Will all the Dothraki simply starve when they land in Westeros?

[astarkchoice]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

One can't be too revisionist.  The Mongols, in their invasion of Russia and Eastern Europe, in 1236-1242, pretty well annihilated every army that met them in the field, and sacked plenty of cities.

But, enough fortresses held out to cause them real difficulty.  That the Mongols very much had the best of the fighting, during that campaign cannot seriously be disputed, however. 

Over the next forty five years, the Hungarians very wisely built numerous new fortresses, made peace with the Cumans, and built up the number of heavy cavalry, the one arm of battle that had hurt the Mongols during the fighting. So, the invasion of 1285-6 was a failure.

The situation was somewhat similar to that in France between 1340 and 1380.  The English army was more or less invincible in battle, so the French stopped offering battle to them, relying instead on better fortifications, capturing strongholds in sieges, and resorting to Fabian tactics to wear the English down.

So, when Dany invades, will her enemies hole up in strongholds, while harassing her forces and wearing them down, or will they instead, decide that such a strategy is cowardly, and seek to defeat her in the field. like the French knights at Crecy and Poitiers?  All knights dreamed of sweeping their enemies aside in a magnificent charge.  The French forgot all the lessons they'd learned, fighting the English, when they were crushed by the Ottomans at Nicopolis.

Yeah id say once westetos hears shes got 3 semi adult dragons all talk of resistance melts regardless. 

 

That said for allt he dothraki talk i dont think like the tv  show shes gonna bring them with her, they are a major component of the slavery trade.

Id say she is taken to vaes dothraki, badly treated but learns from the dosh khaleen and the ancient ruines there (some are valayrian) maybe even finds her own dragon horn..then burns the city to the grounf before going back to a mereen stabilised by ser barristans victory over the slavers

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

So what, according to you, stopped the Mongols?

Physically? Idk Jesus?

I still think it's largely logistics, some politics, but the staggering death toll after their victory I don't think would dissuade them, in fact Mongols were known to be sore losers. They'd just go harder if they thought their reputation was at stake. And they took Mohi

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Contemporary sources, Mongol or otherwise, provide absolutely no indication that Hungary was somehow unsuitable for occupation. In fact, they state quite the opposite. So your theory may explain lack of Mongol success in southern Croatia and Germany - and indeed sources mention that Dalmatia had insufficient forage for Mongol horses - but not why they failed to conquer the Pannonian steppe.

The whole purpose was to use Hungary as a launching pad, like Mongolia was a pad for China. However the pad wasnt as big as they thought and decided it'd be insufficient as a launch pad for Germany or France on the mythical Atlantic, which they totally wanted to see. Hungary itself isn't worth it.

6 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Huns managed to settle a massive army in Pannonia, and use it as a base to rule basically whole of the Balkans and even the Western Empire through fear. Why would Mongols fail at something Huns managed to do half a millennia before?

Huns had their fifteen minutes of fame, but after the brilliance of Atilla the Huns vanished from politics, swept aside by European muscle. 

Perhaps the Mongols didn't stay precisely because the Huns failed a millennia ago

 

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

One can't be too revisionist

Lol don't tell the Hungarians that. After Bela saw his entire noble class wiped out and some of the greatest orders of knights in the world now permanently vanished, he went straight to telling Europe how he saved the day.

Kinda like how Hungarians love naming their sons Atilla because, in for a stag in for a dragon, Huns are actually the ancestors of the Hungarians! See, Hun Hun garian, the math checks out! But of course the Magyars are as Hunnish as they are Mongolian, however on the other hand, Atilla is a badass name and the castles of Hungary are very majestic looking so who the hell really cares lol?

[Aldarion]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Physically? Idk Jesus?

I still think it's largely logistics, some politics, but the staggering death toll after their victory I don't think would dissuade them, in fact Mongols were known to be sore losers. They'd just go harder if they thought their reputation was at stake. And they took Mohi

I will point out here that castle warfare is all about logistics. And yeah, staggering death toll after victory wouldn't dissuade them... lack of progress, however, would. Mongols in fact specifically noted Europe for strong fortifications.

