Is the Azor Ahai Reborn Prophecy the same as the Prince That Was Promised Prophecy?

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Melisandre does have visions of the Others but visions are vague, she didn't see demon of ice and cold but "the dark":

The only people who would know about the Others are the ones who faced them and the only accurate and detailed descriptions of the Others are found in the North, their tales mentions their power to raise the dead, they flee from the sun, stole babies and have freezing blades that can shatter steel. The Others weren't in Essos, they came from the Land of Alaways Winter which only Westeros is connected to.
The legends of Essos mentions a man fighting the "darkness" just like people have visions of the PtwP fighting the "dark", therefore the Essosis legends are based on visions of the Last Hero fighting the Others in Westeros.

I appreciate the quote and the back up on the dark.  I reckon it fits, but I wish it was closer.  I wish a lot of things about Melisandre.  

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Melisandre does have visions of the Others but visions are vague, she didn't see demon of ice and cold but "the dark":

The only people who would know about the Others are the ones who faced them and the only accurate and detailed descriptions of the Others are found in the North, their tales mentions their power to raise the dead, they flee from the sun, stole babies and have freezing blades that can shatter steel. The Others weren't in Essos, they came from the Land of Alaways Winter which only Westeros is connected to.
The legends of Essos mentions a man fighting the "darkness" just like people have visions of the PtwP fighting the "dark", therefore the Essosis legends are based on visions of the Last Hero fighting the Others in Westeros.

 

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I appreciate the quote and the back up on the dark.  I reckon it fits, but I wish it was closer.  I wish a lot of things about Melisandre.  

Melisandre was with Stannis when he saw the others in between acok and asos. I think she could see it too? And be see, I mean "shapes"

Quote

"You saw it, sire?" It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing.

"With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it."

"And have," said Melisandre.

 

[Hugorfonics]

The old gods play it loose, Vegas style. They will have their hero eventually. It's a numbers game

Quote

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

(This is supposed to dissuade us into thinking Jon and Arya are not the one who can bring balance to the force, but I say, Jon and Arya like a good gamble)

Too many numbers for Azor Ahai. The old gods are, well, old. But this is an even older religion and Im not sure they had numbers back then. That may be why they settled on a, as in, a zor ahai.

They lost track of their hero, after he died or whatever, and specific rules were drafted. This is still a long time ago so they didn't write anything down but they definitely counted this time. Sugar Spice and Everything Nice. Also when the red star bleeds and yada yada yada the dead spouse would probably forgive if she could. Only thing, too many dead spouses. It's like a reunion at Rohanne Webbers house.

Dany and Jon have basked under the red star often enough, but Tyrion and Victarion aren't necessarily under a yellow one. In fact the more you look into it every Cat, Reek and Davos start to show signs of sunburn. I think they should have planned for a larger event, it's a shame they probably couldn't count past one.

 

The Prince isn't necessarily a religion but a belief in the spiritual. Like something from the 60s. It's when teenagers and young adults who never worked got together and tried to hotbox the dragonpit. In between they talked about the past the future, their dreams and what it all meant in this crazy world we call ours, the Targaryens.

Other topics included why was Aegon Davinci coding with the number three? And where did the dragons go again, cigarettes? The dragon talk gained momentum pretty quickly then, although the number three always stuck around, maybe because in Valyrian it's a fun word to say. Eventually the talks and feel goods were dropped and the full spirit went from quirky new age religion to the Prince and how he promised he'd be back.

If not cheerleading they were playing ball, Aerion was a helluva short stop. If Aerys went for two? But the best, the one and only, Most Valuable Prince, Dany. Now all she has to do is figure out what to do with these extra numbers. Too many numbers. It's a shame Viserys taught her how to count past one.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Melisandre was with Stannis when he saw the others in between acok and asos. I think she could see it too? And be see, I mean "shapes"

 

I totally want to say they're weird, but I know this is evidence.  It's such lame evidence.  If she was worth anything she would just see them, you know? 

[Hugorfonics]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I totally want to say they're weird, but I know this is evidence.  It's such lame evidence.  If she was worth anything she would just see them, you know? 

Not many weirder then them. It was enough evidence though, describing the prologue I thought was pretty cool.

But for sure! Maybe she can only see the living? I mean The Ghost (with flowers in her hair lol) sees Cat, but she's not really dead more like undead. Which I guess these cats are too but they're more like " brains brains" instead of "gurgle gurgle".

It's also possible they got some defensive system about them, although I guess not because she saw the fists of first... Well, Stannis did. Maybe she doesn't know em like that and can't see like even since meeting Jon that's all she can think about, although again I guess not cuz she crossed the world to not just put a vain king on an uncomfortable chair. 

My favorite is when she looks at Bran and shudders and thinks is that the enemy. So weird!

