KingStoneheart Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Curled Finger said: Like Coldhands then? Yes, Coldhands may not be the only wight on the Three Eyed Crows’ side and is a nice throw off from GRRM saying that Benjen isn’t Coldhands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Curled Finger said: Again I thank you for the further elaboration. You always make me think bigger and in this case, more depressing! Sorry But there is some solace: I don't believe George will ever reveal Benjen's fate outright on page. In his prior writing he has some people go missing or already absent early on in the story, often as a motivator for the protagonists to go looking for them. These missing people are never found, and instead the protagonists experience troubles and dire circumstances, where their own end up dying, so that eventually the search mission becomes its own story of loss and survival, with only the protagonist surviving or ending up lost themselves. Benjen disappearing, and it being the prime motivator for the great ranging and only about a score of men surviving it all is similar to this. So, the fate of the missing person is left vague but the reader can imagine to it being something in the line of what the protagonists experienced, except the missing person became one of the fatalities. He's especially prone to write such a scenario with the missing people being worthy of being searched, where you as reader have a feeling of melancholy combined with hope for missing heroes. Former short stories where George uses this are Song for Lya The Stone City Into the Lost Lands On the one hand, George does not wish to destroy the reader's hope that it may have gone differently, on the other hand he gives enough indications in the present that yeah, it went very badly. How or what precisely is for the reader to opt. I tend to appreciate him creating this lifeline of hope for the reader, but recognize that the actual chances are nihil. Two of his party ended up dead and as wights. The great ranging found nothing on him. Only a few managed to survive the great ranging, and those who did all made for the Wall. There's no way that Benjen would remain somewhere hidden for that long if he was alive or undead like Coldhands. And if he was aided by CotF somehow, then he'd be featured in the Bran plot. The sole one we saw helping the NW and Bran as undead was Coldhands, and he ain't Benjen. Benjen went the way like Stonesnake... disappeared and never to return or seen again. The alternative is worse than Benjen having died a hero's death, that he's alive and hiding and not helping anyone. It doesn't make the great ranging storyline or even Benjen gone missing pointless - without Benjen going missing they wouldn't have gone on the great ranging, and Sam would not have rediscovered the use of obsidian, would be able to help Bran pass the Black Gate north, and Jon wouldn't have realized that wildlings are part of the realm of men. Edited March 9, 2023 by sweetsunray Curled Finger and Phylum of Alexandria 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 It had occurred to me that Benjen might never show up due to being eaten…a serious risk in the wilds with winter approaching. I’d also played around with the idea that Craster killed him or let him die when he came expecting succour. I don’t think I’d combined them, but I can’t say for sure, probably depends on how recently I’d been reminded of GRRM’s love of horror. Curled Finger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 I wish there was a Yikes emoji! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 I think he's too prominent a character and mentioned too often to just simply disappear. I don't see the point in killing him, but I'm not sure where he might be. Hardhome, Leaf's cave, and Skagos all come to mind. If the White Walkers have intelligence, he might be with them, either as prisoner or envoy. Of course, this may all be just wishful thinking on my part. Curled Finger and LongRider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, Nevets said: I think he's too prominent a character and mentioned too often to just simply disappear. I don't see the point in killing him, but I'm not sure where he might be. Hardhome, Leaf's cave, and Skagos all come to mind. If the White Walkers have intelligence, he might be with them, either as prisoner or envoy. Of course, this may all be just wishful thinking on my part. Skaggos!!! You can be the only other wishful thinker in the world with me, Nevets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) I also now have this image in my mind of Robert Pugh steaming about tyranny and government overreach sitting on his front porch holding the warrant as the NW CSI team busily searches for forensic evidence in and around the Keep behind him. Edited March 9, 2023 by James Arryn Curled Finger and sweetsunray 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Skaggos!!! If he is, then his blood does not run black and the NW aren't his brothers. Then he deserted the NW, not informing anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 51 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: If he is, then his blood does not run black and the NW aren't his brothers. Then he deserted the NW, not informing anyone We are romantics! There