Jonan the Barbarian and Red Sansa

[Corvo the Crow]

Firstly, the name: the thread was supposed to be opened a month ago and back then there was a thread with place names, and I've pointed out several place names from Conan, so i was just in reference of that, not that Jon and Sansa has anything to with Conan and Red Sonja, at least I'm not aware of such things.

This thread is a collection of stuff I've noticed throughout the years regarding the possibility of JonSa happening. A disclaimer here, I believe JonSa will happen, but I'm not a JonSa shipper, my preference is JonVal and in my signature you can also find a thread on that, suggesting that Jon may have already married Val.

 

 

We'll start with Sansa. What kind of man does Sansa want?

Sansa's first crush, at least as far as we know...

 

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"Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney."

 

is Waymar Royce and he looks like this

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Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. Ser Waymar had been a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch for less than half a year, but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned.

Slender, graceful, grey eyed. Don't know about you but this Waymar fellow reminds me of someone, someone who we get to know in the very next chapter, described with the very same words.

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"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

 

Sansa wants a hero from the songs she likes so much, but unfortunately there are none in real life and life isn't a song.

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 Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. "Life is not a song, sweetling," he'd told her. "You may learn that one day to your sorrow." In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound's voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. "Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants."

 

Or, perhaps there are some heroes, for whom songs can be made? Or may be whose very life could be a Song, of Ice and Fire?

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The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw.

By the time a suitable chopping block was found, Lord Janos had retreated into the winch cage, but Iron Emmett went in after him and dragged him out. "No," Slynt cried, as Emmett half-shoved and halfpulled him across the yard. "Unhand me … you cannot … when Tywin Lannister hears of this, you will all rue—"

Emmett kicked his legs out from under him. Dolorous Edd planted a foot on his back to keep him on his knees as Emmett shoved the block beneath his head. "This will go easier if you stay still," Jon Snow promised him. "Move to avoid the cut, and you will still die, but your dying will be uglier. Stretch out your neck, my lord." The pale morning sunlight ran up and down his blade as Jon clasped the hilt of the bastard sword with both hands and raised it high. "If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them," he said, expecting one last curse.

Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. "Please, my lord. Mercy. I'll … I'll go, I will, I …"

No, thought Jon. You closed that door. Longclaw descended.

"Can I have his boots?" asked Owen the Oaf, as Janos Slynt's head went rolling across the muddy ground. "They're almost new, those boots. Lined with fur."

 

Notice also, that both executions were done with Valyrian swords.

Who does she think kissed him, despite it not happening?

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The cousins took Sansa into their company as if they had known her all their lives. They spent long afternoons doing needlework and talking over lemon cakes and honeyed wine, played at tiles of an evening, sang together in the castle sept . . . and often one or two of them would be chosen to share Margaery's bed, where they would whisper half the night away. Alla had a lovely voice, and when coaxed would play the woodharp and sing songs of chivalry and lost loves. Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

The sad old Hound. Funnily enough, an old hound does kiss her later on, after she escapes 

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She stayed outside for a long time. When at last she sought her own bed, wet and chilled, only the dim glow of a peat fire lit the darkened hall. There was no sound from above. The young singer sat in a corner, playing a slow song to himself. One of her aunt's maids was kissing a knight in Lord Petyr's chair, their hands busy beneath each other's clothing. Several men had drunk themselves to sleep, and one was in the privy, being noisily sick. Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

 

The hound is a Stark character in his coloring, grey eyes and dark hair but these two are seen in many other characters and it is not them alone that makes him a stand in for a Stark, it is the colors he display

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Clustered around the doors of the sept, in front of the raised marble pulpit, were a knot of knights and high lords. Joffrey was prominent among them, his raiment all crimson, silk and satin patterned with prancing stags and roaring lions, a gold crown on his head. His queen mother stood beside him in a black mourning gown slashed with crimson, a veil of black diamonds in her hair. Arya recognized the Hound, wearing a snowy white cloak over his dark grey armor, with four of the Kingsguard around him. She saw Varys the eunuch gliding among the lords in soft slippers and a patterned damask robe, and she thought the short man with the silvery cape and pointed beard might be the one who had once fought a duel for Mother.