 

[sweetsunray]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:58 PM, Alester Florent said:

Mel does claim that the Prince prophecy was made five thousand years ago, and while she associates it with Azor Ahai she deals with both prophecies together, rather than saying TPWWP is nonsense, or that it's just a knockoff of the AA original. She treats it seriously. So it does seem that TPWWP is a legitimate ancient prophecy. (Which is not to say that "the dragon must have three heads" is, of course).

Prophecies are always pretty vague and especially when they're old they'll reflect the cultural values of the people who have maintained them at least as much as any underlying reality. The idea of a future messiah-type who will emerge to save the world in the case of crisis could have stemmed from an initial truth and then diverged along cultural grounds, or just emerged autochthonously in different communities and later been taken to refer to the same thing by those who take prophecy seriously.

It's worth throwing the third "prophesied saviour" in the mix as well, I think: the Stallion Who Mounts the World. Given how ridiculous Dothraki culture is, it's not hard to see TSWMTW as the Dothraki version of AA/TPWWP filtered through several thousand years of violence and idiocy.

For what it's worth, and assuming that the prophecies have any value at all (which in this world we might as well) I suspect they all refer to the same event and probably to the same person. Either it's a single prophecy from antiquity that's assumed different forms through cultural transmission, or it's different prophets from different cultures seeing roughly the same thing (a hero standing against the darkness) and interpreting that according to their own cultural traditions. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the same person in each case, as the prophets might have wrongly identified the "hero" in each of their visions, and/or edited out the complicating factors in the retellings, and assumed it's singular when in fact it's a group.

But I think as the prophecies are understood IC, which is what's really important, it's the same person.

Not only does Mel equate the two, maester Aemon does too, when she mentions it (the chapter where he asks Sam to describe Lightbringer to him) and on their way to Oldtown.

In further support of your post

If the name of the PtwP was translated into Valyrian it probably says The Dragon that was Promised. Makes no sense otherwise for Aemon to say the error was in the translation, that "dragon" is a gender neutral word.

Aemon also informs us that for "modern" timeline times indirectly that tPtwP wasn't the woods witch as source, but Aerys I. He was the bookish king who refused to bed his wife, refused to have an heir, son of Daeron the Good and brother to Maekar. He found old books and believed that one day "the dragons would be back". Combine that belief with old books talking about prophecies and you end up with tPtwP and Aeor Ahai reborn. Aemon also informs us that ALL his brothers had dragon dreams. 

It's important to recognize that tPtwP name in Valyrian would be "tDtwP", because it reminds us that Old Valyria had no kings, no princes, no emperors... They had dragons and dragonlords. While Valyrian may have a loan word for prince or princess, this is a tidbit of Old Valyria that should raise eyebrows. It's not as if those dragonlords would not have lusted for power, did not have their civil wars or struggles for which family got to be on top for thousands of years.

The world book tells us a curious tale of an alleged prophecy that seems to have been believed by Old Valyria, and it basically comes down to "don't deal with Lannisters of Westeros, they're going to be our downfall". In Old valyria you had red priests who saw stuff in fires just as well and then there were their blood mages. And if propheseers of Asshai can get a glimpse of the future 6000 years ahead to write down the Azor Ahai prophecy, then some could have had a glimpse of Lannisters being the downfall of a Valyrian king: Jaime all in gold and his lion helmet killing a mad ungroomed king with Valyrian features (hair and eyes) and 19 dragons skulls, a throne and a crown, in an inferior architecture (in comparison to Old Valyria). It's not just the horror of seeing a Lannister killing one of their descendants, but the complete picture that would be horrific to them: nothing but dead dragons, the skulls getting smaller and smaller, the miserable appearance of Aerys II, inferior architecture. The whole picture of this showed a decline and loss of knowledge, culture, dragons. So, imo the murder of Aerys II by Jaime was foreseen and became the prophecy that the gold of Castamere Rock would be the ruin of Old Valyria. And they did not just avoid having to do business with the Lannisters, it scared them enough to not have kings in Old Valyria imho.

Anyhow my point is that we know there was a seeming unrelated prophecy known in Old Valyria (that could have foreseen Jaime killing Aerys II) that they as a society attempted to avoid: by not directly trading with Lannisters, not conquering Westeros, not enslaving Westerosi, not having kings or emperors.

And then when you look at the reason for their massive enslavement of people across Essos, then this also seems prophecy suspect: they needed slaves foremostly for their mines, for iron. And what did they do with all that iron: a near industrial level making of Valyrian Steel. It's like they chased making a Lightbringer of their own. Sure, they turned it into a business and profit, and it's the cream of the crop steel. But it still comes down to extraordinary efforts to enslave a whole continent nearly to churn people to risk their lives to dig beneath the 14 and facing wyrms, etc for iron, which they needed to conquer more people to dig up more.

There also should not be any doubt that Valyrians often interacted with Asshai, and thus Old Valyria for sure knew of the Azor Ahai prophecy, and seemed to believe that they were the chosen people from whom a heroic figure would be born with a legendary magical sword, a dragon who would save the world. Except they were destroying everyone else's life for this.