could be a reason! For all we know honor could demand it or an old promise or something. Have ye no hope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: We are romantics! There could be a reason! For all we know honor could demand it or an old promise or something. Have ye no hope? I'm no less a romantic I hope he died a hero, rather than lived to abandon the Watch completely, and have close to 300 NW men die in search for him, just because he forgot how to send a raven. Edited March 9, 2023 by sweetsunray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 There's something ominous about the 'we'll talk more when I see you again' thing, but in this case I believe that Jon and Benjen will meet again. After he's up and around again I think that the Bloodraven faction will reach out to Jon and Benjen Stark might be their best emissary. What's he up to now? Idunno, but I'll bet it's on Old Man Rivers' behalf. It seems like Craster lies about not having seen him and this could be interpreted as him not wanting to admit that he knows what was done to Benjen, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the secret he was keeping is that Benjen's dead. Curled Finger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I am always interested in the why of your thinking and appreciate your point of view. I found a raven quote pretty early on in the research. The raven parrots Mormont saying he was a fool to send Benjen on the quest in the 1st place. I doubt you place it all on the raven so cough it up. Why is Benjen absolutely dead? Oh I'm not sure he's dead! I only think he is... in part b/c I put a lot of faith in anything Bloodraven Mormont's raven says. I also think there's a fair chance we'll never learn what happened to him. I just don't see how he could be alive at this point, especially after ADwD. There's no word, no one's seen him, he wasn't at the CotF cave, not a peep about him from the free folk. And it's been what, 2, 3 years? And we haven't seen or heard from any of the other rangers who went w/ him... Two were wightified, but what about the other 4 (+ Benjen)? Probably wightified or sausagerised. At one point many years ago, I thought he might have been wounded in his ranging and would make his way back to the Wall. Being unable to return to CB, he'd go hide and heal in one of the abandoned castles to then turn up at CB at some crucial moment. I thought that b/c of something Jon says at some point, about crows hiding in these abandoned castles and that it had been Benjen who started this practice of using these castles as temporary hideouts. But now I think that was just wishful thinking. Edited March 10, 2023 by kissdbyfire Curled Finger and sweetsunray 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, sweetsunray said: If he is, then his blood does not run black and the NW aren't his brothers. Then he deserted the NW, not informing anyone Is it desertion when you are a Stark, next in line to the LCship and a senior officer? Benjen visited Winterfell many times after all. Quote I'm no less a romantic I hope he died a hero, rather than lived to abandon the Watch completely, and have close to 300 NW men die in search for him, just because he forgot how to send a raven. Not exactly. They've been losing rangers beyond the Wall and had 4 that Ned caught, also Mance has been building an army. It is not just for Benjen they took 300 out ranging. Edited March 10, 2023 by Corvo the Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Oh I'm not sure he's dead! I only think he is... in part b/c I put a lot of faith in anything Bloodraven Mormont's raven says. I also think there's a fair chance we'll never learn what happened to him. I just don't see how he could be alive at this point, especially after ADwD. There's no word, no one's seen him, he wasn't at the CotF cave, not a peep about him from the free folk. And it's been what, 2, 3 years? And we haven't seen or heard from any of the other rangers who went w/ him... Two were wightified, but what about the other 4 (+ Benjen)? Probably wightified or sausagerised. At one point many years ago, I thought he might have been wounded in his ranging and would make his way back to the Wall. Being unable to return to CB, he'd go hide and heal in one of the abandoned castles to then turn up at CB at some crucial moment. I thought that b/c of something Jon says at some point, about crows hiding in these abandoned castles and that it had been Benjen who started this practice of using these castles as temporary hideouts. But now I think that was just wishful thinking. Wow, thanks so much. I seem to be having epiphanies lately. Years of keeping things to myself I guess I'm just busting out with all these things I've been wondering and finally having the nerve to ask out loud. I'm glad you brought up the other 4 rangers because this sticks in my craw as well. Where the heck are they, too. Odd number of experienced rangers to just be gone. There and again, Jon sure seems to think they could be all over the place as far as the Shadow Tower. But what does Jon know, really? Much as I want Benjen to be alive, I'm not sold that he is. I just want it. Got to thinking how this might impact the story. Does seem a little odd to have an original Stark around in the end, someone who might know about Lyanna and Rhaegar, Jon, maybe those 3rd sons being dedicated to the watch? Could be some interesting revelations if he's alive...or not. I do enjoy your deeper explanations and appreciate the extra words. Here's to wishful thinking! kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Is it desertion when you are a Stark, next in line to the LCship and a senior officer? Benjen visited Winterfell many times after all. Sorry, but that is a false equivalence argument imho. Visiting for a few weeks with the knowledge of the LC is different from making zero effort for close to 3 years to come into contact. It's not about visiting, but somehow making it south of the Wall (Skagos is south) and remaining awol for 3 years. 