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Jonan the Barbarian and Red Sansa


Corvo the Crow
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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I agree Jon and Sansa would be a good match. If only because they are 2 of the main characters.

But I see Sansa more linked to Sandor. SanSan yes. She needs a dog after losing Lady.

And Jon may have a bitter, solitary path before him. If anyone stays with him, it would be Val.

But... Sandor is Jon, in a sense. Wears Stark colors(white cloak and grey armor instead of white armor), check, scar near eye check, got burnt check, likes listening to a pretty girl singcheck. 

 

Sansa may get kidnapped by Timett since he is also a Jon stand-in.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sansa may get kidnapped by Timett since he is also a Jon stand-in.

I think Sansa will meet and have a deal with the mountain clans. Will give them a place and a future in the Vale. Will continue what Tyrion started. Will be for them what Jon is for the Free Folk. But to be Timett's wife, I don't think.

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12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I think Sansa will meet and have a deal with the mountain clans. Will give them a place and a future in the Vale. Will continue what Tyrion started. Will be for them what Jon is for the Free Folk. But to be Timett's wife, I don't think.

Oh I didn't mean she will be Timmy's wife, Timett quite understands the way Westeros works, obeying orders etc. and seemed to have respect for Tyrion. Don't remember whether Sansa ever encountered him when he was in KL but if she did, she will make him know she is Tyrion's wife which would save her. Sansa being a Jon to the Vale clansmen is an interesting thought but I don't know how such a thing would come to pass or even why.

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12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

but I don't know how such a thing would come to pass or even why

Say Shadrich capture Sansa, to sell her to Cersei. But they are captured in turn by the mountain clans while leaving the Vale.

The thing is, the clans, like the Free Folk, are pariahs, are excluded from Westeros. This must cease, if only to survive the Long Night. Anyway, a kingdom could not be a decent one if some live outside a wall or are left out.

Jon would see to it. But Sansa could do it too. The Starks are good at joining people to their pack. Sansa would be excellent at it, I believe. And at some point she may need forces at her service. Maybe Tyrion hiring them was to prepare, gear them up for Sansa.

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Sansa's going to marry for political purposes (if she makes it long enough for that): if Jon ends up in contention for the throne, maybe him, but she might just end up sticking with Tyrion or a Tyrell. I just don't see Jon and Sansa having, like, good incestuous chemistry, you know? Like they aren't great siblings as is, for them to, like, fuck? What with both of their already considerable trauma, to then be the first sibling incest in their entire Houses history? And I know they aren't actually siblings, but they were raised like it, for the North to accept sibling incest...I just don't see it, and I don't see Sansa wanting it, and I really don't see Jon wanting it, especially after being brought back to life. And I don't see her with Sandor; maybe as friends. I guess I can't really get over the age gap for him, but also, like, Sandor fucking Clegane wants to settle down and marry Sansa Stark and live in the cold fucking north after he finds spiritual awakening with Meribald? Maybe she can be political with the  Martells or the Greyjoys, wrap up their plot, or maybe she'll just be single, who knows. Sansa being defined by who she ends up with has always been a problem for me: like, give her a journey outside of these guys who are all terrible to her, let her develop as a person. 

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2 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Sansa's going to marry for political purposes (if she makes it long enough for that): if Jon ends up in contention for the throne, maybe him, but she might just end up sticking with Tyrion or a Tyrell. I just don't see Jon and Sansa having, like, good incestuous chemistry, you know? Like they aren't great siblings as is, for them to, like, fuck? What with both of their already considerable trauma, to then be the first sibling incest in their entire Houses history? And I know they aren't actually siblings, but they were raised like it, for the North to accept sibling incest...I just don't see it, and I don't see Sansa wanting it, and I really don't see Jon wanting it, especially after being brought back to life. And I don't see her with Sandor; maybe as friends. I guess I can't really get over the age gap for him, but also, like, Sandor fucking Clegane wants to settle down and marry Sansa Stark and live in the cold fucking north after he finds spiritual awakening with Meribald? Maybe she can be political with the  Martells or the Greyjoys, wrap up their plot, or maybe she'll just be single, who knows. Sansa being defined by who she ends up with has always been a problem for me: like, give her a journey outside of these guys who are all terrible to her, let her develop as a person. 