 

Grey and white, colors of Starks and not just any white, but a snowy white one, a cloak that she keeps and which we'll get back to later on

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I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

 

Of all the people she can imagine as kissing her, it is a Stark charcter she imagines as kissing her, the Hound and he isn't an ordinary Stark stand in, he's a stand in for Jon: He is one of the several burned men(another one, Timmett who is literally from the clan called as such, is also a Jon stand in) and has a scar near one of his eyes, just like Jon who is also a burned man (his hand) and has a scar near one eye (talon marks of Orell's bird)

 

What does she dream of about her marriage?

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Sometimes she would whisper his name into her pillow just to hear the sound of it. "Willas, Willas, Willas." Willas was as good a name as Loras, she supposed. They even sounded the same, a little. What did it matter about his leg? Willas would be Lord of Highgarden and she would be his lady.

She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

 

Sons to hate Lannisters. Their names are also important, Eddard after her father, and Brandon and Rickon after her brothers. They look like her brothers and sometimes there's even a girl looking like Arya. We'll also get back to this dream later on 

Perhaps not relevant or at least I can't connect it, but it reminds me very much of this ancestor of hers

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After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

 

 

 

 

Now that we've looked at what Sansa wants and dreams of, let's take a look at Jon for a while

 

Jon's first love intererst, Ygritte, considered a great beauty by the wildlings, but only because of her red hair she isn't too much of a beauty truth be told

 

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The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky. Lucky it might be, and red it certainly was, but Ygritte's hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons.

At a lord's court the girl would never have been considered anything but common, he knew. She had a round peasant face, a pug nose, and slightly crooked teeth, and her eyes were too far apart. Jon had noticed all that the first time he'd seen her, when his dirk had been at her throat. Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn't seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling . . . well, that stirred some things as well.

...

"I know I want you," he heard himself say, all his vows and all his honor forgotten. She stood before him naked as her name day, and he was as hard as the rock around them. He had been in her half a hundred times by now, but always beneath the furs, with others all around them. He had never seen how beautiful she was. Her legs were skinny but well muscled, the hair at the juncture of her thighs a brighter red than that on her head. Does that make it even luckier? He pulled her close. "I love the smell of you," he said. "I love your red hair. I love your mouth, and the way you kiss me. I love your smile. I love your teats." He kissed them, one and then the other. "I love your skinny legs, and what's between them." He knelt to kiss her there, lightly on her mound at first, but Ygritte moved her legs apart a little, and he saw the pink inside and kissed that as well, and tasted her. She gave a little gasp. "If you love me all so much, why are you still dressed?" she whispered. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. Noth—oh. Oh. OHHH."

 

Red hair not brushed and is a mess, which Jon doesn't like.

Now I think I don't even need to add quotes for this next question, who has blue eyes, red( Auburn) hair ,

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Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north. "What am I doing?" she echoed, puzzled. "How can you ask that? What do you imagine I'm doing? I am taking care of your brother. I am taking care of Bran."

  brushes it

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Sansa already looked her best. She had brushed out her long auburn hair until it shone, and picked her nicest blue silks. She had been looking forward to today for more than a week. It was a great honor to ride with the queen, and besides, Prince Joffrey might be there. Her betrothed. Just thinking it made her feel a strange fluttering inside, even though they were not to marry for years and years. Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him. He was all she ever dreamt her prince should be, tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold. She treasured every chance to spend time with him, few as they were. The only thing that scared her about today was Arya. Arya had a way of ruining everything. You never knew what she would do. "I'll tell her," Sansa said uncertainly, "but she'll dress the way she always does." She hoped it wouldn't be too embarrassing. "May I be excused?"

 

smells good 

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Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

and likes to sing?

