Will all the Dothraki simply starve when they land in Westeros?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

2 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Agreed. But remember that the dothraki are used to roam deserts and big plains o' nothing full of ruins and bones and ocasioanlly the big walled city. The riverlands, even after the wars and fires it endured, is still a good plunder for these fellas.

And Dany will bring them down on the Riverlands. As well as the Ironborn. And the she and her supporters will be shocked when people hate her.

[Jon Fossoway]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

And Dany will bring them down on the Riverlands. As well as the Ironborn. And the she and her supporters will be shocked when people hate her.

I don't think she will bring them to the riverlands. In fact I at least never implied that possibility. The dothrakis are not as disciplined as the Unsullied and I simply cannot see them marching united behind Daenerys in a strange land full of people and weakened lordlings ripe for the slavery and their old customs.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To add to this historians tend to think the Mongols would not have faired so well in the forests had they invaded the HRE. And which region is heavily forested? The Stormlands. So any Dothraki landing have the choice of: heavily forested Stormlands, Dornish desert, Vale mountains, or frozen woods in the North. No ideal open plains for them aside from the Reach, and they won't be landing there...

Some do some dont 

The dothraki we know of though ARE used to heavy wooded areas as they travel through the forrest  of qohor.

As for the rest dorne is in with dany , the north would suit them fine (outside of winter....then again no one is dealing with planetos winters well) and the vale unless they can land in gulltown no army alive is getting past the bloody gate anyway.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To add to this historians tend to think the Mongols would not have faired so well in the forests had they invaded the HRE. And which region is heavily forested? The Stormlands. So any Dothraki landing have the choice of: heavily forested Stormlands, Dornish desert, Vale mountains, or frozen woods in the North. No ideal open plains for them aside from the Reach, and they won't be landing there...

The Crownlands are fertile enough to support an army, as is the Reach.

What would probably have stopped the Mongols, had Ogedei not died in 1241, are the West's castles.  Castle-building was an area of military science where Western Europe was in advance of the East, at that time.

[Aldarion]

14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To add to this historians tend to think the Mongols would not have faired so well in the forests had they invaded the HRE. And which region is heavily forested? The Stormlands. So any Dothraki landing have the choice of: heavily forested Stormlands, Dornish desert, Vale mountains, or frozen woods in the North. No ideal open plains for them aside from the Reach, and they won't be landing there...

Reach and Riverlands, but RIverlands have well, rivers, and Danube did prove a major obstacle to Mongols in Hungary... until it froze.

Of course, Mongols couldn't utilize it because everpresent castles combined with winter caused them to start starving to death soon after.

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Crownlands are fertile enough to support an army, as is the Reach.

So were Hungary and Poland in our world... Mongols still starved due to castles.

Now guess what Westeros has an abundance of?

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Crownlands are fertile enough to support an army, as is the Reach.

What would probably have stopped the Mongols, had Ogedei not died in 1241, are the West's castles.  Castle-building was an area of military science where Western Europe was in advance of the East, at that time.

"Ogedei's death stopping the Mongols" is a myth that needs to die. It were, in fact, those ten(!) Hungarian stone castles that stopped Mongols in conquest of Hungary:

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

[Craving Peaches]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Crownlands are fertile enough to support an army, as is the Reach.

Um...they had to supply the capital before the Reach stepped in, Dothraki are not landing in the Reach, Daenerys is potentially bringing tens of thousands of Dothraki, I doubt the Crownlands can feed them all, there is not enough food to feed everyone in Westeros so why is there going to be enough to feed the Dothraki? Also winter is coming and so they can't exactly forage for crops, it will be hard for there horses to graze etc.

[Craving Peaches]

53 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

It were, in fact, those ten(!) Hungarian stone castles that stopped Mongols in conquest of Hungary:

And the HRE had many more so...

From the article you provided which was very good reading:

Quote

Fortified places in Moravia likewise escaped devastation, as they were strongly constructed by German settlers.

