Jon & Daenerys’ Flaws as Leaders

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

One question that probably should be asked is what effect Dany's emancipation of the Unsullied will have on their cohesion and discipline. The Masters were wary of selling Unsullied in small groups because if they got too much external contact they became less reliable (i.e. presumably the brainwashing started to wear off and with it their unthinking discipline).

Now, Dany's freeing the Unsullied and letting them circulate in the community is obviously the right thing to do from a humanitarian perspective, and will give them a huge morale boost - but it might also erode their discipline and cohesion in battle, which is what gives them their cutting edge over other troops. The Unsullied haven't really been tested in battle since they were freed, and if they get stuck into a really gruelling battle, start seeing their friends die (as opposed to the nameless vermin they were previously) they may no longer be so unbreakable as they were before.

While a medieval army would eat a classical hoplite phalanx for breakfast, if you even up the equipment advantage (i.e. give the Greeks access to medieval steel for their arms and armour) and substitue a Hellenistic phalanx for the classical one, the fight is likely to be a lot closer. The Hellenistic phalanx is probably a better match for the Unsullied in any event, given their training and disciplinary advantages. The phalanx still has the problem of being a much more unwieldy formation, but in theory the Unsullied's resistance to panic and other psyhcological effects might compensate for that to some extent.

After all, pretty much the most effective infantry in late medieval Europe were Swiss pike blocks, which are really quite similar to the Hellenstic phalanx in terms of form and function.

The current establishment (8,000 Unsullied, 5,000 cadets) is very large by medieval standards, and much larger than the unit numbers they were usually sold off in.

While this would provide challenges in terms of training (Grey Worm has to function as a general, rather than a company or regimental commander) it probably helps them to retain their cohesion.

[Alester Florent]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Much of the flower of Westeros’ chivalry will be dead by time the Unsullied roll up.

The armies of the Reach, Dorne and the Vale are still largely untouched, so unless something really dramatic happens before Dany rocks up, there will still be plenty of high-quality heavy cavalry to contend with. What's more, the surviving knights/cavalry from the other kingdoms can be assumed to be high-quality simply because by dint of surviving they have become veterans.

Much will depend on where Dany lands and who opposes her - and also on whether she manages to land her forces organised and intact (Aegon didn't, and you would expect the Golden Company to be better at that sort of thing).

[Corvo the Crow]

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really hope they don't just sweep everyone though, that would be stupid and bad writing.

Yes, almost as bad as mountains spitting armies 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

The armies of the Reach, Dorne and the Vale are still largely untouched, so unless something really dramatic happens before Dany rocks up, there will still be plenty of high-quality heavy cavalry to contend with. What's more, the surviving knights/cavalry from the other kingdoms can be assumed to be high-quality simply because by dint of surviving they have become veterans.

Much will depend on where Dany lands and who opposes her - and also on whether she manages to land her forces organised and intact (Aegon didn't, and you would expect the Golden Company to be better at that sort of thing).

I expect the Reach and Dorne will have taken heavy losses, as they fight each other and Euron.

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I expect the Reach and Dorne will have taken heavy losses, as they fight each other and Euron.

Maybe. But at the moment the Reach and Dorne aren't fighting. And the main Reach field army hasn't yet been engaged by Euron (which is not to say that it won't, if the Tyrells gain more control of the government following Kevan's death). If there's a big bloodbath in TWoW this may change, of course.

[Rondo]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:45 AM, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

I think we can all agree that Jon & Daenerys are the closest characters we have to the “heroes” of the story. Both are thrust into positions of leadership, and both are good intentioned. But both have major flaws that effect them.

To me, Jon’s major issue is that he doesn’t communicate his thoughts very well with the NW causing brothers to take issues with what he does. I’m not saying all his issues would’ve been solved if he just communicated better, but I think it would’ve helped him immensely.

Dany’s is harder to pin point. It’s obvious that she isn’t doing a very good job at ruling Slaver’s Bay. All 3 cities are in complete disarray since she took power. Ending slavery was the right thing to do, but she really had no plans for what comes after. She got bought off by Yunkai and slavery came back she took hostages to keep the peace and then revealed she had no intention of ever actually harming them, rendering the action meaningless and it weakened her position. To me, that shows that while she wants to do the right thing, but she doesn’t plan for or expect to have to do anything afterwards. Unless she learns a lot, and quickly, she seems like she’ll have to rule using fear of her dragons. As a tyrant.

Dany is actually doing a very good job in Slaver's Bay.  Many slaves are now free to choose because of her.  Slaves as far away as Volantis can now dream of freedom because of Dany.  Dany is a natural leader.  She was able to safely lead her small khalasar through the desert to safety.  She went from helpless to the most powerful person.  The problems at Slaver's Bay are the fault of the Harpy.  

