The cold hard truth of the Others.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 3/9/2023 at 6:32 PM, John Suburbs said:

And hold on to your hat for this one: there is only vague, circumstantial evidence that the Others are the ones raising and controlling the wights. We are five novels into the series and we have yet to see this. In fact, the only time we see an Other and a wight in the same place at the same time is the one riding the dead horse. So not only do we not see the Other raise the horse, but it doesn't control it any differently from a normal horse; he just dismounts and the horse just wanders off with no compulsion to kill the living. It doesn't even have the burning blue eyes. And since Others can glide evenly over the top of snow, why would one need to ride any kind of horse, living or dead? So this whole scene is very odd.

 

Mostly agree but... Waymar Wight is clearly raised after being slain by an Other. Is it the Others who raised it? One may argue that there is no direct evidence.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, Old Nan doesn't even get the present right. How can she possibly be trusted with the ancient, mythological past?

But Old Nan doesn't get it right. She paints the Others as an evil force. I'm saying the author has hidden clues to the truth in the words of her story. See that's how subversion works. You steer the reader down a well-known road, making the reader think the Others are the evil enemy, while placing clues to where you're really going. This is exactly what I see in Old Nan's story.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Remember the tale of the sealord's cat? Dont trust what people say. Look with your eyes, hear with your ears, and the truth you will know. This was not just a minor plot point. This is Martin telling readers how to approach the text.

I remember it well. It's not a plot point at all. It's part of the development of a theme about truth and power. It's related to Varys's riddle about power residing where men believe it resides, a shadow on the wall, a trick. The shadow on the wall may fool some people, a lot of people actually, but not the trueseeing.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Facts matter, and the fact is that there is no indication whatsoever that the Others are moving sough, and only the barest circumstantial evidence that they are connected to the wights.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Who else could be raising the wights? Take your pick. Bloodraven, the horror in Bran's coma dream, the children, the green men, any number of shadowbinders, necromancers, mages or even maesters (there's one in King's Landing right now who seems to be able to raise the dead.) Or it could be the loss of some magical ward that had kept them down all these years, or just a natural phenomenon. The point is, the evidence for the Others being behind this is sketchy at best.

You dismiss the Others due to what you describe as circumstantial evidence not being strong enough and then propose a bunch of alternatives with less evidence instead?

As for Qyburn, I wouldn't be so sure he's raising the dead. Where's the fact based evidence that Gregor is dead? Where's the evidence that Robert Strong is a wight?

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I never said the Other's aren't important to the story, just not to expect them to play the role of the evil players in a doomsday battle for the world.

I made it clear in the OP that I do not consider them evil, no more than I consider the season of winter to be evil.

You're the one proposing that they are not moving south or controlling the wights, so I'm left to wonder what important role you see them playing?

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Martin has been very clear on this subject numerous times: that is a tired old trope that's been done to death in fantasy literature, and he is doing something different in asioaf. And yes, he also said this story, like all stories, is about the human heart in conflict with itself, not with magical, non-human ice-hearts.

As I said, Martin's comments support the OP. And If you read the OP you'll see that I'm proposing that the conflicts within the hearts of people is the cause of the problem, not the conflict in the hearts of the Others. That people need strength and courage to look at themselves, take responsibility, and not blame their problems on Others.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So ultimately, this all comes down to reader expectations. Readers expect the Others to be evil, the wights are their evil minions and it will all come to a head in the final battle. But judging by the five books so far, Martin loves nothing more than to subvert readers' expectations.

I agree with all this, but I'm going a step further in the OP by showing you how he will subvert that expectation by examining the clues he left along the way, as he always does.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So ultimately, this all comes down to reader expectations. Readers expect the Others to be evil, the wights are their evil minions and it will all come to a head in the final battle. But judging by the five books so far, Martin loves nothing more than to subvert readers' expectations.