Mohi was a close-run thing. Mongols won, but it wasn't an overwhelming victory. More importantly however, stone castles combined with the fact that King Bela escaped meant that quick conquest of Hungary (and especially Croatia, which had a lot of stone fortifications plus rather unsuitable terrain) was not possible. Taking Mohi hardly helped with taking castles and fortified cities, so basically, Mongols didn't conquer Hungary because Mongols couldn't conquer Hungary.

You clearly haven't read the article I linked:

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

But the Mongols overstretched themselves, and the Battle of Mohi was nearly a disaster for Batu Khan. In fact, Batu had expressed desire to evacuate Europe in early 1241. This desire will have only increased as European defensive strategy shifted from open battles to defense of strongholds, which in any case was preferred strategy in European style of warfare. Mongols marauded freely over Moravia and Croatia, but they were unable to do much damage as they couldn’t take fortified cities. Thomas the Archdeacon notes that “They remained in the region of Croatia and Dalmatia for the whole of March, during which time they descended five or six times on the cities, returning thereafter to their camp.” Seeing as how no coastal cities had been destroyed, it is clear that their defences successfully held off the Mongols. Hungarians held up Mongols for 10 months along the banks of the Danube, up until the river froze and allowed the Mongols to cross over.

And earlier over the summer, Mongols were forced to reduce numerous improvised fortifications and strongholds constructed all across the Hungary. And eastern Hungary had lagged significantly behind the Western and Southern Europe in terms of both numbers and quality of fortifications, making it very vulnerable to Mongols. The commital castles of Hungary which Mongols had reduced were all nothing more than primitive wooden motte-and-bailey castles. Six castles which did survive were located on elevated sites, allowing them to survive Mongol bombardment. Hungary in fact had only ten “new-style” castles, constructed out of stone and according to Western European practices. Five of those were along the border with Austria. But out of the other five stone castles – all of which ended up isolated and deep behind the Mongol lines – none were conquered by the Mongols, and all survived essentially undamaged. Western Europe by contrast had a very large number of such “new-style” castles, some of which were among the most impressive Medieval fortifications ever built.

Western European fortifications were markedly superior to their equivalents in Eastern Europe or Middle East. When Mongols entered Levant, they did not even attempt to take Crusader strongholds such as Antioch. While city of Sidon did fall to Mongols, its castle – where the defenders withdrew – was not even attacked by them. Mongol siege efforts in China relied heavily on the troops and expertise of local Chinese auxiliaries, but these were unavailable in the West.

But even with heavy armour, Mongols did not like besieging cities, as it required them to dismount. A wide range of sources, such as Byzantine Strategikon and the Chinese manuals, note that nomadic tribes were not adept at fighting on foot. While Mongols had shown themselves able to reduce cities in Eastern Europe, they always suffered heavy casualties in doing so. Far more sophisticated Western European fortifications will have been a major obstacle. Mongols were well aware of this. In 1246., Guyug demanded that Europe surrenders its fortifications as a condition of peace. And after receiving report of Guyug’s conduct on the western campaign, Ögödei apparently wished to punish him by placing him in the vanguard to assault “the town walls which are as high as mountains.”.

Mongol siege of the Wroclow castle in Silesia was a failure, and they refused to even try to besiege castle at Liegnitz after winning the battle outside. Fortified places in Moravia likewise escaped devastation, as they were strongly constructed by German settlers.

Mongols conquered Balkan, whose inhabitants lacked the resources to build stone fortifications, yet nearby Greece escaped such fate – largely thanks to its stone castles. Mongols also never attempted to besiege Constantinople, despite its proximity to the Golden Horde. Extensive Byzantine system of stone fortifications makes it no surprise that the Emperor John III Vatatzes “sent envoys and after he got to know the Mongols, took little heed of them.”. He had nothing to fear, as Byzantines could simply retreat to castles and fortresses and wait until the Mongols left.

