Wildling Marriage Customs?

[Corvo the Crow]

This has formed a part(a bigger part than I hoped, in the sense that other parts were smaller than I hoped) of the discussion at a thread I opened

 

but I think it really warrants it's own discussion so here you go!

 

We don't know much about their marriage customs but we do know Munda took Longspear Ryk to husband.

Quote

“Your daughter …?”

“Munda.” That brought Tormund’s smile back. “Took that Longspear Ryk to husband, if you believe it. Boy’s got more cock than sense, you ask me, but he treats her well enough. I told him if he ever hurt her, I’d yank his member off and beat him bloody with it.” He gave Jon another hearty slap. “Time you were going back. Keep you any longer, they’re like to think we ate you.”

 

We also know that Ryk stole her

Quote

 

“Was it you killed her?”

“My brother.” Jon had never learned which one, and hoped he never would.

“You bloody crows.” Tormund’s tone was gruff, yet strangely gentle. “That Longspear stole me daughter. Munda, me little autumn apple. Took her right out o’ my tent with all four o’ her brothers about. Toregg slept through it, the great lout, and Torwynd … well, Torwynd the Tame, that says all that needs saying, don’t it? The young ones gave the lad a fight, though.”

“And Munda?” asked Jon.

“She’s my own blood,” said Tormund proudly. “She broke his lip for him and bit one ear half off, and I hear he’s got so many scratches on his back he can’t wear a cloak. She likes him well enough, though. And why not? He don’t fight with no spear, you know. Never has. So where do you think he got that name? Har!”

Jon had to laugh. Even now, even here. Ygritte had been fond of Longspear Ryk. He hoped he found some joy with Tormund’s Munda. Someone needed to find some joy somewhere.

 

 

So despite Ryk stealing Munda, it is Munda who tooks Ryk to husband, implying choice even if the woman is stolen.

 

We also have this from Tormund teaching us how good partners that she-bears are...

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Tormund shook his shaggy head. “What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don’t want her?”

“Steal? I never …”

“You did,” said Tormund. “You slew the two she was with and carried her off, what do you call it?”

“I took her prisoner.”

“You made her yield to you.”

“Yes, but … Tormund, I swear, I’ve never touched her.”

“Are you certain they never cut your member off?” Tormund gave a shrug, as if to say he would never understand such madness. “Well, you are a free man now, but if you will not have the girl, best find yourself a she-bear. If a man does not use his member it grows smaller and smaller, until one day he wants to piss and cannot find it.”

Jon had no answer for that. Small wonder that the Seven Kingdoms thought the free folk scarcely human. They have no laws, no honor, not even simple decency. They steal endlessly from each other, breed like beasts, prefer rape to marriage, and fill the world with baseborn children. Yet he was growing fond of Tormund Giantsbane, great bag of wind and lies though he was. Longspear as well. And Ygritte … no, I will not think about Ygritte.

but more importantly if a man doesn't want a girl, why does he steal her?

 

And some discussion between Jon and Ygritte on stealing

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“Harma and the Bag of Bones don’t come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall.”

“And what if they do? I’d sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t’ some weakling by my father.”

“You say that, but how can you know? What if you were stolen by someone you hated?”

“He’d have t’ be quick and cunning and brave t’ steal me. So his sons would be strong and smart as well. Why would I hate such a man as that?”

“Maybe he never washes, so he smells as rank as a bear.”

“Then I’d push him in a stream or throw a bucket o’ water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn’t smell sweet like flowers.”

“What’s wrong with flowers?”

“Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o’ these.” Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches.

 

 

These all make me think that if a man wants a woman, he steals her to demonstrate himself as a worthy spouse, but after the stealing it is still the women's choice whether to marry or not.

 

What are your thoughts?

@Lord Varys we have already discussed this with you but I'm still giving you a yell as you may still be interested in other opinions that may be contributed here.