4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Not exactly. They've been losing rangers beyond the Wall and had 4 that Ned caught, also Mance has been building an army. It is not just for Benjen they took 300 out ranging. Jeor Mormont argues different before his raven pipes 5x dead Quote Mormont dug into a sack and offered his raven a handful of corn. "You think I'm wrong to keep the rangers close?" "That's not for me to say, my lord." "It is if you're asked." "If the rangers must stay in sight of the Fist, I don't see how they can hope to find my uncle," Jon admitted. "They can't." The raven pecked at the kernels in the Old Bear's palm. "Two hundred men or ten thousand, the country is too vast." The corn gone, Mormont turned his hand over. "You would not give up the search?" "Maester Aemon thinks you clever." Mormont moved the raven to his shoulder. The bird tilted its head to one side, little eyes a-glitter. The answer was there. "Is it . . . it seems to me that it might be easier for one man to find two hundred than for two hundred to find one." The raven gave a cackling scream, but the Old Bear smiled through the grey of his beard. "This many men and horses leave a trail even Aemon could follow. On this hill, our fires ought to be visible as far off as the foothills of the Frostfangs. If Ben Stark is alive and free, he will come to us, I have no doubt." (aCoK, Jon IV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 3 hours ago, sweetsunray said: Sorry, but that is a false equivalence argument imho. Visiting for a few weeks with the knowledge of the LC is different from making zero effort for close to 3 years to come into contact. It's not about visiting, but somehow making it south of the Wall (Skagos is south) and remaining awol for 3 years. Jeor Mormont argues different before his raven pipes 5x dead Not to be argumentative, when I was coming up with nothing earlier I was thinking something along the lines of having broken his leg then having to cut it off then live off of it or lying about comatose something along those lines where he wouldn't be able to communicate. I can't see him abandoning his duties or running off on his own agenda without telling someone either. sweetsunray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 4 hours ago, sweetsunray said: Sorry, but that is a false equivalence argument imho. Visiting for a few weeks with the knowledge of the LC is different from making zero effort for close to 3 years to come into contact. It's not about visiting, but somehow making it south of the Wall (Skagos is south) and remaining awol for 3 years. He is a senior officer and one who wasn't sent as a criminal but one who chose to be there in the first place out of his own volition. I doubt very much everytime Yoren goes out collecting the pick of the dungeons that he asks the leave of Papa Bear. And what do you know, perhaps he found an important clue in Skagos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 If he's north of the Wall, communication is going to be difficult. No ravens for one thing. And lots of wights. If he did go to Hardhome, Skagos, etc. he may be stuck with no means of communication. As first ranger he probably would have quite a bit of leeway, just so long as he can claim it is NW business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: I doubt very much everytime Yoren goes out collecting the pick of the dungeons that he asks the leave of Papa Bear. Don't be so sure. Quote "My daughter often forgets her courtesies," Eddard Stark said with a faint smile that softened his words. "I beg your forgiveness, Yoren. Did my brother Benjen send you?" "No one sent me, m'lord, saving old Mormont. I'm here to find men for the Wall, and when Robert next holds court, I'll bend the knee and cry our need, see if the king and his Hand have some scum in the dungeons they'd be well rid of. A Game of Thrones - Arya III Would not be appropriate to be leaving CB for weeks without clearing it with your commanding officer. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, LongRider said: Would not be appropriate to be leaving CB for weeks without clearing it with your commanding officer. It don't need to be that he sent him out literally. Yoren is a "Wandering Crow", so he does this all the time. Since Jeor is the LC and his job is to find more men, it can be considered Jeor sent him, but he doesn't need to have done so. Does Hobb get ordered by Jeor each and every meal of each and every day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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