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Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

I think we know of such a character. Not relevant but funny that he thinks of his siblings in the order of succession, Robb as the eldest heir, tha Bran, second son, Rickon, third son, Sansa the older of the two girls and at last, Arya. And of all his siblings, it is after thinking of Sansa that he thinks of the words of Ygritte, it is Sansa she associates with her words, same as he associates Robb with Maester Aemon's words from the speech he got after he tried to leave to join Robb.

 

 

Perhaps this next bit is relevant why Jon thinks them in the order of Succession:

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"Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf's leavings, but as he never touched you . . . How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?"

The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now. "I . . . can scarcely wait to meet him, my lady. But he is still a child, is he not?"

"He is eight. And not robust. But such a good boy, so bright and clever. He will be a great man, Alayne. The seed is strong, my lord husband said before he died. His last words. The gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying. I see no reason why you should not be wed as soon as we know that your Lannister husband is dead. A secret wedding, to be sure. The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting. The ravens should bring us the word from King's Landing once the Imp's head rolls. You and Robert can be wed the next day, won't that be joyous? It will be good for him to have a little companion. He played with Vardis Egen's boy when we first returned to the Eyrie, and my steward's sons as well, but they were much too rough and I had no choice but to send them away. Do you read well, Alayne?"

  

Sansa Thinks no one will ever marry her for love, everyone is out to marry her claims.  

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"How can I lose men I do not have? I had hoped to bestow Winterfell on a northman, you may recall. A son of Eddard Stark. He threw my offer in my face." Stannis Baratheon with a grievance was like a mastiff with a bone; he gnawed it down to splinters.

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

 

All of you did not seem to include Lady Melisandre. The king's red shadow. Stannis called to Devan for more lemon water. When his cup was filled the king drank, and said, "Horpe and Massey aspire to your father's seat. Massey wants the wildling princess too. He once served my brother Robert as squire and acquired his appetite for female flesh. Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing. Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?"

Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

"I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. "You could bring the north to me. Your father's bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North."

Jon has rejected Winterfell on at least two seperate occasions. 

 

Jon being jealous

 

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"Joffrey likes your sister," Jeyne whispered, proud as if she had something to do with it. She was the daughter of Winterfell's steward and Sansa's dearest friend. "He told her she was very beautiful."

"He's going to marry her," little Beth said dreamily, hugging herself. "Then Sansa will be queen of all the realm."

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment. "Beth, you shouldn't make up stories," Sansa corrected the younger girl, gently stroking her hair to take the harshness out of her words. She looked at Arya. "What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He's very gallant, don't you think?"

"Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

Poor Jon, he is jealous because he's a bastard and won't be marrying blushing redheads to make them queen of all the realm... but what if he wasn't a bastard and was the crown prince?

 

What does Jon dream of when thinking of a marriage?

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Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms … though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder’s queen, but still …

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

A son, who he'd name Robb. Remember Sansa's dream? She dreamed of sons Eddard, Brandon, Rickon and a daughter Arya and Jon dreams of a son Robb. Their dreams complete each other.

 

Having looked at both Jon and Sansa specifically, let's take a look at few other things

Starting with the snowy white cloak we said we'd return to, the cloak that Sansa kept.

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Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

 

White wool stained by blood and fire. Remember the family motto of Targaryens? Fire and Blood. Interestingly, whether intentional or not I don't know, but the words are in reverse order, like a bastard would carrying his family arms in reverse coloring.

 

From AWOIAF which is filled with hints, parallels and foreshadowing, we know that a previous Sansa Stark, heir(eldest daughter with no brothers) of a previous Rickon(son of Cregan the Old Man of the North) that married to a half-uncle, Jonnel one-eye Stark(son of Cregan and Lynara Stark) and that our Sansa is also the heir of a Rickon and has a half relation that is also named Jon and "one eyed" in the form of her supposed half-brother Jon who's got a scar from Orell's eagle...