I agree that the Others likely are not evil, but that doesn't mean that they won't present an existential threat to humanity. It's likely that they're just self-interested, and if conditions arrive for them to explore more of the terrain and "gather more resources" for themselves, extinguishing pesky sources of heat in the process, then they will take that opportunity. 

In that sense, they are more like a natural calamity than an evil villain. Or rather, they are a supernatural calamity, GRRM's semi-ecological spin on a Lovecraftian trope. Yet it was humanity who forgot the histories, who ignored the warnings, who fight one another instead of banding together, and maybe some who will actually invite the disaster in. So it's still an indictment of humankind, but one that will likely involve the existential threat of the Others moving South, at least once a new Long Night allows them to travel more freely away from the Land of Always Winter.

[The Sleeper]

Deleted

[John Suburbs]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:28 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Mostly agree but... Waymar Wight is clearly raised after being slain by an Other. Is it the Others who raised it? One may argue that there is no direct evidence.

 

Read it again. Waymar is slain, then the Others leave without raising him. Will stays up in the tree for a "long time" as the "moon crept slowly across the black sky," and all this time, Waymar lays there, face down in the snow. Will climbs down and only then does Waymar rise. The Others are long gone by then.

[John Suburbs]

On 3/10/2023 at 8:39 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

But Old Nan doesn't get it right. She paints the Others as an evil force. I'm saying the author has hidden clues to the truth in the words of her story. See that's how subversion works. You steer the reader down a well-known road, making the reader think the Others are the evil enemy, while placing clues to where you're really going. This is exactly what I see in Old Nan's story.

Yes, there is always some truth in any myth, but all the stuff about the Wall and the honor of the NW and all the rest is highly suspect. The Wall is made of ice. The Others make weapons and armor out of ice, and presumably dwellings and structures as well, since that's all they have to work with, apparently. So why would anyone think a Wall of ice is going to do anything to stop them? Why isn't it far more logical that the ice creatures who make things of ice made the giant wall of ice too, to stop humans from moving north, not the other way around?

Quote

I remember it well. It's not a plot point at all. It's part of the development of a theme about truth and power. It's related to Varys's riddle about power residing where men believe it resides, a shadow on the wall, a trick. The shadow on the wall may fool some people, a lot of people actually, but not the trueseeing.

The SLC is a lesson on not just believing what people say. Look at the facts. That's where the truth lies. So the shadow on the wall in this case would be the Others waging the armageddon battle against men -- because that is one of the biggest reader expectations out there, despite the fact that Martin has made it very clear it is not going to happen.

Quote

You dismiss the Others due to what you describe as circumstantial evidence not being strong enough and then propose a bunch of alternatives with less evidence instead?

I don't dismiss the Others. I simply acknowledge the fact that there is previous little evidence to support what most readers say is a done deal. You wanted alternatives to the Others raising the wights. There they are -- and some of them do have more evidence for reanimating the dead than the Others.

Quote

As for Qyburn, I wouldn't be so sure he's raising the dead. Where's the fact based evidence that Gregor is dead? Where's the evidence that Robert Strong is a wight?

Yes, there are all kinds of questions about what Qyburn is doing and why, just as there are questions about what the Others are doing, and why.

Quote

I made it clear in the OP that I do not consider them evil, no more than I consider the season of winter to be evil.

You're the one proposing that they are not moving south or controlling the wights, so I'm left to wonder what important role you see them playing?

It's not just that they are not evil, but they do not seem overly intent on breaching the Wall or moving south. So again, who knows what they are doing. The possibilities are endless.

Quote

As I said, Martin's comments support the OP. And If you read the OP you'll see that I'm proposing that the conflicts within the hearts of people is the cause of the problem, not the conflict in the hearts of the Others. That people need strength and courage to look at themselves, take responsibility, and not blame their problems on Others.

I agree with all this, but I'm going a step further in the OP by showing you how he will subvert that expectation by examining the clues he left along the way, as he always does.