Song themselves, despite facing a vastly increased Mongol empire which now could also rely on Jin auxilliaries for siege warfare, resisted for five decades. They also, preparing for Mongol invasion, decided to break with traditional Chinese construction principles. Instead, Yu Jue’s defense system resembled European castles, with fortresses being situated atop cliffs, but close to metropolitan centres whose officials could evacuate to forts. This new system performed brilliantly, with major offensives by Mongols in 1246., 1258. and 1259. all failling. Mongke himself was killed in the fighting at siege of Diaoyucheng. But while Yu Jue’s defense system had proven effective, it lacked depth – unlike the European castle system, new Chinese system was not widely adopted across the country. Fortified city of Xiangyang was thus besieged in 1268., but it resisted until 1271. when Muslim engineers sent by the Ilkhanate provided the besiegers with counterweight trebuchets. It should be noted that these weapons had originated in the Mediterranean, and were known in Europe and Middle East since before 1187. The version specifically used here – the double counterweight trebuchet or the bricola – had first appeared in Western Europe in the 13th century, and adopted by the Mamluks in 1250s. Rashid al-Din, who had no pro-European bias, plainly states that Frankish siege engines were brought to China and they were decisive in bringing a swift end to the war.

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The whole purpose was to use Hungary as a launching pad, like Mongolia was a pad for China. However the pad wasnt as big as they thought and decided it'd be insufficient as a launch pad for Germany or France on the mythical Atlantic, which they totally wanted to see. Hungary itself isn't worth it.

If Hungary wasn't "worth it", why did Mongols spend a year trying to conquer it? Why did they invade again in 1285. - 1286.? Why did they spend several months in Dalmatia, which very definitely wasn't suited for their style of warfare? And if Mongols were so good at taking stone fortifications, why did they need Chinese defectors and European counterweight trebuchets to conquer Song cities in 1270s? Why did Byzantines decide that Mongols weren't their problem and proceeded to simply ignore them?

Seems to me they decided "it wasn't worth it" because they couldn't conquer it. And Europe wasn't the only place where Mongols failed to conquer castles: see quotes I provided above.

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Huns had their fifteen minutes of fame, but after the brilliance of Atilla the Huns vanished from politics, swept aside by European muscle. 

Perhaps the Mongols didn't stay precisely because the Huns failed a millennia ago

True. Mongols weren't idiots - they saw that they wouldn't able to stay, so they decided not to die in vain. And also spread the myth that it was only khan's death that made them withdraw in order to save face.

10 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The idea it was stone castles alone broke them collapses when we see earlier mongols taking the time to recruit siege engineers to build literaly hundreds of trebuchets for sieges...but then hungary wasnt the same  prize china or the muslim east was.

 

In fact, what you wrote supports the idea that it were stone castles which stopped the Mongols in Europe. It was Chinese who conquered China for the Mongols - Mongols depended heavily on local siege warfare expertise. Where sufficient numbers of defectors were not available - Europeans generally refused to defect and submit the way Chinese did - Mongols failed at taking fortifications.

But even in China, where majority of Mongol armies were Chinese infantry and siege engineers, conquest was not easy.

It is basically what SeanF wrote:

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

One can't be too revisionist.  The Mongols, in their invasion of Russia and Eastern Europe, in 1236-1242, pretty well annihilated every army that met them in the field, and sacked plenty of cities.

But, enough fortresses held out to cause them real difficulty.  That the Mongols very much had the best of the fighting, during that campaign cannot seriously be disputed, however. 

Over the next forty five years, the Hungarians very wisely built numerous new fortresses, made peace with the Cumans, and built up the number of heavy cavalry, the one arm of battle that had hurt the Mongols during the fighting. So, the invasion of 1285-6 was a failure.

The situation was somewhat similar to that in France between 1340 and 1380.  The English army was more or less invincible in battle, so the French stopped offering battle to them, relying instead on better fortifications, capturing strongholds in sieges, and resorting to Fabian tactics to wear the English down.