 

Jon stole his first redhead, Ygritte, from the claws of a predatory bird in the birds nest atop a mountain. Sansa, another redhead is(well, was) also in the nest of a predatory bird, a falcon, atop a mountain, the Eyrie.  IT gets even more interesting, both of these mountains are part of Valleys, Vale of Arryn and the Skirling Pass, and Skirling means a little trout or salmon. Trout, the sigil of the Tullys where Sansa is descended from on her mother's side.

skirling - Wiktionary

 

[KingStoneheart]

You’ve went very in depth and I like it. I too am not a JonSa shipper but all of this points to it and I feel that there’s that dislike between the pair where Sansa barely recognises Jon as a sibling that it wouldn’t be too weird I guess.

We’ve also got that in the very first draft from GRRM, he wanted Jon and Arya to end up together, so makes reasonable sense to swap that storyline over to Sansa

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, KingStoneheart said:

You’ve went very in depth and I like it. I too am not a JonSa shipper but all of this points to it and I feel that there’s that dislike between the pair where Sansa barely recognises Jon as a sibling that it wouldn’t be too weird I guess.

We’ve also got that in the very first draft from GRRM, he wanted Jon and Arya to end up together, so makes reasonable sense to swap that storyline over to Sansa

Yes I forgot to add that bit, along with a few other things. This thread has been hanging above my head for over a month now along with another one so I wanted to post it and be done with it.

 

Jon-Arya will never happen because the draft had a five year gap which the books lack. Sansa took Arya's place, even getting married to Tyrion, who was going to form a love triangle with Jon and Arya.

[KingStoneheart]

Absolutely, Arya-Jon would be so weird based on the brother-sister relationship that they have. Jon and Sansa are not close whatsoever

[Craving Peaches]

I'm warming up to the idea. But I still think Jon-Satin is the best pairing.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm warming up to the idea. But I still think Jon-Satin is the best pairing.

Well, I'll let you know Jon-Satin is still JonSa! HAR!

[Nevets]

While I can possibly see Sansa having a romantic interest in Jon, I have a difficult time seeing the reverse.  Sansa just doesn't seem Jon's type.  He seems more into Arya types.  I have a much easier time seeing him interested in someone like Wylla Manderly or Meera Reed than Sansa 

I'm not sure who I pair Sansa with.  Sandor has too many issues.  Tyrion might be OK if he ever gets his head out of his ass and works at becoming a decent person again.  But not right now.  Maybe a teenager like Trystane Martell or Martyn Lannister.  Sansa/Martyn could unify two antagonists and it's looking like Martyn may end up as head of House Lannister.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, Nevets said:

While I can possibly see Sansa having a romantic interest in Jon, I have a difficult time seeing the reverse.  Sansa just doesn't seem Jon's type.  He seems more into Arya types.  I have a much easier time seeing him interested in someone like Wylla Manderly or Meera Reed than Sansa 

I'm not sure who I pair Sansa with.  Sandor has too many issues.  Tyrion might be OK if he ever gets his head out of his ass and works at becoming a decent person again.  But not right now.  Maybe a teenager like Trystane Martell or Martyn Lannister.  Sansa/Martyn could unify two antagonists and it's looking like Martyn may end up as head of House Lannister.

Arya has tangled hair, Jon doesn't like Ygritte's tangled hair. Ygritte has red hair, Jon likes Ygritte's red hair. Arya doesn't have red hair while Sansa, as an auburn, has red hair. I don't know about others, but I find hair to be an important part of a woman's beauty.

Also I dread to think that the things that Jon likes in Ygritte's look could be due to Catelyn. Next up: Does Jon have oedipus complex? Stay tuned to Crow News Radio!

 

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Arya has tangled hair, Jon doesn't like Ygritte's tangled hair. Ygritte has red hair, Jon likes Ygritte's red hair. Arya doesn't have red hair while Sansa, as an auburn, has red hair. I don't know about others, but I find hair to be an important part of a woman's beauty.