One person's clue is another's red herring. There are all manner of "clues" about all kinds of things throughout the text. All I'm saying is not to build an expectation around something that, so far, has previous little evidence to support it -- and direct comments from the author that refute it.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:00 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I agree that the Others likely are not evil, but that doesn't mean that they won't present an existential threat to humanity. It's likely that they're just self-interested, and if conditions arrive for them to explore more of the terrain and "gather more resources" for themselves, extinguishing pesky sources of heat in the process, then they will take that opportunity. 

In that sense, they are more like a natural calamity than an evil villain. Or rather, they are a supernatural calamity, GRRM's semi-ecological spin on a Lovecraftian trope. Yet it was humanity who forgot the histories, who ignored the warnings, who fight one another instead of banding together, and maybe some who will actually invite the disaster in. So it's still an indictment of humankind, but one that will likely involve the existential threat of the Others moving South, at least once a new Long Night allows them to travel more freely away from the Land of Always Winter.

Sure, they are like any other race: looking to survive and thrive. So in that way they are no more an existential threat than insects or viruses. All I'm saying is that so far, there is nothing to indicate that they are moving south toward the Wall or beyond. We've seen a grand total of six or so, on only two separate occasions. So at this point, the threat level is very low. Hardly a calamity.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, they are like any other race: looking to survive and thrive. So in that way they are no more an existential threat than insects or viruses.

Viruses have the ability to wipe out whole populations. Whole species, theoretically speaking. If that were the case, then the spread of such a super-virus would indeed be quite frightening.

I agree that, sensitive as they are to heat and sunlight, the Others currently don't pose an existential threat.

But we know about an ancient period called The Long Night, an extended period of darkness and cold. And it was that time that the Others headed South and laid waste to Westeros with their ever-growing armies of undead thralls.

As of the end of Book 5, the Long Night remains an ancient legend. But do you truly think that there won't be a similar mechanism that allows this ancient threat to descend upon the realms of men once again?

I'm guessing it will happen in the next book.

And yet if it never happens in the course of the ASOIAF story, well, then I will angrily toss my copies of GRRM's books and search for better authors.

[LongRider]

In the ADWD Prologue, as Varamyr dies, he tries to skinchange Thistle, who fights him so terribly she bites her own tongue out and claws at her eyes and face.  He vacates her body as she dies and his soul flies into the wolf One Eye.  The wolves run up a ridge and when he looks back, Thistle and the other dead bodies from the village have turned into wights.  Varamyr does not report on seeing any Others.  I put the passage under the spoiler tag. 

Spoiler

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.
The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.
That was his last thought as a man.
True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.
When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he'd done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were naked, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these.
The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.
She sees me.

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

12 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Varamyr does not report on seeing any Others.

He doesn't report on seeing Others, but both Waymar and Thistle have the burning pale blue eyes of the others when they rise after death.

I think the likely explanation is that the Others can peer through and control their corpses from great distances.

There's also this evocative passage in the Varamyr chapter, symbolically pointing to what may be controlling the Others, or at least what they're guarding up North:

"He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice."

[Mithras]

Quote

GRRM: "Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem."

I don't think any explanation for the Others or the Long Night is fully accurate if they don't accomodate GRRM's ideas about the handling of magic in fantasy, especially the one above.

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

but both Waymar and Thistle have the burning pale blue eyes of the others when they rise after death.

Did you mean wights?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

44 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did you mean wights?

I meant that the wights, like all wights, have eyes like the burning blue eyes of the Others. Not openly stating, but implying monitoring and control, even if they're not physically present.

Edit: Do people have different interpretations of this dynamic? I didn't realize it was controversial.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t think GRRM knows what the deal is with the Others, and if he does, it isn’t going to be resolved by something climactic or that makes for good television. If it was, the show wouldn’t have had to come up with their own, fairly anti-climactic solution.

[TheBlackSwan]

Quote

- Did you like the Others that come out in the last chapter of the second season?