So, when Dany invades, will her enemies hole up in strongholds, while harassing her forces and wearing them down, or will they instead, decide that such a strategy is cowardly, and seek to defeat her in the field. like the French knights at Crecy and Poitiers?  All knights dreamed of sweeping their enemies aside in a magnificent charge.  The French forgot all the lessons they'd learned, fighting the English, when they were crushed by the Ottomans at Nicopolis.

Though I will note here that neither the Unsullied nor the Dothraki are anywhere close to either the Ottoman or Mongol forces.

If Martin decides to have them destroy Westerosi host anyway, he will have hard time writing that without making it look silly...

8 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The chinese vs european castles issue gets brought up a lot when mongols are discussed but its not a huge factor, some chinese +muslim  stone castles had packed earth (actualy iv read  on adverage  usualy thicker walls  to compensate though) but plenty  others were made the same way as the ones in europe ( ie rubble instead) ..... besides itd all look the same after some counterweight trebuchets go to work regardless!!!! 

 

Yes and no. Difference in Chinese vs European castles was not (again, read the linked article for more detail) so much in construction as it was in doctrine.

In China, it were only really major cities that got fortified. Castles were - especially before the Mongols invaded - very rare. So what this meant was that if Mongols couldn't take a city, they could sit in proximity, pillage, plunder, and look for Chinese mercenaries to breach the walls. And when the city eventually did fall, it came with a massive swath of territory and populace... which could then be used to finance new conquest, and help in sieges. Again, it was the Chinese who conquered China for the Mongols, not Mongols themselves.

In Europe, however - particularly Western Europe, but even in pre-1241. Poland and Hungary to an extent - you had this massive network of castles, watchtowers and stuff. Most of these were far smaller and less well defended than Chinese forts... but there were a ton of them. You couldn't move beyond the next hill without encountering another castle. Taking them took time, and Mongols - regardless of what myths say - couldn't live off air alone, and were still vulnerable to losses due to disease. In fact, their nomadic way of life meant that sickness and epidemics during a siege were a far greater threat to them than they were to Europeans. Mongols could have won all the field battles they wanted, but actually conquering Europe will have taken far more time and manpower than they had to spare. So they left, and used an excuse to preserve their reputation.

[astarkchoice]

21 hours ago, Aldarion said:

I will point out here that castle warfare is all about logistics. And yeah, staggering death toll after victory wouldn't dissuade them... lack of progress, however, would. Mongols in fact specifically noted Europe for strong fortifications.

Mohi was a close-run thing. Mongols won, but it wasn't an overwhelming victory. More importantly however, stone castles combined with the fact that King Bela escaped meant that quick conquest of Hungary (and especially Croatia, which had a lot of stone fortifications plus rather unsuitable terrain) was not possible. Taking Mohi hardly helped with taking castles and fortified cities, so basically, Mongols didn't conquer Hungary because Mongols couldn't conquer Hungary.

You clearly haven't read the article I linked:

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

But the Mongols overstretched themselves, and the Battle of Mohi was nearly a disaster for Batu Khan. In fact, Batu had expressed desire to evacuate Europe in early 1241. This desire will have only increased as European defensive strategy shifted from open battles to defense of strongholds, which in any case was preferred strategy in European style of warfare. Mongols marauded freely over Moravia and Croatia, but they were unable to do much damage as they couldn’t take fortified cities. Thomas the Archdeacon notes that “They remained in the region of Croatia and Dalmatia for the whole of March, during which time they descended five or six times on the cities, returning thereafter to their camp.” Seeing as how no coastal cities had been destroyed, it is clear that their defences successfully held off the Mongols. Hungarians held up Mongols for 10 months along the banks of the Danube, up until the river froze and allowed the Mongols to cross over.