 

[Craving Peaches]

I think you've got it right. The 'stealing' is a ritual thing for the husband to demonstrate how 'worthy' he is, and then the lady choses whether to marry him or not. There is the possibility of someone trying to forcefully marry against the lady's wishes but as we discussed in the other thread that would rarely happen because it would likely lead to the death of the 'stealer'.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think you've got it right. The 'stealing' is a ritual thing for the husband to demonstrate how 'worthy' he is, and then the lady choses whether to marry him or not. There is the possibility of someone trying to forcefully marry against the lady's wishes but as we discussed in the other thread that would rarely happen because it would likely lead to the death of the 'stealer'.

Yes it seems to be, we know they also sleep around before marriage so stealing is to make it permanent I guess.

Thoguh I must say how this got fewer replies than Catelyn is a bastard, I don't even understand.

[Hugorfonics]

Minor nitpick. Not every wildling is a free folk

Major nitpick. Not every woman is a spearwife.

The truth is a freefolk woman is as free in her relations as Cersei Lannister 

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Minor nitpick. Not every wildling is a free folk

Major nitpick. Not every woman is a spearwife.

The truth is a freefolk woman is as free in her relations as Cersei Lannister 

So quite free? 

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So quite free? 

Free to murder her unpopular drunk rapist, if she doesn't get caught.

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not every woman is a spearwife.

Even if she isn't I doubt her relatives just stand by and let it happen.

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Even if she isn't I doubt her relatives just stand by and let it happen.

What can they do?

Their daughter is stolen in the middle of the night and by morning is already in enemy territory surrounded by swords and spears.

It's like courting for cavemen

[Corvo the Crow]

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What can they do?

Their daughter is stolen in the middle of the night and by morning is already in enemy territory surrounded by swords and spears.

It's like courting for cavemen

Ask Munda and her brothers.

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ask Munda and her brothers.

 

They were beat senseless and she was abducted. According to her father she fell in love with that dick, how romantic. 

But it's just as likely that she accepted her fate and didn't want to start a war during Mances actual war.

Also shes a spearwife and has confidence in her ability to fight and raid and stuff, many freefolk women aren't like that 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

They were beat senseless and she was abducted. According to her father she fell in love with that dick, how romantic. 

Really? Where does it say this? All I remember is Ryk got his ear bitten off and get his back scratched.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But it's just as likely that she accepted her fate and didn't want to start a war during Mances actual war.

What war would that be? Tormund is in Mance’s close circle and practically his right hand, who’s Longspear Ryk? Just some dude from Ygritte’s insignificant village. Marriage also happens AFTER Mance’s captured Tormund at that point is the leader of his group of 3000

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also shes a spearwife and has confidence in her ability to fight and raid and stuff, many freefolk women aren't like that 

Again where does it even say that? Only spearwifing she does is with Ryk’s Longspear.

[Hugorfonics]

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Really? Where does it say this? All I remember is Ryk got his ear bitten off and get his back scratched.

She at the least gets abducted, if you think she and her brother were unscathed, whatever.

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What war would that be? Tormund is in Mance’s close circle and practically his right hand, who’s Longspear Ryk? Just some dude from Ygritte’s insignificant village. Marriage also happens AFTER Mance’s captured Tormund at that point is the leader of his group of 3000

Well if it was before then she wouldn't be the reason for war.

Idk, Ryk got friends. And like you said her dad is knee deep in warlord politics so it makes sense she wouldn't want to stir the pot

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Again where does it even say that? Only spearwifing she does is with Ryk’s Longspear.

She's a fighting female freefolk. The word for that is a spearwife. She's also a great warriors kid who was probably properly trained by the riches of Giantsbane. So not only is she a spearwife as opposed to the majority of freefolk women but she's basically a lords kid, so I don't think shes the best example as the average freefolk woman

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, Ryk got friends. And like you said her dad is knee deep in warlord politics so it makes sense she wouldn't want to stir the pot

Umm this happens with her father’s knowledge.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She at the least gets abducted, if you think she and her brother were unscathed, whatever.