- The Fist of the First Men is quite different in the books. The landscape itself is different in the series, there are no trees in Iceland. In the novels there is an old fortress, a mountain, probably artificial, and a very dense forest that surrounds the whole area, and then you have the hill, which is more or less bare, with a ring of stones on top that makes it defensible , slopes quite steep and in the background there is a very thick forest, so when the enemy attacks it is not really visible, much less its number. The Night's Watch has no idea how many enemies lie in wait for them until they start to emerge from the trees and up the hill. As they get closer, they have a clearer vision of what they are facing and what the Others bring with them, such as dead bears ... which I hope we will see in the next season, because a zombie bear would be very cool (laughs). There are many Others, but we do not know the exact number. In Iceland it is different, because the terrain is rather flat and there are no trees that cover the terrain, so it is easier to see the amount of enemies that are approaching. As for the White Walkers, for the series they have created their own design, and yes, it is very different from the description of the books. The Others in the books are much more beautiful for a simple reason, which also makes them harder to see: because their ice armor is essentially reflective, so they use this disguise to reflect the trees and the earth around them. But there is also a cruel, sharp side to the beauty of the Others that we do not see in the series.
INTERVIEW IN AVILÉS http://www.asshai.com/martin/entrevistas/entrevistaaviles.php
(link is dead but you can find the interview on http://searcherr.work/ )

 

[three-eyed monkey]

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

Why isn't it far more logical that the ice creatures who make things of ice made the giant wall of ice too, to stop humans from moving north, not the other way around?

Because it is the humans who control the Wall. If the Others or their wights manned the Wall then I might consider it.

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

The SLC is a lesson on not just believing what people say. Look at the facts. That's where the truth lies. So the shadow on the wall in this case would be the Others waging the armageddon battle against men

I would say that the Others are agents of truth, and their war is not against men as such but rather the corruption of the realm of men by agents of lies. Qyburn tells Jamie how best to deal with corruption.

Quote

He sliced away Jaime's sleeve. "The corruption has spread. See how tender the flesh is? I must cut it all away. The safest course would be to take the arm off."

I believe this explains why the Others will invade the realm. To cut away the corruption and lies and as such will force the realm to return to the truth if it is to survive. For this, the realm will require a true king and a true sword, Lightbringer, to bring back the light of truth and allow truth dawn on the realm once again. Once that dawn is brought back, the Others who hate the touch of the sun, will recede once more, the corruption having been cut away.

The Others are described as white shadows. The kingsguard too are described as white shadows. The kingsguard are supposed to be the finest knights in the realm, but that is not true. Like the rest of the realm, the kingsguard has become corrupt. The parallel is drawn between the two because the Others are "true knights" in a way.

We are told that cold preserves while fire consumes. As such I see the cold and ice as symbolic of the truth, as the truth preserves while lies consume. The blue eyes of the Others are eyes that see the truth. The truth the Others will bring to the realm is cold and hard. But Jon Snow is someone who would rather face a hard truth when most men would rather deny it. That's why I believe Jon will return with blue eyes before the end of Winds. He will be the blue eyed king with a red sword who casts no shadow.

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

because that is one of the biggest reader expectations out there, despite the fact that Martin has made it very clear it is not going to happen.

I believe what GRRM said was that the evil dark lord thing is not going to happen. And while he is certainly using that common trope to lead reader expectations, I believe he will subvert that trope in the manner I've described and bring the story back to the conflict in the hearts of people as the cause of the realms problems, while at the same time maintaining high stakes with an existential threat.

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

I don't dismiss the Others. I simply acknowledge the fact that there is previous little evidence to support what most readers say is a done deal. You wanted alternatives to the Others raising the wights. There they are -- and some of them do have more evidence for reanimating the dead than the Others.