 

 

[Alester Florent]

Something funny that I realised last night is that Azor Ahai doesn't seem like an Asshai name. We have a limited sample size here, but the two Asshai characters we know of are called Melisandre/Melony, and Quaithe. That may not mean much on its own, but the two characters we know of from Sarnor are called Huzhor Amai and Mazor Alexi. This looks a lot more like the kind of naming system that would throw up an "Azor Ahai".

We know GRRM isn't exactly a linguist, and this may initially have been an oversight, but Sarnor was introduced to the background relatively late in the day (it isn't mentioned in the novels at all, and only appeared in the World book) so if we're given two names at this stage that look culturally compatible with Azor Ahai, but who aren't from Asshai, that doesn't seem likely to me to be a coincidence.

Has anyone really looked at the other names for the "Last Hero" and which cultures they correspond to? Yin Tar seems likely to be the Yi Ti version and we know Hyrkoon is from the Patrimony to the north and west of Yi Ti. But what about Neferion? Could be Valyrian? And Eldric Shadowchaser could be an Andal or even FM name.

I don't really know what the clues are pointing to but I don't think it's nothing.

On the other hand, Asshai itself has an obvious similarity to the name of its favourite hero, which makes me wonder if Asshai itself was named after the hero in some capacity, and perhaps being founded after the Long Night for some purpose, rather than being his ancestral homeland.

I dunno. Maybe it's "Great Empire of the Dawn" stuff, although I've never really bought into that.

[Daeron the Daring]

Razor Ahai.

[X-Buster]

On 3/9/2023 at 10:31 PM, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

Do you think they refer to the same individual? Or do you think the two are separate and refer to two different people?

I’d be utterly disappointed if the story ends with a single hero, Jon or Dany, saving the world and ruling. It has to be more complicated then that, right?

Azor Ahai and the prince who was promised are prophecies referring to a Targaryen who will bring the dragons back to life.  A feat which naturally make Azor Ahai a Targaryen protagonists.  The Targaryens have been waiting for their special princess for a long time.  The family wish was fulfilled when Daenerys Targaryen brought her three dragons to life.

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark will be the last two left standing towards the ending and they will fight it out.  I am on the side of Daenerys but others will side with the Starks.  I hope Daenerys and her dragons come out on top.

[GZ Bloodraven]

 

On 3/13/2023 at 2:04 AM, sweetsunray said:

It's important to recognize that tPtwP name in Valyrian would be "tDtwP", because it reminds us that Old Valyria had no kings, no princes, no emperors... They had dragons and dragonlords. While Valyrian may have a loan word for prince or princess, this is a tidbit of Old Valyria that should raise eyebrows. It's not as if those dragonlords would not have lusted for power, did not have their civil wars or struggles for which family got to be on top for thousands of years.

The prophecies are the same, the "prince that was promised" or "the dragon that was promised" phrasing is just used to give those of perceived noble birth a greater assumption that they or their descendants are the prince. Whereas Azor Ahai could be anybody.

42 minutes ago, X-Buster said:

Azor Ahai and the prince who was promised are prophecies referring to a Targaryen who will bring the dragons back to life.  A feat which naturally make Azor Ahai a Targaryen protagonists.  The Targaryens have been waiting for their special princess for a long time.  The family wish was fulfilled when Daenerys Targaryen brought her three dragons to life.

There is nothing about Azor Ahai that would suggest they are a Targaryen explicitly, although Daenerys is probably going to be the one to bring the dawn. Bran won't be standing in her way, though, the Starks and the Targaryens are both necessary for the Song of Ice and Fire.

[TheBlackSwan]

The Ghost of High Heart foretold that the Prince will be born from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella.
And the prophecy seems to be link to Valyria and its Dragonlords.
Plenty of Targaryens dreamt of the prophecy.
In some early drafts found in the at Texas A&M's Cushing Library by u/gsteff, Martin wrote "When Samarro Saan made him a gift of some old Valyrian scrolls, Maelys read that king's blood could wake dragons out of stone, so he gave his son Maenar to the fire. "
Melisandre says the prophecy is 5.000 years old, could be an exaggeration but 5.000 years ago coincide with the end of the Long Night and the rise of Valyria. So it's possible that once the Others got defeated, Valyrian started to have dragons dreams about their come back and the promised prince that would lead the fight against them. The Others being the ice of the title and the Dragonlords, the fire.
Make sense that the people who owns dragons would be link to the prophecy of waking up dragons.
 

[BalerionTheCat]

Azor Ahai is a prophecy from Yi Ti or Asshai. Some 5K years old. Who the Red Priests claim is their champion, Rh'llor's Champion. Fire and Shadow.

The Prince That Was Promised is only 1K years old according the Aemon. So it should be a different prophecy. My guess is, this prophecy comes from greenseers. A promise from the Old Gods. Ice and Fire.

I would guess the 2 are opposite. Greenseers and Red Priests competing to fulfill their prophecy. The ones who will get their champion/prince believe they will win the war to come.