Also I dread to think that the things that Jon likes in Ygritte's look could be due to Catelyn. Next up: Does Jon have oedipus complex? Stay tuned to Crow News Radio!

 

I was thinking more along the lines of personality; interests, patterns of behavior, that sort of thing.  He seems much more into the defiant, rule-breaking, hellion sort, and that's not Sansa.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

I was thinking more along the lines of personality; interests, patterns of behavior, that sort of thing.  He seems much more into the defiant, rule-breaking, hellion sort, and that's not Sansa.

She may change though, she's already changed a lot.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I'll begin this with a PSA. I'm not a freak, I promise..  I'm not a feral Jonsa, just a regular one. I fully acknowledge that some of these "connections" I've made may not have been GRRM's intention. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I don't really see this ship being canon, and at this point it's wishful thinking. BUT! I wanted to share some other "Jonsa hints" that I really like. This is my crackship, and I'm high on it.

 I'd like to start out by pointing out Jon's and Sansa's unique parallels (the first and last being reversed.)

• Jon=bastard/Sansa=lady
• Jon=Crow/Sansa=Little Bird
• Jon=Wildling/Sansa=Lannister
• Jon=traitor/Sansa=murderer/traitor
• Jon=lord/Sansa=bastard

All the Stark children start out their stories with romantic views of their future. There are three that seem to be the fondest of romantic and heroic stories/dreams. Bran, Sansa, and Jon. Bran dreams of being a knight, Sansa dreams of romance (and begins dreaming of queenship after she is betrothed to Joffrey), and Jon once dreamed of being the Lord of Winterfell but eventually became ashamed of that dream. So instead he turned his dreams to The Nights Watch, where he would one day be a heroic Ranger. All naive, yet healthy desires for children their age. Through their journeys they each battle their fantasized dreams whilst reality punches them repeatedly in the gut. I'll mention that this has been going on longer for Jon than the other Stark children. I'll just focus on Jon's and Sansa's dreams for now, who actually share similar desires. Both Jon and Sansa visualize a spouse and children of their own, who are named after their siblings. Sansa has always wanted this picture that she paints for herself. Jon eventually admits that he has always wanted it as well, but he had buried that picture out of guilt and shame.

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"If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya." -ASOS Sansa II

"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. [...] He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought guiltily. May the gods forgive me." -ASOS Jon XII

Jon's desires stem from a yearning for belonging in regards to the Starks and Winterfell. Sansa's, out of a yearning to be loved. With their deepest desires creeping out, they end up painting the same picture. Both speak of "earning" their spouse's love, Sansa through childbirth and Jon through the Wildling tradition of 'stealing'. By bearing/giving children Sansa would earn love, through an earned love Jon would be given children. I don't believe Jon would ever physically steal a woman, but perhaps one day Sansa or Jon will "steal" the other's heart?

Quote

"Ser Roland swung down from his horse, turned to Alayne, and smiled. 'I had heard that Lord Littlefinger's daughter was fair of face and full of grace, but no one ever told me that she was a thief.'

'You wrong me, ser. I am no thief!'

Ser Roland placed a hand over his heart. 'Then how do you explain this hole in my chest, from where you stole my heart?'" -TWOW Alayne I

(Again, forgive me, because I'm high on my crackship.)

Next we have references to the two of them rebuilding Winterfell (which I decided to save for last). My absolute favorite passage of Sansa is the scene of her enjoying the snow in the garden of the Eyrie. It's peaceful, quiet, soft, even romantic. It's 'pure', as she put it herself. I'll highlight my favorite parts (some of which I like to make romantic connections to Jon Snow.) Just a lot of Snow imagery for our Stone girl.

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“Snow was falling on the Eyrie. Outside the flakes drifted down as soft and silent as memory. […] The sight took Sansa back to cold nights long ago, in the long summer of her childhood. She had last seen snow the day she’d left Winterfell. That was a lighter fall than this, she remembered. Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands. It hurt to remember how happy she had been that morning.