But it's written all over the books. Sansa's first crush is a Jon look-alike, her imagined kiss comes from a Starrk stand-in who is a stand-in for Jon (LF tries to be Ned with his apparelt etc) Jon steals a redhead in a valley called the small trout pass( Skirling pass) who is a small trout in a valley? Sansa all this and more as written in first post.

 

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The thing is, the clans, like the Free Folk, are pariahs, are excluded from Westeros. This must cease, if only to survive the Long Night. Anyway, a kingdom could not be a decent one if some live outside a wall or are left out.

 

But the clans don't amount to anything, they amount to even fewer people than beyond-the-wall. 

Jon says there are 30-40.000 in Mance's host, let's say up until Jon's joining things were so terrible they lost 10.000, 40-50.000 people at most which isn't comparable with even North's population alone. Clansmen are even fewer, they want hauberks and other equipment for just 3000 people. Royce alone can handle them if they come out to the field of battle.

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Poor Sansa. She is one of the least loved characters in the ASOIAF fandom for largely silly, superficial reasons. And even her actual fans pair her up with the most gut churning ships. Jon (her own cousin who she sees as her brother?) Sandor (a man decades older than she is and who nearly raped her one time?) Tyrion (a self-pitying, entitled man child who thinks he's owed love and affection for clearing the absolute lowest possible bar?) Arya (her actual sister. WTF?)

I won't dispute @Corvo the Crow regarding possible Jon/Sandor parallels. Sure. They exist to some extent. That said, just because said parallels exist doesn't mean they were intentional, or that they forshadow anything in particular. I don't see Jonsa happening. 

I do think Jon and Sansa are very similar characters in terms of personality. Both are romantic idealists at heart, just like dear old dad. And Sandor is kind of a bitterly jaded former romantic, whose worldview was shattered in the cruelest way possible. So the three do occupy a similar spectrum of romantic dreamers that GRRM loves to write about. They are joined by Arriane, Sam, Bran, Brienne, Barristan and Quentyn.

Guess Sansa better get busy.

Edited by Nathan Stark
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4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But it's written all over the books. Sansa's first crush is a Jon look-alike, her imagined kiss comes from a Starrk stand-in who is a stand-in for Jon (LF tries to be Ned with his apparelt etc) Jon steals a redhead in a valley called the small trout pass( Skirling pass) who is a small trout in a valley? Sansa all this and more as written in first post.

 

No the parallels are definitely there, Sandor's eyes and Ygritte being notably a redhead is not to be taken lightly, and it would make sense that George would take the Stark incest plot from the 1991 outline and give it to Sansa...just, like @Nathan Stark said, I just want better for her. Like maybe her and Harry could actually work out, or even her and Tyrion could just be in a loveless marriage, but like the Jon thing just bums me out tbh, idk. 

 

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Best Jonsa thread I've ever seen! I don't see how anyone can deny the signs now.

But I don't think it's going to happen (for the usual reasons). I think the signs and parallels point to the symbolic side of things - Jon as Aegon the Conqueror reborn, supported by both his sisters (Ygritte's tangled red hair points to Arya as much as Sansa). Symbols might not mean much in the everyday game of thrones, but I predict they do in matters of high Destiny - the battle for the dawn for example.

9 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Like maybe her and Harry could actually work out, or even her and Tyrion could just be in a loveless marriage, but like the Jon thing just bums me out tbh, idk. 

Or she could remain single? That's not a tragedy - when the books end she'll still be very young, with time to find a partner who deserves her (from current evidence, Harry and Tyrion are far from that).

If Sansa was going to find the love of her life, I'd think we'd have seen him by now, and they'd have made a connection - that just my impression from all the books containing romances I've read before. But she hasn't really connected to anyone, except Sandor, and for a number of reasons, he's not available to her. I think we might be looking at a rare example of courtly love in a modern novel. Or we might be looking at Jon, who knows?