Jon had a neat order of the night's watch handed to him and he still failed.  

[Maegor_the_Cool]

28 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Dany is actually doing a very good job in Slaver's Bay.  Many slaves are now free to choose because of her.  Slaves as far away as Volantis can now dream of freedom because of Dany.  Dany is a natural leader.  She was able to safely lead her small khalasar through the desert to safety.  She went from helpless to the most powerful person.  The problems at Slaver's Bay are the fault of the Harpy.  

Jon had a neat order of the night's watch handed to him and he still failed.  

“Neat order” that’s how I know you are full of crap or never read the books.

[SeanF]

Dany and Jon are both at their lowest points, which must be a deliberate parallel.

Dany is weak from sunstroke, diorrhea, and vomiting, and she’s confronting her worst enemies.  Jon is (seemingly) murdered.

They have both striven to do what is right, and both have apparently failed.

We can assume that this is not truly the end of their stories, but in each case, the low point of the hero’s quest.  

[Rondo]

45 minutes ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

“Neat order” that’s how I know you are full of crap or never read the books.

Jon inherited a Night's Watch that had a structure in place that was working well enough to hold an election.  That same system put him power despite his unpopularity because the crows respected the system and obeyed the system.  Jon sucked at leadership and he was also compromised because of his loyalty to Arya.  Jon was a failure.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Rondo said:

That same system put him power despite his unpopularity because the crows respected the system and obeyed the system.

It put him in power because of his popularity, that's how the voting system works, it's right there in the text. If Jon was so unpopular he wouldn't have won the election. Just because you hate the character doesn't mean the people in-universe do.

2 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jon sucked at leadership and he was also compromised because of his loyalty to Arya.

No.

2 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jon was a failure.

No.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

on had a neat order of the night's watch handed to him

Impressive that you noticed that.  Here are some details of the neat order:

Lord Commander Mormont was assassinated by his own men. 

There only about 1000 men in an order that historically had thousands of men in the past.  

Mormont tells Tyrion that more of his men are abandoning their posts and leaving the Wall.  He also notes the low quality of his officers, naming Ser Alliser Thorne and Lord Steward Bowen Marsh as examples.

Most of the castles are deserted and falling in ruins. 

The king and Small Council ignore the NW's requests for men and provide them with a few criminals from the black cells from time to time. 

Very few of new recruits can read or write or have had any weapons training. 

 

Your right, pretty neat!.......................................not

 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

36 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Impressive that you noticed that.  Here are some details of the neat order:

Lord Commander Mormont was assassinated by his own men. 

There only about 1000 men in an order that historically had thousands of men in the past.  

Mormont tells Tyrion that more of his men are abandoning their posts and leaving the Wall.  He also notes the low quality of his officers, naming Ser Alliser Thorne and Lord Steward Bowen Marsh as examples.

Most of the castles are deserted and falling in ruins. 

The king and Small Council ignore the NW's requests for men and provide them with a few criminals from the black cells from time to time. 

Very few of new recruits can read or write or have had any weapons training. 

 

Your right, pretty neat!.......................................not

 

See he doesn’t care about facts. He wants to make things up

[Alester Florent]

14 hours ago, LongRider said:

. Your right, pretty neat!.......................................not

 

Viserys Targaryen had a neat army of Dothraki handed to him and look what happened there.

[astarkchoice]

16 hours ago, Rondo said:

Jon inherited a Night's Watch that had a structure in place that was working well enough to hold an election.  That same system put him power despite his unpopularity because the crows respected the system and obeyed the system.  Jon sucked at leadership and he was also compromised because of his loyalty to Arya.  Jon was a failure.

Soo dany is an awesome ruler its just the bad harpys fault ...so she has a faction under her that dont like her rule and want her dead then

 

So what you have basicaly admitted here is they both had the same issue its just dany has better close quarters protection!!!! 

[sifth]

18 hours ago, Rondo said:

Dany is actually doing a very good job in Slaver's Bay.  Many slaves are now free to choose because of her.  Slaves as far away as Volantis can now dream of freedom because of Dany.  Dany is a natural leader.  She was able to safely lead her small khalasar through the desert to safety.  She went from helpless to the most powerful person.  The problems at Slaver's Bay are the fault of the Harpy.  

Jon had a neat order of the night's watch handed to him and he still failed.  

So the majority of the NW are not former criminals in your minds eye?

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 3/10/2023 at 1:28 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. I’m no expert, but seems to me they have been very significantly brainwashed and probably suffer some form of Stockholm Syndrome as well. I haven’t read those chapters in a very long time, but isn’t there some clues (maybe it is even spelled out) that they don’t really function like normal adults? That they don’t react like mentally healthy humans are expected to react? I’m not in any way, shape or form condoning the murder of babies, but I can’t just say they’re “baby murderers” b/c I don’t think that is a fair description even though they did kill babies.

