Bowen Marsh & Co. : Traitors of the Human Race

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

As the title says, Marsh and his ilk are traitors to the human race. They care not for the Others and the threat they pose, as seen with their betrayal of their rightful Lord Commander. They murdered him because of his wisdom to let the Wildlings through the Wall to defend it against the Others, rather than allowing the thousands of them to join the army of the dead. 
 

Despite his wise decisions, Marsh and his supporters inconceivably decide to murder him out of bigoted fear OR…because Marsh is planning on joining the Others and wants to give them the Wall as payment in order to join their side. He has been on the Wall for a long time and likely knows of Crastor’s offerings to the Others. He probably deduced why they want Crastor’s sons and wants to be made into an Other to save himself from them. He is a true coward of a man.

[Craving Peaches]

I agree but did we not already have a thread on this recently?

[Roswell]

6 hours ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

As the title says, Marsh and his ilk are traitors to the human race. They care not for the Others and the threat they pose, as seen with their betrayal of their rightful Lord Commander. They murdered him because of his wisdom to let the Wildlings through the Wall to defend it against the Others, rather than allowing the thousands of them to join the army of the dead. 
 

Despite his wise decisions, Marsh and his supporters inconceivably decide to murder him out of bigoted fear OR…because Marsh is planning on joining the Others and wants to give them the Wall as payment in order to join their side. He has been on the Wall for a long time and likely knows of Crastor’s offerings to the Others. He probably deduced why they want Crastor’s sons and wants to be made into an Other to save himself from them. He is a true coward of a man.

This is not the case at all.  Bowen Marsh killed the traitor, Jon Snow, to save the NW and Westeros.  It was Jon Snow who was the traitor to the NW.  Jon's decisions with regards to the mission to get his sister were acts of treason.  Jon let emotions control his decisions and he was willing to compromise the NW for his sister.  Bowen is a hero in many ways.  Jon was the villain, the traitor, the disgrace in A Dance With Dragons. 

[Craving Peaches]

50 minutes ago, Roswell said:

This is not the case at all. 

 

50 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Bowen Marsh killed the traitor, Jon Snow, to save the NW and Westeros. 

Hmm...

51 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Jon was the villain, the traitor, the disgrace in A Dance With Dragons. 

Do you really believe this? Do you genuinely think this is what the author intended? Jon as 'the villain' when there are people like Ramsay right there?

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Roswell said:

This is not the case at all.  Bowen Marsh killed the traitor, Jon Snow, to save the NW and Westeros.  It was Jon Snow who was the traitor to the NW.  Jon's decisions with regards to the mission to get his sister were acts of treason.  Jon let emotions control his decisions and he was willing to compromise the NW for his sister.  Bowen is a hero in many ways.  Jon was the villain, the traitor, the disgrace in A Dance With Dragons. 

Nice joke Rond... Roswell, sorry read the name wrong.  I really had a good laugh thank you. As anyone who has read the books and was able to comprehend, and I'm pretty sure you are among us, those who are able to comprehend what they read in the books, Jon has no say in the decision for Arya mission. Bag of Bones/Mance is a prisoner of Stannis, not Jon, left at the care of Mel, who bound him by magic, those wildling women he takes with you are also prisoners of Stannis, not Jon, Stannis being the one who captured them. Jon has no sway over neither bag of bones nor Mel. Mel may very well send bag of bones on a tour of the free cities if she so wishes. 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Roswell said:

This is not the case at all.  Bowen Marsh killed the traitor, Jon Snow, to save the NW and Westeros.  It was Jon Snow who was the traitor to the NW.  Jon's decisions with regards to the mission to get his sister were acts of treason.  Jon let emotions control his decisions and he was willing to compromise the NW for his sister.  Bowen is a hero in many ways.  Jon was the villain, the traitor, the disgrace in A Dance With Dragons. 

Your turn to draw the “Jon Snow is the the devil” post I see. 

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree but did we not already have a thread on this recently?

Yes, many many threads.  Some trolls just can't get enough.

[GZ Bloodraven]

 

On 3/7/2023 at 8:07 PM, King Benedict Justman I said:

He is a true coward of a man.

I don't think it's fair to call Bowen Marsh a coward: it is pretty frikin brave to stab your Lord Commander to death because you think that he not only broke his vow by bringing the Wildling's through the wall, but also that he values family loyalty above his brothers and the reputation of the Watch. He's wrong: Jon doesn't want 100,000 more wights marching on the Wall and he recognizes the threat to the Night's Watch and the Realms of Men if House Bolton controls the North (and also he wants to save Arya). But he's not a coward and I don't think he actively wants the Others to win.