And we know the castles in Westeros are proper stone ones not just wooden. So Dothraki should see a complete lack of success...unless of course historical accuracy is ignored in favour of 'rule of cool' or whatever.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Um...they had to supply the capital before the Reach stepped in, Dothraki are not landing in the Reach, Daenerys is potentially bringing tens of thousands of Dothraki, I doubt the Crownlands can feed them all, there is not enough food to feed everyone in Westeros so why is there going to be enough to feed the Dothraki? Also winter is coming and so they can't exactly forage for crops, it will be hard for there horses to graze etc.

It depends how good the Seven Kingdoms' castles are. 

Casterly Rock, Storms End, The Red Keep and (probably) Highgarden are great strongholds, but we don't know what the rest are like.  The Ironborn captured Deepwood Motte, Torrhens Square, and Moat Cailin easily enough.

Dany will presumably be bringing sappers and miners with her, and others who are familiar with siege technology.

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany will presumably be bringing sappers and miners with her, and others who are familiar with siege technology.

Even if she has these she can't sustain a siege if there is not enough food. Which there doesn't look to be. And it's winter. The campaign should face some serious issues.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

And we know the castles in Westeros are proper stone ones not just wooden. So Dothraki should see a complete lack of success...unless of course historical accuracy is ignored in favour of 'rule of cool' or whatever.

There was a thread where we'd covered this before the  2nd mongol invasion was half assed vs a well.preparded enemy that had learned to raid and ambush back , unusaly damp conditions now reported as a factor too (swampy ground) and hadnt nearly the same level of access to trebuchets (needed for stone castles) due to internal factors.

As for our dothraki friends they HAVE beaten stone castles of various kinds before (some from civilisations that seem to be much better builders than the westerosi)  however thats no indication that the current dothraki can do what their ancestors could! 

That said the ancient dothraki and current dothraki may simply rely on the most common siege breaking tactics ....negotiation, betrayal from within the walls or simple starvation or suprise! 

From what we have seen of the current dothraki they do have archers , axes , wagons and horses with rope......all the ingredents for to besige some basic to mid sized  forts etc (although the retarded no armour things means even a shepard boy with a slingshot on the walls can kill a good few)

But the most obvous common sense solution is that in essos  there seems.to be good siege engineers/engineerong knowledge  but it simply  doesnt get discussed !!!  as we see the usless slavers and their press ganged slave troops are able to build capable trenches and 3 trebuchets around mereen! This is prob how the historic dothraki did it and how dany would do it with her liberated slave army (congrats free slaves...you still get to dig all day!!)

 

That said its all for nothing anyway as the starks said winter is comming as are the others so at best theres years of unnatural winter and  at worst a swarm of undead and ice demons too!!!

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Even if she has these she can't sustain a siege if there is not enough food. Which there doesn't look to be. And it's winter. The campaign should face some serious issues.

There wont be one..she has the firey dragons and ice demons are comming...we all.know where shes actualy  gonna end up!

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

19 hours ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

The Riverlands have been ravished by war, I doubt they’ll be that ripe when the Dothraki come to rape and pillage

They'd have better luck raping and pillaging in the Reach at this point. Like you said, the Riverlands have been ravished by war. Alys Karstark tells Jon that harvesting has pretty much come to a complete stop since all the men had left for war. The women, children, elderly, and crippled were left to fend for themselves so the crops were left to rot. And who knows how many of those abandoned their fields to seek refuge behind castle walls. Other than the Vale, it sounds like everything North of the Riverlands is in big trouble.

[Hugorfonics]

Hungarian castles stopped the Mongols like Hoxhas Albanian bunkers stopped the Soviets. Just because your under martial law building a fort every block for your entire long reign doesn't mean the enemy covets your land.

The Mongols were told Hungary has beautiful endless steppes, which is why the Hungarians took it all those years ago. When the Mongols got there they saw the steppes, although beautiful, were not endless. If that's not a thing in Hungary it's not gonna be a thing in the Alps either. Horses need grass. Big horse armies need big areas of grass. 