Jon takes him to squire, he would’ve noticed.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's a fighting female freefolk. The word for that is a spearwife. She's also a great warriors kid who was probably properly trained by the riches of Giantsbane. So not only is she a spearwife as opposed to the majority of freefolk women but she's basically a lords kid, so I don't think shes the best example as the average freefolk woman

Where does it even say that? You are making stuff up, not a single line on her being a fighter so far as I recall. Torwynd was his son, how much of a fighter was he to get that moniker? 

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Umm this happens with her father’s knowledge.

Because she accepts her fate and marries her rapist...

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon takes him to squire, he would’ve noticed.

Brother tries to stop kidnapper abducting his sister. Fails

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Where does it even say that? You are making stuff up, not a single line on her being a fighter so far as I recall.

She Mike Tysond him

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Torwynd was his son, how much of a fighter was he to get that moniker? 

Chances are he's deadlier then the average wildling. But perhaps not, not everyone is their father's Mike Tyson 

[Corvo the Crow]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because she accepts her fate and marries her rapist...

Uh-huh. Has it occured to you that she accepts him because he has proved himself by stealing her so that’s why she accepts?

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Brother tries to stop kidnapper abducting his sister. Fails

Aaand..? Has Ryk hit him? Answer is, as far as we can tell, NO!

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She Mike Tysond him

I never knew that you needed to be trained in arms to bite someone’s ear, thanks for letting me know you learn something new everyday.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Chances are he's deadlier then the average wildling. But perhaps not, not everyone is their father's Mike Tyson 

No proof what so ever. In fact proof to the opposite.

[Lord Varys]

The notion that the woman gives her consent after the fact is nowhere made explicit.

Nor is the example of Munda and Ryk in any way a case representative of the customs and practice of an entire - very disparate - people. It is like saying every arranged marriage is either like that of Ned and Cat, Lysa and Jon, or Stannis and Selyse.

However, in context of Ryk and Munda my take on the whole thing would be that they fell in love prior to the stealing - like Ygritte and her affair already a thing going before the man tried to steal her - and already agreed that they would marry. Then Ryk had to prove his manliness and strength by stealing her - and since everybody was in agreement it was a mild stealing, more a ritual to be enacted than the deadly serious thing this actually is if you steal a woman against her will or the will of her male family.

The notion that the woman has the right to later decline being the property/wife of the man who stole her is ludicrous. Why would a man take physical possession of a woman if he didn't want her? Why would he injure or kill her protectors in the process of it, drag her out of her tent/house and into his own camp where she will be forever at his mercy and the mercy of his kin and friends?

It is even more ludicrous when we assume that the Northwomen the wildlings routinely steal are allowed to return back home if they don't want to be the wives of the filthy savages who abducted and raped them.

A man who steals a woman does prove that he has a right to that woman by virtue of the successful stealing. Wildling culture demands that the woman now defers to that man.

If wildling marriage/property of women was consent-based then we would imagine that men would simply ask women whether they want to be with them - like sane and civilized people do it. And their manliness and strength they would prove not with attacks on the family of the woman in question but, say, by ways of hunting dangerous animals, general sportsmanship, great feat of arms in non-lethal battles, etc.

I find it actually pretty embarrassing to actually defend those customs and try to make them appear less ugly than they clearly are. If you like this wildling culture stuff then own it - and don't try to sugar-coat the aspects you don't like. And also don't fall for the apologetics of the men and women who live in that culture. A wildling considers this shit to be normal. They don't (want to) understand what's wrong with it.

The author clearly didn't invent those cultural practices to have the readership eventually learn that there is nothing wrong with that shit. Yes, not all wildlings are evil people, some are pretty decent, but their cultural practices are shit. Just like, you know, arranged marriages are also a shitty cultural practice even if some arranged marriages actually do work out. Or like incestuous matches are wrong as a cultural practice even if some siblings genuinely fall in love.