Jon & Daenerys’ Flaws as Leaders

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it could have an emotional component as well because if it was just feel no pain it would be like leprosy and they wouldn't actually be that effective because they wouldn't recognise when they were injured so could bleed to death more easily etc. Unless the drug is mind control though I think they still would have a choice in the most basic sense.

I really doubt GRRM has given that much thought into it.

[SeanF]

46 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sorry but no, this is bordering on being hypocritical. Unlike the slaves who have become a part of this way later on, they grew up in an environment where this is considered business as usual, by people who were also raised in the same for generation upon generation. 

 

I'm talking about exactly this. Some are born slaves, so they aren't that different from the masters in this regard but many of them have known an other life, they know there are different ways.

 

By not punisihing them, she treats them as (former) property same way as the slave girl who was NOT raped according to Dany. 

Actually it is also quite hypocritical considering there was such a ruckus about Tyrion and the half-dead sex slave but no one bats an eye when it is Daenerys who turns a blind eye to another sex slave's suffering.

There is no blind eye.  The ex-master has to pay compensation.  But he is spared castration.

[Craving Peaches]

Are the Unsullied still being given the Wine of Courage?

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Are the Unsullied still being given the Wine of Courage?

No.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

No.

Where does it say this? I'm not trying to be provocative I'd just like to know because I looked on A Search of Ice and Fire but all I couldn't find any mention of the Unsullied stopping taking it.

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh that's horrible. It's draining their ability to feel. Good god. I must have somehow overlooked this while reading. However, and I know I'm being nitpicky but it's important for me to know: is this meaning they don't realise the effect their actions will have, or they do realise but don't feel anything?

It's easy to forget the smaller things when you have a mountain of worse atop it.  It means they are conditioned, mutilated, tortured, drugged and hypnotized into becoming the Manchurian candidates of Astapor, the child soldiers of Essos, the single minded army of Kraznys.  They have no thoughts of their own.  They do as they are told.  Their house words would be Unthinking, Unfeeling, Unblinking

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where does it say this? I'm not trying to be provocative I'd just like to know because I looked on A Search of Ice and Fire but all I couldn't find any mention of the Unsullied stopping taking it.

I think it's safe to assume that as part of Dany's freed men army they simply quit taking it on their own.  Just a guess. 

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it's safe to assume that as part of Dany's freed men army they simply quit taking it on their own.  Just a guess. 

It also says it was produced in Astapor which obviously isn't possible anymore.

[Corvo the Crow]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It also says it was produced in Astapor which obviously isn't possible anymore.

I think Unsullied knew how to make it.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

I think Unsullied knew how to make it.

Possibly. Though I am not sure if they would continue to take it if they had a choice. We can see from a few examples that they are keen to connect with others more. On the other hand if they thought it was necessary for their fighting prowess they might continue to take it.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Possibly. Though I am not sure if they would continue to take it if they had a choice. We can see from a few examples that they are keen to connect with others more. On the other hand if they thought it was necessary for their fighting prowess they might continue to take it.

They lack physical prowess, their effectiveness boils down to two things, their discipline and not feeling pain in battle.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They lack physical prowess, their effectiveness boils down to two things, their discipline and not feeling pain in battle.

True.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where does it say this? I'm not trying to be provocative I'd just like to know because I looked on A Search of Ice and Fire but all I couldn't find any mention of the Unsullied stopping taking it.

It’s part of the know-how of Astapor.  The people who made it are dead.

[Alester Florent]

17 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They lack physical prowess, their effectiveness boils down to two things, their discipline and not feeling pain in battle.

Physical prowess and combat prowess aren't the same. They lack strength - but that doesn't mean they're not well-trained with the weapons they're using. Admittedly from what we know of their training regimen it looks more like a psychological indoctrination programme for child soldiers than actual combat training, but presumably there must be combat training as well. I think it's fair to assume they are as well-trained as a Westerosi knight, or a professional mercenary (possibly better than most mercs). They lose a bit of edge due to lost muscle mass versus the knight, but (supposedly) make up for that in cohesion and discipline (not feeling pain is more an aspect of this than a discrete factor, I think).

There has been speculation on these boards in the past, mind, that the Unsullied are, while effective soldiers by Essosi standards, a paper tiger by Westerosi standards, based on analysis of tactics, structure, equipment, etc. At the very least we can say that the organisational and fighting system used by the Unsullied is completely different to that of the Westerosi and that this will present the Unsullied with a unique challenge should they get there... but that may well apply the other way round too.