Like the Reach 

[Rondo]

No they will not.  Daenerys will be well-informed before she ever sets sail for Westeros.  She will know the conditions and will prepare accordingly.  Food for the soldiers are not going to be a problem.  The main issue will be finding a continuous supply of hay for the horses.  Even that can be addressed.  Hay and other food items can be easily shipped from Essos.  Her forces will be seasoned fighting men.  Which will be different from the part time soldiers of Westeros.  A reliable supply chain will be established before the main force arrives.

On 3/11/2023 at 1:06 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Massive food shortage already + casually bringing over tens and thousands of Dothraki = problem.

Also with winter coming ground will be hard and frosty so horses will have difficulty grazing. Can't really forage for much food either as that's what everyone else has been doing and so there's not going to be much left.

They can brutalise the smallfolk all they like but that doesn't change the fact that I doubt there will be enough food for them.

It's not like Daenerys can bring over masses of food from Meereen.

 

[LongRider]

Yanno, in our world baling hay did not start until the 1800's, and the hay bales weren't the tight, storable, shippable bales of today.   Not to mention, the huge calvary of the Dothraki would eat huge amounts of hay every day.  The ships found in Planetos are not big enough to ship enough feed at one time, and the loss of those ships by pirates and enemy ships would really be a great blow to Dany and her armies. If a hay ship did land in Westeros, the logistics and security of transporting the hay inland would be enormous.  Many armies would fight just to get the hay! Also, the cost would be so high, makes me laff to think about it.  I don't see a 'reliable supply chain' from Essos at all, whether for hay or for provisions for her soldiers. 

So, the hay shipping mentioned is a hilarious fantasy.  They would have to forage food for their horses, and they just won't have enough. 

 

[Aldarion]

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hungarian castles stopped the Mongols like Hoxhas Albanian bunkers stopped the Soviets. Just because your under martial law building a fort every block for your entire long reign doesn't mean the enemy covets your land.

The Mongols were told Hungary has beautiful endless steppes, which is why the Hungarians took it all those years ago. When the Mongols got there they saw the steppes, although beautiful, were not endless. If that's not a thing in Hungary it's not gonna be a thing in the Alps either. Horses need grass. Big horse armies need big areas of grass. 

Like the Reach 

So what, according to you, stopped the Mongols?

Again, read the "Ecological Theory" section here:

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

Contemporary sources, Mongol or otherwise, provide absolutely no indication that Hungary was somehow unsuitable for occupation. In fact, they state quite the opposite. So your theory may explain lack of Mongol success in southern Croatia and Germany - and indeed sources mention that Dalmatia had insufficient forage for Mongol horses - but not why they failed to conquer the Pannonian steppe.

Huns managed to settle a massive army in Pannonia, and use it as a base to rule basically whole of the Balkans and even the Western Empire through fear. Why would Mongols fail at something Huns managed to do half a millennia before?

Of course, whether Martin understands this or not is another question...

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

So what, according to you, stopped the Mongols?

Again, read the "Ecological Theory" section here:

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

Contemporary sources, Mongol or otherwise, provide absolutely no indication that Hungary was somehow unsuitable for occupation. In fact, they state quite the opposite. So your theory may explain lack of Mongol success in southern Croatia and Germany - and indeed sources mention that Dalmatia had insufficient forage for Mongol horses - but not why they failed to conquer the Pannonian steppe.

Huns managed to settle a massive army in Pannonia, and use it as a base to rule basically whole of the Balkans and even the Western Empire through fear. Why would Mongols fail at something Huns managed to do half a millennia before?

Of course, whether Martin understands this or not is another question...

Good post and great article 

Id say the failure of the 2nd attempt at hungary was a mixture of reasons all combining into a perfect storm from hungarys excellent  reforms  ,some reports of a very damp year affecting things ,  to limited commitment to a prolonged  campaign from a people expecting the same walkover victory as their 1st  invasion.