Some characters do have more evidence for reanimating the dead, but do you really think Thoros or Qyburn raised Wymar Royce or Othor? Do you think some other character sent wights against the Fist. There's probably some case to be made here for Bloodraven, but personally I don't think so. The greenseer, who will soon be replaced by Bran, does have a roll to play in the climax of the story but again we are going back to the symbolism of the third-eye and seeing the truth.

Quote

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart."

The face can be a masque, misleading, like a shadow on the wall. The heart is where you find the truth of people.

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, there are all kinds of questions about what Qyburn is doing and why, just as there are questions about what the Others are doing, and why.

And the answer to both is the shadows men cast.

Even though there is a connection, like every strand of the story, Qyburn is too much of a tangent here. I'll re-post an old essay on Qyburn and Robert Strong, and if anyone is interested we can debate that idea separately on it's own thread.

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

t's not just that they are not evil, but they do not seem overly intent on breaching the Wall or moving south. So again, who knows what they are doing. The possibilities are endless.

They cannot pass so long as the men of the Watch stay true. Now that there is chaos at Castle Black, I think we will see the Others advance in Winds. The title of the book relates to the cold winds rising, which is used as a metaphor in the story for the Long Night. The story is moving into the third act now, so I do expect it to happen soon. We'll have to agree to disagree here until Winds comes out because I really can't see this not happening.

On 3/13/2023 at 3:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

One person's clue is another's red herring.

Absolutely. I'm all for healthy debate.

On 3/13/2023 at 4:33 PM, Mithras said:

I don't think any explanation for the Others or the Long Night is fully accurate if they don't accomodate GRRM's ideas about the handling of magic in fantasy, especially the one above.

Well magic is part of the world, and there may be magical elements to the climax of the story, like the Others or the re-forging Lightbringer, but the solution I'm proposing is a very human one at its core. It's about resolving the conflict of the human heart. I don't see anything in that quote by GRRM that disputes what I'm saying.

 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Because it is the humans who control the Wall. If the Others or their wights manned the Wall then I might consider it.

I would say that the Others are agents of truth, and their war is not against men as such but rather the corruption of the realm of men by agents of lies. Qyburn tells Jamie how best to deal with corruption.

I believe this explains why the Others will invade the realm. To cut away the corruption and lies and as such will force the realm to return to the truth if it is to survive. For this, the realm will require a true king and a true sword, Lightbringer, to bring back the light of truth and allow truth dawn on the realm once again. Once that dawn is brought back, the Others who hate the touch of the sun, will recede once more, the corruption having been cut away.

The Others are described as white shadows. The kingsguard too are described as white shadows. The kingsguard are supposed to be the finest knights in the realm, but that is not true. Like the rest of the realm, the kingsguard has become corrupt. The parallel is drawn between the two because the Others are "true knights" in a way.

We are told that cold preserves while fire consumes. As such I see the cold and ice as symbolic of the truth, as the truth preserves while lies consume. The blue eyes of the Others are eyes that see the truth. The truth the Others will bring to the realm is cold and hard. But Jon Snow is someone who would rather face a hard truth when most men would rather deny it. That's why I believe Jon will return with blue eyes before the end of Winds. He will be the blue eyed king with a red sword who casts no shadow.

I believe what GRRM said was that the evil dark lord thing is not going to happen. And while he is certainly using that common trope to lead reader expectations, I believe he will subvert that trope in the manner I've described and bring the story back to the conflict in the hearts of people as the cause of the realms problems, while at the same time maintaining high stakes with an existential threat.

Some characters do have more evidence for reanimating the dead, but do you really think Thoros or Qyburn raised Wymar Royce or Othor? Do you think some other character sent wights against the Fist. There's probably some case to be made here for Bloodraven, but personally I don't think so. The greenseer, who will soon be replaced by Bran, does have a roll to play in the climax of the story but again we are going back to the symbolism of the third-eye and seeing the truth.

The face can be a masque, misleading, like a shadow on the wall. The heart is where you find the truth of people.

And the answer to both is the shadows men cast.