The obvious deficiency the Unsullied have is a lack of cavalry, so they are reliant on other, potentially less reliable, mercenary companies to cover their flanks in open battle. Of course this is less of a handicap if the Unsullied genuinely don't suffer from fear in the same way, because flank and rear attacks, while disruptive, will not be as devastating to their formation as it would conventional soldiers equipped the same way. This may be how they defeated the Dothraki at Qohor, blunting the usual impact of the Dothraki charges and wearing them down through attrition, albeit at the cost of horrendous casualties. But the Dothraki are light cavalry, and Westerosi knights are going to be less vulnerable at close quarters.

The obvious other counterpoint is dragons, which on the open field on a good day make all other troop types largely redundant. So long as the Unsullied have dragons in support and their opponents don't, we can be pretty confident they'll be on the winning side.

[Corvo the Crow]

14 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Physical prowess and combat prowess aren't the same. They lack strength - but that doesn't mean they're not well-trained with the weapons they're using. Admittedly from what we know of their training regimen it looks more like a psychological indoctrination programme for child soldiers than actual combat training, but presumably there must be combat training as well. I think it's fair to assume they are as well-trained as a Westerosi knight, or a professional mercenary (possibly better than most mercs). They lose a bit of edge due to lost muscle mass versus the knight, but (supposedly) make up for that in cohesion and discipline (not feeling pain is more an aspect of this than a discrete factor, I think).

There has been speculation on these boards in the past, mind, that the Unsullied are, while effective soldiers by Essosi standards, a paper tiger by Westerosi standards, based on analysis of tactics, structure, equipment, etc. At the very least we can say that the organisational and fighting system used by the Unsullied is completely different to that of the Westerosi and that this will present the Unsullied with a unique challenge should they get there... but that may well apply the other way round too.

The obvious deficiency the Unsullied have is a lack of cavalry, so they are reliant on other, potentially less reliable, mercenary companies to cover their flanks in open battle. Of course this is less of a handicap if the Unsullied genuinely don't suffer from fear in the same way, because flank and rear attacks, while disruptive, will not be as devastating to their formation as it would conventional soldiers equipped the same way. This may be how they defeated the Dothraki at Qohor, blunting the usual impact of the Dothraki charges and wearing them down through attrition, albeit at the cost of horrendous casualties. But the Dothraki are light cavalry, and Westerosi knights are going to be less vulnerable at close quarters.

The obvious other counterpoint is dragons, which on the open field on a good day make all other troop types largely redundant. So long as the Unsullied have dragons in support and their opponents don't, we can be pretty confident they'll be on the winning side.

Dothraki didn’t even try to flank them. Westerosi are medieval pikemen/spearmen (GRRM treats them  as if same but differnce is as huge as Ryk’s Longspear and Mance’s short - by Tormund standards- sword. Unsullied are what? Phalanx? When push comes to Shove and I mean it literally, whem their two formations face and start pushing eachoter, how well will soft plump eunuchs do?

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

When push comes to Shove and I mean it literally, whem their two formations face and start pushing eachoter, how well will soft plump eunuchs do?

Realistically eunuch hoplites would get thrashed by late medieval infantry and cavalry but I think because of the story that will not happen.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Realistically eunuch hoplites would get thrashed by late medieval infantry and cavalry but I think because of the story that will not happen.

Yes, they will have plot armor thicker than Varys.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes, they will have plot armor thicker than Varys.

I really hope they don't just sweep everyone though, that would be stupid and bad writing.

[Alester Florent]

One question that probably should be asked is what effect Dany's emancipation of the Unsullied will have on their cohesion and discipline. The Masters were wary of selling Unsullied in small groups because if they got too much external contact they became less reliable (i.e. presumably the brainwashing started to wear off and with it their unthinking discipline).

Now, Dany's freeing the Unsullied and letting them circulate in the community is obviously the right thing to do from a humanitarian perspective, and will give them a huge morale boost - but it might also erode their discipline and cohesion in battle, which is what gives them their cutting edge over other troops. The Unsullied haven't really been tested in battle since they were freed, and if they get stuck into a really gruelling battle, start seeing their friends die (as opposed to the nameless vermin they were previously) they may no longer be so unbreakable as they were before.

While a medieval army would eat a classical hoplite phalanx for breakfast, if you even up the equipment advantage (i.e. give the Greeks access to medieval steel for their arms and armour) and substitue a Hellenistic phalanx for the classical one, the fight is likely to be a lot closer. The Hellenistic phalanx is probably a better match for the Unsullied in any event, given their training and disciplinary advantages. The phalanx still has the problem of being a much more unwieldy formation, but in theory the Unsullied's resistance to panic and other psyhcological effects might compensate for that to some extent.

After all, pretty much the most effective infantry in late medieval Europe were Swiss pike blocks, which are really quite similar to the Hellenstic phalanx in terms of form and function.

[SeanF]

Much of the flower of Westeros’ chivalry will be dead by time the Unsullied roll up.