And earlier over the summer, Mongols were forced to reduce numerous improvised fortifications and strongholds constructed all across the Hungary. And eastern Hungary had lagged significantly behind the Western and Southern Europe in terms of both numbers and quality of fortifications, making it very vulnerable to Mongols. The commital castles of Hungary which Mongols had reduced were all nothing more than primitive wooden motte-and-bailey castles. Six castles which did survive were located on elevated sites, allowing them to survive Mongol bombardment. Hungary in fact had only ten “new-style” castles, constructed out of stone and according to Western European practices. Five of those were along the border with Austria. But out of the other five stone castles – all of which ended up isolated and deep behind the Mongol lines – none were conquered by the Mongols, and all survived essentially undamaged. Western Europe by contrast had a very large number of such “new-style” castles, some of which were among the most impressive Medieval fortifications ever built.

Western European fortifications were markedly superior to their equivalents in Eastern Europe or Middle East. When Mongols entered Levant, they did not even attempt to take Crusader strongholds such as Antioch. While city of Sidon did fall to Mongols, its castle – where the defenders withdrew – was not even attacked by them. Mongol siege efforts in China relied heavily on the troops and expertise of local Chinese auxiliaries, but these were unavailable in the West.

But even with heavy armour, Mongols did not like besieging cities, as it required them to dismount. A wide range of sources, such as Byzantine Strategikon and the Chinese manuals, note that nomadic tribes were not adept at fighting on foot. While Mongols had shown themselves able to reduce cities in Eastern Europe, they always suffered heavy casualties in doing so. Far more sophisticated Western European fortifications will have been a major obstacle. Mongols were well aware of this. In 1246., Guyug demanded that Europe surrenders its fortifications as a condition of peace. And after receiving report of Guyug’s conduct on the western campaign, Ögödei apparently wished to punish him by placing him in the vanguard to assault “the town walls which are as high as mountains.”.

Mongol siege of the Wroclow castle in Silesia was a failure, and they refused to even try to besiege castle at Liegnitz after winning the battle outside. Fortified places in Moravia likewise escaped devastation, as they were strongly constructed by German settlers.

Mongols conquered Balkan, whose inhabitants lacked the resources to build stone fortifications, yet nearby Greece escaped such fate – largely thanks to its stone castles. Mongols also never attempted to besiege Constantinople, despite its proximity to the Golden Horde. Extensive Byzantine system of stone fortifications makes it no surprise that the Emperor John III Vatatzes “sent envoys and after he got to know the Mongols, took little heed of them.”. He had nothing to fear, as Byzantines could simply retreat to castles and fortresses and wait until the Mongols left.

Song themselves, despite facing a vastly increased Mongol empire which now could also rely on Jin auxilliaries for siege warfare, resisted for five decades. They also, preparing for Mongol invasion, decided to break with traditional Chinese construction principles. Instead, Yu Jue’s defense system resembled European castles, with fortresses being situated atop cliffs, but close to metropolitan centres whose officials could evacuate to forts. This new system performed brilliantly, with major offensives by Mongols in 1246., 1258. and 1259. all failling. Mongke himself was killed in the fighting at siege of Diaoyucheng. But while Yu Jue’s defense system had proven effective, it lacked depth – unlike the European castle system, new Chinese system was not widely adopted across the country. Fortified city of Xiangyang was thus besieged in 1268., but it resisted until 1271. when Muslim engineers sent by the Ilkhanate provided the besiegers with counterweight trebuchets. It should be noted that these weapons had originated in the Mediterranean, and were known in Europe and Middle East since before 1187. The version specifically used here – the double counterweight trebuchet or the bricola – had first appeared in Western Europe in the 13th century, and adopted by the Mamluks in 1250s. Rashid al-Din, who had no pro-European bias, plainly states that Frankish siege engines were brought to China and they were decisive in bringing a swift end to the war.

If Hungary wasn't "worth it", why did Mongols spend a year trying to conquer it? Why did they invade again in 1285. - 1286.? Why did they spend several months in Dalmatia, which very definitely wasn't suited for their style of warfare? And if Mongols were so good at taking stone fortifications, why did they need Chinese defectors and European counterweight trebuchets to conquer Song cities in 1270s? Why did Byzantines decide that Mongols weren't their problem and proceeded to simply ignore them?

Seems to me they decided "it wasn't worth it" because they couldn't conquer it. And Europe wasn't the only place where Mongols failed to conquer castles: see quotes I provided above.

