]

Meh. Alysanne and Jehearys had like 13 children in all. That's a lot to keep track of. There is also a definate shortage of men with blood worthy for a Princess, so if Alysanne needs to marry her 16 year old off to some old pervert, then that's kind of her royal duty. It is the great trap of the patriarchy. The moral here is to not have families with over a dozen kids. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Honestly I think Jaehaerys gets shit for how bad of a father he was but Alysanne gets ignored because Jaehaerys is a man.

[sifth]

To be fair, she had a rather insane amount of kids. I admire anyone who could raise 3 kids, let alone 13. Not saying this excuses her being a bad mother, but it at least explains why.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, she had a rather insane amount of kids. I admire anyone who could raise 3 kids, let alone 13. Not saying this excuses her being a bad mother, but it at least explains why.

Then give the same leeway to Jaehaerys 

[Corvo the Crow]

38 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, she had a rather insane amount of kids. I admire anyone who could raise 3 kids, let alone 13. Not saying this excuses her being a bad mother, but it at least explains why.

To be fair nobility, let alone royalty don't raise those kids themselves. Women don't even breastfeed so they can get pregnant again as soon as possible.

[James Arryn]

58 minutes ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

Then give the same leeway to Jaehaerys 

To be fair, on many of the more divisive issues of their reign, Alysanne had a greater understanding of the potential downsides, and while she was never ignored it was pretty clear that sometimes unless Barth et al sided with her, Jaehaerys was going to hear her out, do what he thinks is right and then try and mend fences with her. Often she’d get her way only after the consequences of the first decision ~ proved her right, ie after the damage was done. Not saying she was right every time they disagreed, just on the more controversial issues it seemed that way. And specifically when it comes to the safety/welfare of their children, esp. daughters. 
 

And then there is just the sheer toll that many pregnancies take on a fairly small human…she’d have spent a ton of her life in pain, discomfort, lacking sleep, hormonal chaos going on inside, etc. and as a result doing things like attending the SC or court would have been much more exhausting than it ever was for her husband. That many kids in that many years? It’s a minor miracle she maintained her life and sanity as long as she did. 
 

It’s totally normal for two loving parents to have strong disagreements over raising children. Both can come at it from a good angle but different from their partners. Sorting that out in RL can be a delicate and time-consuming exercise in compromise provided both understand that the other parent’s concerns are just as valid as their own, and provided that neither ends up feeling like theirs were shut down. Jaehaerys to be fair didn’t do this too often, but there were occasions when he was particularly angry or frustrated where he pushed the King button and pretty much did what he felt like doing. Again, compared to most this was rare, but within the architecture of their relationship as partners and parents it definitely did some ~ irreparable damage. 
 

I guess I kinda feel GRRM went a tad overboard with J/A’s kids either being great-but-soon-dead, troubled-but-soon-dead or troubled-but-lives-longer. Maybe it felt like a cop-out to introduce a bunch of problems but have no lasting consequences because you got one or two solid future rulers through it all.