The idea that there wast enough grass etc makes nonsense as you said the huns were there before them

The idea it was stone castles alone broke them collapses when we see earlier mongols taking the time to recruit siege engineers to build literaly hundreds of trebuchets for sieges...but then hungary wasnt the same  prize china or the muslim east was.

 

That said in relation to this book the mongol never neglected armour nor had to deal with oncomming winters of years on top of ice demons and zombie armies...so a much much shittier version of the mongols may be walking into a country far tougher than any the real mongols had to deal with!!!

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

The idea it was stone castles alone broke them collapses when we see earlier mongols taking the time to recruit siege engineers to build literaly hundreds of trebuchets for sieges...but then hungary wasnt the same  prize china or the muslim east was.

Obviously it wasn't the castles alone, but they were a big factor, because those siege engineers they couldn't get to Europe so the castles were a huge issue, the article even notes that Chinese castles built more like European ones were an issue despite siege engineers. Also Europeans weren't selling each other out to the Mongols all the time like everyone else. And Hungary was good land and would have given a launchpad for further invasion into HRE and stuff so...?

[SeanF]

One can't be too revisionist.  The Mongols, in their invasion of Russia and Eastern Europe, in 1236-1242, pretty well annihilated every army that met them in the field, and sacked plenty of cities.

But, enough fortresses held out to cause them real difficulty.  That the Mongols very much had the best of the fighting, during that campaign cannot seriously be disputed, however. 

Over the next forty five years, the Hungarians very wisely built numerous new fortresses, made peace with the Cumans, and built up the number of heavy cavalry, the one arm of battle that had hurt the Mongols during the fighting. So, the invasion of 1285-6 was a failure.

The situation was somewhat similar to that in France between 1340 and 1380.  The English army was more or less invincible in battle, so the French stopped offering battle to them, relying instead on better fortifications, capturing strongholds in sieges, and resorting to Fabian tactics to wear the English down.

So, when Dany invades, will her enemies hole up in strongholds, while harassing her forces and wearing them down, or will they instead, decide that such a strategy is cowardly, and seek to defeat her in the field. like the French knights at Crecy and Poitiers?  All knights dreamed of sweeping their enemies aside in a magnificent charge.  The French forgot all the lessons they'd learned, fighting the English, when they were crushed by the Ottomans at Nicopolis.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Obviously it wasn't the castles alone, but they were a big factor, because those siege engineers they couldn't get to Europe so the castles were a huge issue, the article even notes that Chinese castles built more like European ones were an issue despite siege engineers. Also Europeans weren't selling each other out to the Mongols all the time like everyone else. And Hungary was good land and would have given a launchpad for further invasion into HRE and stuff so...?

Yeah  but equaly big a factor are the other issues too...esp id say expecting to turn up and find shitty wooden forts again! That suprise and the vastly improved quality of the hungarian forces and their focus on guerilla warfare and raids rather than meeting the enemy en masse  in the field too.

Overall the aim of  expecting to be another  raid on steriods instead of a lengthy campaign thus would have needed serious time + cash  and a commitment to stay , moving siege engineers over  long distances or  commitment to stay and recruit new ones from a populace that see you as just savages that will soon move on etc

The chinese vs european castles issue gets brought up a lot when mongols are discussed but its not a huge factor, some chinese +muslim  stone castles had packed earth (actualy iv read  on adverage  usualy thicker walls  to compensate though) but plenty  others were made the same way as the ones in europe ( ie rubble instead) ..... besides itd all look the same after some counterweight trebuchets go to work regardless!!!! 

For the  dothraki in westeros its all moot unless   we gotta assume that zombie jon gets the job done vs the others so the years long  winter and demon swarm attack is cancellled OR dany has to go there 1st and buzzes them like an a10  tabkbuster with drogo!!!!!