A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here. Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

[...] Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow.” -ASOS Sansa VII

Look, this isn't my fault but GRRM keeps giving Jon and Sansa similar observational references in their chapters and I'm forced to share.

• "Snowflakes speckled Tormund's broad face, melting in his hair and beard." -ASOS Jon II
• "Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me.." -ASOS Sansa VII
• "She could feel snowflakes melting on her cheeks.." -ASOS Sansa VII
• "The cold trickles on his face reminded Jon of the day he'd bid farewell to Robb at Winterfell, never knowing it was for the last time. 'And pull up your hood. The snowflakes are melting in your hair.'" -ADWD Jon II
• "Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks." -ASOS Sansa VII
• "The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown." -ADWD Jon X
• "He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair." -ADWD Jon XIII

More on unique references. I believe they are the only two who are referred to, or refer to themselves as, the 'blood of winterfell' specifically. Maybe they both just like the word 'blood.' (Ross @ Monica in Friends: "stop saying 'blood' to strangers.")

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"You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." -ACOK Jon VI

"His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell." -ACOK Jon VIII

"He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch." -ASOS Jon VI

"I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell." -AFFC Sansa I

We also have Sansa hearing a "ghost wolf" somewhere near or around the time of Jon's death. I know there's a debate surrounding the timeline, but it's still significant to me. If the observation is not connected to Jon, I am curious what it would be in regards to. "A ghost wolf, big as mountains." Why big as mountains?

Quote

"The wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains." -AFFC Alayne II

You'll notice that the persona of Alayne is randomly dropped in this sentence as she becomes Sansa once again in this, albeit, brief moment. It was Sansa who heard the ghost wolf, and not Alayne. There's actually another possible connection to Jon in this same paragraph that leads up to Sansa hearing the ghost wolf.

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"We are walking on a bridge of ice with an abyss on either side." -AFFC Sam I & ADWD Jon II

"All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away to either side. There was ice underfoot and stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains." - AFFC Alayne II

Now, of course, Jon is using this statement as a metaphor to pleasing kings. So perhaps these aren't meant to be connected at all, or maybe they're intended to be a nod to each other. Regardless, Sansa is physically carrying out this metaphorical statement when she hears the wolf howl in the wind. I just thought it was neat.

I think I'll end this with their possible foreshadowing of rebuilding Winterfell.

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“The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell’s muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.“ -ASOS Jon XII

“What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There’s no one to throw them at. She let the one she was making drop from her hand. I could build a snow knight instead, she thought. Or even… She set to work. The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell.” -ASOS Sansa VII

I try not to put too much stock in chapter orders, but in ASOS, Sansa VII comes directly after Jon XII, they're the last two POVs of that book. Both have references to the rebuilding of Winterfell. Make of that what you will.

Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed the read. It's not much and it's kind of messy. I know it's all super basic and bottom shelf observations; it was thanks to some great in-depth metas that roped me into a possible Jon x Sansa ending. Maybe one day I'll make something with stronger connections.

[kissdbyfire]

Stopped by just to say, never ever gonna happen. Sorry, JonSa shippers.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Stopped by just to say, never ever gonna happen. Sorry, JonSa shippers.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I stand by my statement!

ps: care to make a wager? 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I stand by my statement!

ps: care to make a wager? 

Ooh idk. You know how much doubt I have in my ship's ability to stay afloat

[chrisdaw]

People with any kind of sense and responsibility do not get to match and stick for love. If your heart is set on Jon and Sansa, and it obviously is, start thinking how it happens politically.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 3/13/2023 at 10:52 PM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I'll begin this with a PSA. I'm not a freak, I promise..  I'm not a feral Jonsa, just a regular one. I fully acknowledge that some of these "connections" I've made may not have been GRRM's intention. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I don't really see this ship being canon, and at this point it's wishful thinking. BUT! I wanted to share some other "Jonsa hints" that I really like. This is my crackship, and I'm high on it.

 I'd like to start out by pointing out Jon's and Sansa's unique parallels (the first and last being reversed.)