Even though there is a connection, like every strand of the story, Qyburn is too much of a tangent here. I'll re-post an old essay on Qyburn and Robert Strong, and if anyone is interested we can debate that idea separately on it's own thread.

They cannot pass so long as the men of the Watch stay true. Now that there is chaos at Castle Black, I think we will see the Others advance in Winds. The title of the book relates to the cold winds rising, which is used as a metaphor in the story for the Long Night. The story is moving into the third act now, so I do expect it to happen soon. We'll have to agree to disagree here until Winds comes out because I really can't see this not happening.

Absolutely. I'm all for healthy debate.

Well magic is part of the world, and there may be magical elements to the climax of the story, like the Others or the re-forging Lightbringer, but the solution I'm proposing is a very human one at its core. It's about resolving the conflict of the human heart. I don't see anything in that quote by GRRM that disputes what I'm saying.

 

Well, the Wall was built thousands of years ago, before recorded history. Men control it now, but who knows when that actually started, or whether the Others felt it was necessary to man it at all. The Children of the Forest used to control the entire continent, and now they don't. Men do.

All the rest is perfectly plausible. But my point has always been that there is little or no evidence for it, so it's self-defeating to craft a theory based on the idea that this is all a done deal. It's not.

[Nadden]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:18 PM, Mourning Star said:

I always come back to thinking of the origin of the name, A Song of Ice and Fire, the poem by Frost, Fire and Ice:

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

“Fire and Ice”, the very antithesis of the entire series, is literally starring directly at us, in the eyes, and most can’t see it. And when we do finally see it we realize it’s just the beginning. But the only way we can hope to see it is to first get out of our own head and start seeing everything from the proper perspective. For some, including me, that’s been difficult.

Take for example, the imagery Martin creates in Waymar’s eyes from Will‘s perspective. The left eye bleeding with blood described as “red as fire” previously and the right eye which burns blue like the others eyes described “like ice” perfectly illustrates the title of Robert Frost’s poem, Fire and Ice……. “For Robert!”.

One eye blind with desire and the other saw hate.

 

Quote

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

  A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers. (AGOT, Prologue)

The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. (AGOT, Prologue)

 

 

Quote

…The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw. (AGOT, Prologue)

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.(AGOT, Prologue)

So when we consider the arrangement of the eyes or words describing them. They seem in perfect order relative to the title of the poem. And then my thoughts went further. The words are in reverse order in the title of Martin’s series. What does this say about the story? Does it somehow mean the story is the reverse of the poem? Or are we looking at the imagery from the wrong point of view? In the scene we’re seeing Waymar’s  eyes, the main protagonist, from Will’s point of view. So what Will calls a “left eye” is actually Waymar’s right eye, and so forth. So instead of looking from the outside in; should we be looking from the inside out?

 

I also find it interesting that he describes blood like fire and titles a later book “Fire & Blood”; which is what the new HBO series is based on. Martin says there’s a part 2 for “Fire & Blood”. “Ice & ?” What?? Ice & sapphire? Ice & Eye? Ice & Gem. Will it be based on the family history of House Stark, since Fire and Blood was about House Targaryen?

[kissdbyfire]

32 minutes ago, Nadden said:

I also find it interesting that he describes blood like fire and titles a later book “Fire & Blood”; which is what the new HBO series is based on. Martin says there’s a part 2 for “Fire & Blood”. “Ice & ?” What?? Ice & sapphire? Ice & Eye? Ice & Gem. Will it be based on the family history of House Stark, since Fire and Blood was about House Targaryen?

Fire & Blood 2, it continues the “history” of the Targaryens, picking up from where

F&B 1 ended. 

[BalerionTheCat]

Ice preserve. But Ice kills too. A rampage like the Riverlands and everyone is dead the next winter. The Nord is too poor to feed men doing nothing but training for battle. Anyway, even in the best case, men die of hunger and cold during the long winters.