True. Mongols weren't idiots - they saw that they wouldn't able to stay, so they decided not to die in vain. And also spread the myth that it was only khan's death that made them withdraw in order to save face.

In fact, what you wrote supports the idea that it were stone castles which stopped the Mongols in Europe. It was Chinese who conquered China for the Mongols - Mongols depended heavily on local siege warfare expertise. Where sufficient numbers of defectors were not available - Europeans generally refused to defect and submit the way Chinese did - Mongols failed at taking fortifications.

But even in China, where majority of Mongol armies were Chinese infantry and siege engineers, conquest was not easy.

It is basically what SeanF wrote:

Though I will note here that neither the Unsullied nor the Dothraki are anywhere close to either the Ottoman or Mongol forces.

If Martin decides to have them destroy Westerosi host anyway, he will have hard time writing that without making it look silly...

Yes and no. Difference in Chinese vs European castles was not (again, read the linked article for more detail) so much in construction as it was in doctrine.

In China, it were only really major cities that got fortified. Castles were - especially before the Mongols invaded - very rare. So what this meant was that if Mongols couldn't take a city, they could sit in proximity, pillage, plunder, and look for Chinese mercenaries to breach the walls. And when the city eventually did fall, it came with a massive swath of territory and populace... which could then be used to finance new conquest, and help in sieges. Again, it was the Chinese who conquered China for the Mongols, not Mongols themselves.

In Europe, however - particularly Western Europe, but even in pre-1241. Poland and Hungary to an extent - you had this massive network of castles, watchtowers and stuff. Most of these were far smaller and less well defended than Chinese forts... but there were a ton of them. You couldn't move beyond the next hill without encountering another castle. Taking them took time, and Mongols - regardless of what myths say - couldn't live off air alone, and were still vulnerable to losses due to disease. In fact, their nomadic way of life meant that sickness and epidemics during a siege were a far greater threat to them than they were to Europeans. Mongols could have won all the field battles they wanted, but actually conquering Europe will have taken far more time and manpower than they had to spare. So they left, and used an excuse to preserve their reputation.

Hmm agree with a lot of this but feel when we are talking siege engineers and mongols/huns its  sorta gets into semantics. Most of the 'hun' army(which itself did well vs fortifications) wasnt th8e actual hun themselves 

For the mongols , i mean anyone whos joins the mongol army, takes pay and moves up the ranks within it is part of their force now not just a defector.  In both forces the promotion and rewarding on merit over birth is part of what made their war machines so brilliant!

 

As for grmm and ths unsullied/dothraki comming to westeros the issue is of course that fantasy writing now meets medieval reality,siege engineers just arent as  cool to write about  as dragons,orks or wizzards so they get neglected in fantasy books set in medievalish periods.

We already seen this when danys slaves and unsullied  turn her tiny fleet of ships into wood and the wood into battering rams with turtles built for protection,  ladders,manlets and even catapaults!! Theres no mention of engineers they just somehow made it happen 

2nd sirge  despite utter choas of the slavers the slaves manage to to set up trench lines and  3  working trebuchets!!!

For context to our story thats the same sort of ex  slaves danys going to westeros with so she should be fine (fine of course as long as the   years long u witter and snow demons get sorted 1st!

[Aldarion]

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Hmm agree with a lot of this but feel when we are talking siege engineers and mongols/huns its  sorta gets into semantics. Most of the 'hun' army(which itself did well vs fortifications) wasnt th8e actual hun themselves 

 

Hun army in 5th century did well against the fortifications thanks to having employed Roman siege engineers.

Mongols failed to do that in Europe and so failed to do well. They did manage to acquire Chinese infantry, and thus did manage to conquer China.

But even then, Huns were still limited by nomadic logistics... hence why they settled in the Pannonia, and why Mongols tried to do the same.

16 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

For the mongols , i mean anyone whos joins the mongol army, takes pay and moves up the ranks within it is part of their force now not just a defector.  In both forces the promotion and rewarding on merit over birth is part of what made their war machines so brilliant!