 

19 hours ago, Roswell said:

Jon's decisions with regards to the mission to get his sister were acts of treason.  Jon let emotions control his decisions and he was willing to compromise the NW for his sister.  Bowen is a hero in many ways.  Jon was the villain, the traitor, the disgrace in A Dance With Dragons. 

This is phenomenally wrong, but I suspect you know that. Killing a competent leader who recognizes the threat of the Others and the need for a united north not around some sadistic bastard raping his sister and his vampire dad, but around a common cause, is not heroic behavior. It's seriously misguided, and lacking in a pretty basic understanding of the stakes. I'll give him a pass because 6 months earlier The Weeper almost killed him, but Bowen in no way is the hero, and Jon in no way was the villain. There aren't heroes and villains in this story to begin with, and they definitely don't fall across the lines that you suggest.

[Corvo the Crow]

48 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I don't think it's fair to call Bowen Marsh a coward: it is pretty frikin brave to stab your Lord Commander to death because you think that he not only broke his vow by bringing the Wildling's through the wall, but also that he values family loyalty above his brothers and the reputation of the Watch. He's wrong: Jon doesn't want 100,000 more wights marching on the Wall and he recognizes the threat to the Night's Watch and the Realms of Men if House Bolton controls the North (and also he wants to save Arya). But he's not a coward and I don't think he actively wants the Others to win.

 

Yeah pretty brave to go four on one especially when everyone's distracted by a giant smashing the would be stealer of Jon's wife. Bowen Marsh is the textparchment definition of a craven, only guy who is more craven than him in the entire watch is Alliser Thorne who acts all a big tough knight but is so afraid of Jon after their confrontation and tries to finish him off through intrigue the fucking coward.

Quote

Slynt purpled. “Murder? You insolent pup. King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son.” He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. “Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King’s Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell.”

"My lord is wise.” Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm.

Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon’s fingers had left on his neck. “You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling.”

Jon really can't berserk kick his ass fast enough. Also I bet Janos' head is feeling lonely, Jon should just cut it off and give it to his witch wife so she can make them chat, Clarence Crabb style.

[GZ Bloodraven]

13 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yeah pretty brave to go four on one especially when everyone's distracted by a giant smashing the would be stealer of Jon's wife. Bowen Marsh is the textparchment definition of a craven, only guy who is more craven than him in the entire watch is Alliser Thorne who acts all a big tough knight but is so afraid of Jon after their confrontation and tries to finish him off through intrigue the fucking coward.

I'm not saying he's a bastion of bravery, and Alliser Thorne is definitely a coward, but the dude pulled a Brutus and I wouldn't call Brutus a craven. Maybe you would. 

[Corvo the Crow]

17 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I'm not saying he's a bastion of bravery, and Alliser Thorne is definitely a coward, but the dude pulled a Brutus and I wouldn't call Brutus a craven. Maybe you would. 

I must admit that I can't recall the exact nature of Caesar getting murdered. Did he have his guard around him that were at least roughly equal in number to the stabbers? If so yes, brave indeed. If not, then nope, ganging up on some old fella who wasn't even expecting such a cowardly attack is well, cowardice at it's finest.

[GZ Bloodraven]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I must admit that I can't recall the exact nature of Caesar getting murdered. Did he have his guard around him that were at least roughly equal in number to the stabbers? If so yes, brave indeed. If not, then nope, ganging up on some old fella who wasn't even expecting such a cowardly attack is well, cowardice at it's finest.

He was just walking to work; it was 60 on 1, and they intercepted Mark Antony who was going to warn him. I guess you'd call that cowardly, but if I believed what they believed (that this dude took full control of the institution, violated 100/8000 years of precedence, and started breaking all traditions and vows), it would be cowardly to just sit by and let it happen. Maybe I'm being too charitable to Bowen Marsh, but I can't fault the guy for acting on his principles and coordinating a successful coup. 

[Corvo the Crow]

13 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

He was just walking to work; it was 60 on 1, and they intercepted Mark Antony who was going to warn him. I guess you'd call that cowardly, but if I believed what they believed (that this dude took full control of the institution, violated 100/8000 years of precedence, and started breaking all traditions and vows), it would be cowardly to just sit by and let it happen. Maybe I'm being too charitable to Bowen Marsh, but I can't fault the guy for acting on his principles and coordinating a successful coup. 