• Jon=bastard/Sansa=lady
• Jon=Crow/Sansa=Little Bird
• Jon=Wildling/Sansa=Lannister
• Jon=traitor/Sansa=murderer/traitor
• Jon=lord/Sansa=bastard

All the Stark children start out their stories with romantic views of their future. There are three that seem to be the fondest of romantic and heroic stories/dreams. Bran, Sansa, and Jon. Bran dreams of being a knight, Sansa dreams of romance (and begins dreaming of queenship after she is betrothed to Joffrey), and Jon once dreamed of being the Lord of Winterfell but eventually became ashamed of that dream. So instead he turned his dreams to The Nights Watch, where he would one day be a heroic Ranger. All naive, yet healthy desires for children their age. Through their journeys they each battle their fantasized dreams whilst reality punches them repeatedly in the gut. I'll mention that this has been going on longer for Jon than the other Stark children. I'll just focus on Jon's and Sansa's dreams for now, who actually share similar desires. Both Jon and Sansa visualize a spouse and children of their own, who are named after their siblings. Sansa has always wanted this picture that she paints for herself. Jon eventually admits that he has always wanted it as well, but he had buried that picture out of guilt and shame.

Jon's desires stem from a yearning for belonging in regards to the Starks and Winterfell. Sansa's, out of a yearning to be loved. With their deepest desires creeping out, they end up painting the same picture. Both speak of "earning" their spouse's love, Sansa through childbirth and Jon through the Wildling tradition of 'stealing'. By bearing/giving children Sansa would earn love, through an earned love Jon would be given children. I don't believe Jon would ever physically steal a woman, but perhaps one day Sansa or Jon will "steal" the other's heart?

(Again, forgive me, because I'm high on my crackship.)

Next we have references to the two of them rebuilding Winterfell (which I decided to save for last). My absolute favorite passage of Sansa is the scene of her enjoying the snow in the garden of the Eyrie. It's peaceful, quiet, soft, even romantic. It's 'pure', as she put it herself. I'll highlight my favorite parts (some of which I like to make romantic connections to Jon Snow.) Just a lot of Snow imagery for our Stone girl.

Look, this isn't my fault but GRRM keeps giving Jon and Sansa similar observational references in their chapters and I'm forced to share.

• "Snowflakes speckled Tormund's broad face, melting in his hair and beard." -ASOS Jon II
• "Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me.." -ASOS Sansa VII
• "She could feel snowflakes melting on her cheeks.." -ASOS Sansa VII
• "The cold trickles on his face reminded Jon of the day he'd bid farewell to Robb at Winterfell, never knowing it was for the last time. 'And pull up your hood. The snowflakes are melting in your hair.'" -ADWD Jon II
• "Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks." -ASOS Sansa VII
• "The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown." -ADWD Jon X
• "He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair." -ADWD Jon XIII

More on unique references. I believe they are the only two who are referred to, or refer to themselves as, the 'blood of winterfell' specifically. Maybe they both just like the word 'blood.' (Ross @ Monica in Friends: "stop saying 'blood' to strangers.")

We also have Sansa hearing a "ghost wolf" somewhere near or around the time of Jon's death. I know there's a debate surrounding the timeline, but it's still significant to me. If the observation is not connected to Jon, I am curious what it would be in regards to. "A ghost wolf, big as mountains." Why big as mountains?

You'll notice that the persona of Alayne is randomly dropped in this sentence as she becomes Sansa once again in this, albeit, brief moment. It was Sansa who heard the ghost wolf, and not Alayne. There's actually another possible connection to Jon in this same paragraph that leads up to Sansa hearing the ghost wolf.

Now, of course, Jon is using this statement as a metaphor to pleasing kings. So perhaps these aren't meant to be connected at all, or maybe they're intended to be a nod to each other. Regardless, Sansa is physically carrying out this metaphorical statement when she hears the wolf howl in the wind. I just thought it was neat.