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19 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Sansa being defined by who she ends up with has always been a problem for me: like, give her a journey outside of these guys who are all terrible to her, let her develop as a person. 

 

13 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Poor Sansa. She is one of the least loved characters in the ASOIAF fandom for largely silly, superficial reasons. And even her actual fans pair her up with the most gut churning ships. Jon (her own cousin who she sees as her brother?) Sandor (a man decades older than she is and who nearly raped her one time?) Tyrion (a self-pitying, entitled man child who thinks he's owed love and affection for clearing the absolute lowest possible bar?) Arya (her actual sister. WTF?)

This is definitely not anyone's intention here in this thread. I myself don't even believe it will happen. But people ship what they want and they like to find clues that might support it, I just want everyone to understand that we're not trying to use her development as a crutch for it. I love the idea of Willas/Sansa as well, but people have complained about that too and also called it disgusting because of the age gap. (I get that too.) I'm a bit of a hypocrite I guess, because I find her ships with Sandor, Tyrion, and LF distasteful (and more). But all of this is why I usually keep my ships to myself. And again, I totally understand why people hate it, but it doesn't diminish my love for Sansa as her own character. Shipping always takes a back seat. At the end of the day, I would rather see her with someone she would want to be with. If she chooses to remain a single maiden, good for her.

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20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Royce alone can handle them if they come out to the field of battle.

Not, it's not the arm force they provide. Ill trained, ill equipped. Shelter them and mend this injustice. Because it's the human, decent thing to do.

Not the topic of this thread. But I believe yet another war is not the solution to the problem. The Others are sent by the Old Gods (or specifically the Lion of Night). They cannot be defeated by force in battle. Men must fix their errors, pay for their crimes, and appease the wrath of gods. Nothing else will do. As is suggested by the Yi Ti records of the Long Night.

Edited by BalerionTheCat
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17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Poor Sansa. She is one of the least loved characters in the ASOIAF fandom for largely silly, superficial reasons.

The reasons are not at all superficial and for a long while I didn't like her either, but I think it may stem from the show as well. I started reading shortly after watching the first season (watched it 6 months or so after it's release) and even though when I read the books characters were several years younger than they are the shows, when thinking of them I thought them with their show ages for a long while and the way they were written didn't help at all either so going with show ages would've made more sense for the characters.

 

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I won't dispute @Corvo the Crow regarding possible Jon/Sandor parallels. Sure. They exist to some extent. That said, just because said parallels exist doesn't mean they were intentional, or that they forshadow anything in particular. I don't see Jonsa happening. 

 

Many of them are too much to be unintentional, Skirling pass for example is going too out of way to be unintentional.

 

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I do think Jon and Sansa are very similar characters in terms of personality. Both are romantic idealists at heart, just like dear old dad. And Sandor is kind of a bitterly jaded former romantic, whose worldview was shattered in the cruelest way possible. So the three do occupy a similar spectrum of romantic dreamers that GRRM loves to write about. They are joined by Arriane, Sam, Bran, Brienne, Barristan and Quentyn.

 

I'd say they are their counterparts, in the sense of the roles of their society so if Jon was a female and not a bastard, he'd be more like Sansa than any other characters or a bastard male Sansa would be more like Jon.

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3 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

This is definitely not anyone's intention here in this thread. I myself don't even believe it will happen. But people ship what they want and they like to find clues that might support it, I just want everyone to understand that we're not trying to use her development as a crutch for it. I love the idea of Willas/Sansa as well, but people have complained about that too and also called it disgusting because of the age gap. (I get that too.) I'm a bit of a hypocrite I guess, because I find her ships with Sandor, Tyrion, and LF distasteful (and more). But all of this is why I usually keep my ships to myself. And again, I totally understand why people hate it, but it doesn't diminish my love for Sansa as her own character. Shipping always takes a back seat. At the end of the day, I would rather see her with someone she would want to be with. If she chooses to remain a single maiden, good for her.

I believe it will happen but don't want it to happen... only because I want Jon Val to happen, but if both can happen, I definitely want it to happen :rofl:

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