Bowen has no rights here though. He should've taken his complaints to the king if he felt such a breach was happening instead he ganged up on unsuspecting Jon taking advantage of the distraction caused by Ser Potato Rect and Jon worrying over Val. Literally, his first thought is Val.

Quote

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. “That come from Hardin’s Tower, m’lord,” Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

Val, was Jon’s first thought. But that was no woman’s scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. “Is it wights?” asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?

[GZ Bloodraven]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Bowen has no rights here though. He should've taken his complaints to the king if he felt such a breach was happening instead he ganged up on unsuspecting Jon taking advantage of the distraction caused by Ser Potato Rect and Jon worrying over Val. Literally, his first thought is Val.

It wasn't like "oh let's think about how we are going to do this, maybe we should talk to Stannis, maybe Stannis will tell Jon that he can't resign from being Lord Commander;" he thought Jon was full-on traitor, breaking oaths, harboring a wildling army that was gonna march on Winterfell. And he acted: I don't think the act itself is cowardly, maybe doing it while Jon didn't have time to defend himself, like, be more of a man and face the potential consequences of this spontaneous assassination? But Jon would have 100% beat them, the stewards don'w know how to fight, that's why they're stewards. I think Bowen did the best he could with his knowledge of the situation and I don't think it's fair to call him craven for doing it. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Also Bowen using the argument of the Watch's neutrality is hypocritical given how he himself turned on that policy by supporting Janos Slynt as candidate for Lord commander just to placate the Lannisters, which goes against the neutrality he preaches to Jon, and despite it being obvious that Slynt is a corrupt, cowardly and incompetent asshole, not counting how the Lannisters have breached themselves that neutrality by assaulting one of the NW convoys and tried to interfere in the Watch affairs. 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Also Bowen using the argument of the Watch's neutrality is hypocritical given how he himself turned on that policy by supporting Janos Slynt as candidate for Lord commander just to placate the Lannisters, which goes against the neutrality he preaches to Jon, and despite it being obvious that Slynt is a corrupt, cowardly and incompetent asshole, not counting how the Lannisters have breached themselves that neutrality by assaulting one of the NW convoys and tried to interfere in the Watch affairs. 

Yea Bowen is a hypocrite and pure scum. Trust me, I hate the guy like most sane people here, but the guy isn’t a coward. He’s an idiot and a bigot for certain, but no coward. He did lead his men into battle at the Bridge of Skulls……..but like I said he’s and idiot and got nearly himself and over 100 of his men killed in the battle.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea Bowen is a hypocrite and pure scum. Trust me, I hate the guy like most sane people here, but the guy isn’t a coward. He’s an idiot and a bigot for certain, but no coward. He did lead his men into battle at the Bridge of Skulls……..

 

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

but like I said he’s and idiot and got nearly himself and over 100 of his men killed in the battle.

Indeed. And this will corrected as soon as we get a PoV at CB in TWoW.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea Bowen is a hypocrite and pure scum. Trust me, I hate the guy like most sane people here, but the guy isn’t a coward. He’s an idiot and a bigot for certain, but no coward. He did lead his men into battle at the Bridge of Skulls……..but like I said he’s and idiot and got nearly himself and over 100 of his men killed in the battle.

Fighting against a bunch of guys with bits and pieces of armor and worn steel or iron weapons or even bone/wood/etc. while fully armed and armored, with many brothers beside you who are also equipped as such is really not comparable going 4 on 1 to a single unsuspecting guy.

Edit: Also bridge of skulls was really bloody, perhaps he could've taken a more defensive stance, we aren't told much, but he didn't have many options there, even if he knew of Mance's main attack, he still had to deal with that force.

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Fighting against a bunch of guys with bits and pieces of armor and worn steel or iron weapons or even bone/wood/etc. while fully armed and armored, with many brothers beside you who are also equipped as such is really not comparable going 4 on 1 to a single unsuspecting guy.

Edit: Also bridge of skulls was really bloody, perhaps he could've taken a more defensive stance, we aren't told much, but he didn't have many options there, even if he knew of Mance's main attack, he still had to deal with that force.

Just saying the guy isn’t a coward like Balon for example; who let all of his family members fight his battles for him, while he sat on the sidelines. Believe me, I hate Bowen, I just can’t call him a coward is all.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

I just can’t call him a coward is all.

You can at least say whether the act itself is cowardly or not.