I think I'll end this with their possible foreshadowing of rebuilding Winterfell.

I try not to put too much stock in chapter orders, but in ASOS, Sansa VII comes directly after Jon XII, they're the last two POVs of that book. Both have references to the rebuilding of Winterfell. Make of that what you will.

Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed the read. It's not much and it's kind of messy. I know it's all super basic and bottom shelf observations; it was thanks to some great in-depth metas that roped me into a possible Jon x Sansa ending. Maybe one day I'll make something with stronger connections.

Really like these and some I haven't even noticed so a huge thanks as well! I really want Jon and Val, especially since he has stolen him numerous times but JonSa is written all over the books. Can Jon as a Targaryern get 2? Or maybe he can use the wildling card (Craster, Ygon Oldfather etc)? I really hope Val doesn't die for JonSa to happen.

@Craving Peaches I must say, I'm really looking forward to a JonSa(tin) thread by you!

[Corvo the Crow]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:26 AM, chrisdaw said:

People with any kind of sense and responsibility do not get to match and stick for love. If your heart is set on Jon and Sansa, and it obviously is, start thinking how it happens politically.

Oh that's easy, it makes sense in internal politics of North and if Dany conquers the Iron Throne and Jon's real identity is made public, also a North-IT alliance.

Jon is raised as Ned's son and everybody looks to him for that (evidenced by hill clansman chiefs in Wall), They may want him to take the North especially considering Rickon is what? 5? not even that? If his identity is revealed he can keep Rickon as Lord but act a regent for him and also marry Sansa to strengthen their position, especially Rickon's since it will prevent anyone to try to take over the North through a marriage to Sansa.

Just so you guys know, Jon's identity not made public also doesn't prevent him from marrying Sansa!

Ugh, disgusting I know, and Too Targish for my taste but there's precedent

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Monfryd’s son Durran XI (the Dim) and his own son Barron (the Beautiful) yielded up all he had gained and more besides. During the long years when Durwald I (the Fat) ruled in Storm’s End, the Masseys broke away, Tarth thrice revolted, and even upon Cape Wrath a challenge arose, from a woods witch known only as the Green Queen, who held the rainwood against Storm’s End for the best part of a generation. For a time it was said Durwald’s rule extended no farther than a man could urinate off the walls of Storm’s End.

The tide turned again when Morden II named his baseborn half brother Ronard as his castellan. A fearsome warrior, Ronard became the ruler of the stormlands in all but name and took King Morden’s sister to wife. Within five years, he had claimed the kingship as well. It was Morden’s own queen who placed Morden’s crown on Ronard’s head. If the songs be true, she shared his bed as well. Morden himself, deemed harmless, was confined to a cell in the tower.

 

I was going to open a topic on this, Incest among First Men, but lost all I've written so just gave up.

 

There's also this curious bit beyond the wall, 

Quote

Of special note were the sons of men of renown. Tormund took care to point them out as they went by. “The boy there is the son of Soren Shieldbreaker,” he said of one tall lad. “Him with the red hair, he’s Gerrick Kingsblood’s get. Comes o’ the line o’ Raymun Redbeard, to hear him tell it. The line o’ Redbeard’s little brother, you want it true.” Two boys looked enough alike to be twins, but Tormund insisted they were cousins, born a year apart. “One was sired by Harle the Huntsman, t’other by Harle the Handsome, both on the same woman. Fathers hate each other. I was you, I’d send one to Eastwatch and t’other to your Shadow Tower.”

Same mother, but they are not considered brothers but cousins. 

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Craving Peaches I must say, I'm really looking forward to a JonSa(tin) thread by you!

I will make one but it may be a few weeks, will have more time during the holidays.

[BalerionTheCat]

I agree Jon and Sansa would be a good match. If only because they are 2 of the main characters.

But I see Sansa more linked to Sandor. SanSan yes. She needs a dog after losing Lady.

And Jon may have a bitter, solitary path before him. If anyone stays with him, it would be Val.