There are a lot of things I don't like about how GRRM wrote the Unsullied. I know it's fiction and fantasy, but I can't wrap my head around the psychological side of it. They've been trained so perfectly that they have blind obedience, still enough shred of humanity to have desires and feelings, but never show signs of PTSD or depression, perfect unity, they worship a mysterious sea goddess because ???, etc. Idk, there are plenty of things in the series that should bother me more than this lol.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

There are a lot of things I don't like about how GRRM wrote the Unsullied. I know it's fiction and fantasy, but I can't wrap my head around the psychological side of it. They've been trained so perfectly that they have blind obedience, still enough shred of humanity to have desires and feelings, but never show signs of PTSD or depression, perfect unity, they worship a mysterious sea goddess because ???, etc. Idk, there are plenty of things in the series that should bother me more than this lol.

The Unsullied are the parallel to Arya to me.  Child soldiers.  The Unsullied have always pulled at my heart strings because I'm a big sap, dammit.  This is the last of them.  For all the horror and glory there will never be any more.  Their goddess is just exactly like Needle.  Something they created in desperation--the shred of private thought they were permitted while maintaining their persona of No One.  I take great joy in the tiniest breaking from the pack one or two of them experience--learning words, taking a separate mission, arguing.  It's wonderful.  To Dany's credit The Unsullied love her, they don't worship her.  That says a lot for our little queen.  Arya needs something like this.  

[LongRider]

19 hours ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

See he doesn’t care about facts. He wants to make things up

I know that of course but wanted to write this anyway.    

[Darth Sidious]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:45 AM, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

I think we can all agree that Jon & Daenerys are the closest characters we have to the “heroes” of the story. Both are thrust into positions of leadership, and both are good intentioned. But both have major flaws that effect them.

To me, Jon’s major issue is that he doesn’t communicate his thoughts very well with the NW causing brothers to take issues with what he does. I’m not saying all his issues would’ve been solved if he just communicated better, but I think it would’ve helped him immensely.

Dany’s is harder to pin point. It’s obvious that she isn’t doing a very good job at ruling Slaver’s Bay. All 3 cities are in complete disarray since she took power. Ending slavery was the right thing to do, but she really had no plans for what comes after. She got bought off by Yunkai and slavery came back she took hostages to keep the peace and then revealed she had no intention of ever actually harming them, rendering the action meaningless and it weakened her position. To me, that shows that while she wants to do the right thing, but she doesn’t plan for or expect to have to do anything afterwards. Unless she learns a lot, and quickly, she seems like she’ll have to rule using fear of her dragons. As a tyrant.

Daenerys is a hero. Jon is not.  
 

Jon’s leadership brought the Order to its lowest point. So they fight a hard-fought battle with Mance and the Wildlings. The human toll was high. The Wildlings end up getting what they want anyway.  Entry. Now, with more mouths to feed, mostly useless for defense. Jon then gets the NW involved in Ramsay and Roose’s business. He sends a sworn brother of the watch to conduct an illegal operation.  He gathers the Wildlings to attack the Boltons. Good thing Bowen took him out.

Daenerys has won every battle by being smart and brave. She won with minimal casualties to her people. She has dealt a severe blow to the evil slave trade. Liberation of millions of slaves is a complicated process because the evil slave masters have been entrenched for thousands of years. It will take time as well as stronger measures. No other leader has tried anything this difficult but yet it must be done. Slavery must end even if it requires war to accomplish. And that is coming. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

17 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Daenerys is a hero. Jon is not.  
 

Jon’s leadership brought the Order to its lowest point. So they fight a hard-fought battle with Mance and the Wildlings. The human toll was high. The Wildlings end up getting what they want anyway.  Entry. Now, with more mouths to feed, mostly useless for defense. Jon then gets the NW involved in Ramsay and Roose’s business. He sends a sworn brother of the watch to conduct an illegal operation.  He gathers the Wildlings to attack the Boltons. Good thing Bowen took him out.

Daenerys has won every battle by being smart and brave. She won with minimal casualties to her people. She has dealt a severe blow to the evil slave trade. Liberation of millions of slaves is a complicated process because the evil slave masters have been entrenched for thousands of years. It will take time as well as stronger measures. No other leader has tried anything this difficult but yet it must be done. Slavery must end even if it requires war to accomplish. And that is coming. 

See you said something actually intelligent regarding Daenerys. It will take time to completely eradicate the slave trade. Years. Years she won’t spend on there, as she’ll abandon them to go to Westeros.

in regards to what you said about Jon. You are utterly wrong. You aren’t even giving points, you are just blatantly lying so there is nothing to argue.