 

Agreed. And they were smart enough to utilize knowledge of the settled peoples that they had no institutional prerequisites themselves - such as combat engineers and siege warfare.

16 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

As for grmm and ths unsullied/dothraki comming to westeros the issue is of course that fantasy writing now meets medieval reality,siege engineers just arent as  cool to write about  as dragons,orks or wizzards so they get neglected in fantasy books set in medievalish periods.

We already seen this when danys slaves and unsullied  turn her tiny fleet of ships into wood and the wood into battering rams with turtles built for protection,  ladders,manlets and even catapaults!! Theres no mention of engineers they just somehow made it happen 

2nd sirge  despite utter choas of the slavers the slaves manage to to set up trench lines and  3  working trebuchets!!!

For context to our story thats the same sort of ex  slaves danys going to westeros with so she should be fine (fine of course as long as the   years long u witter and snow demons get sorted 1st!

True. And that is what worries me. Martin did well with sieges of Riverrun, but those sieges were mostly in the background. And attack on King's Landing, well, we didn't see that much of it.

But yeah, that is why I don't really like Daenerys. She does all these awesome things but with no real explanation as to how they were possible in the first place.

16 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

2nd sirge  despite utter choas of the slavers the slaves manage to to set up trench lines and  3  working trebuchets!!!

For context to our story thats the same sort of ex  slaves danys going to westeros with so she should be fine (fine of course as long as the   years long u witter and snow demons get sorted 1st!

Agreed.

[astarkchoice]

11 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Hun army in 5th century did well against the fortifications thanks to having employed Roman siege engineers.

Mongols failed to do that in Europe and so failed to do well. They did manage to acquire Chinese infantry, and thus did manage to conquer China.

But even then, Huns were still limited by nomadic logistics... hence why they settled in the Pannonia, and why Mongols tried to do the same.

Agreed. And they were smart enough to utilize knowledge of the settled peoples that they had no institutional prerequisites themselves - such as combat engineers and siege warfare.

True. And that is what worries me. Martin did well with sieges of Riverrun, but those sieges were mostly in the background. And attack on King's Landing, well, we didn't see that much of it.

But yeah, that is why I don't really like Daenerys. She does all these awesome things but with no real explanation as to how they were possible in the first place.

Agreed.

Yeah true but  i dont think europeans had some kind of special loyalty to their fedudal overlords that stopped the mongols doing what they did in china etc and recruiting local talent, overall  the horde in the 2nd invasion overall.seems.to have been poorly led compared to other campaigns...the very fact they expected the same wooden pisspot forts speaks volumes.about how poor the leadership was.

As for the huns it would have been interesting had they won at the catalaunian plains.

Yeah agreed for riverrun it kinda went without saying the richest region in westeros (westerlands) with a huge active port and multiple active mines could easily hire the sort of engineering prowess a siege needs but wish martin had gone into more details for danys sieges 

Maybe a short segment where they search out engineers among the slaves

[Aldarion]

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah true but  i dont think europeans had some kind of special loyalty to their fedudal overlords that stopped the mongols doing what they did in china etc and recruiting local talent, overall  the horde in the 2nd invasion overall.seems.to have been poorly led compared to other campaigns...the very fact they expected the same wooden pisspot forts speaks volumes.about how poor the leadership was.

 

They didn't have special loyalty to their overlords, true. What they did have however is disdain towards foreigners. Chinese had had, by Mongol conquest, a long history of being ruled by foreigners, and accepted Mongols relatively easily, especially since they were already ruled by a foreign dynasty - which was quite despised - at the time of the conquest. Europeans... didn't. They chose resistance over submission basically every time, so Mongols didn't have a necessary pool of recruits to provide them with siege knowledge.

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

As for the huns it would have been interesting had they won at the catalaunian plains.

 

True.

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Maybe a short segment where they search out engineers among the slaves

I doubt there will be any, unless Martin has screwed up. Engineers were never slaves. Maybe among the Unsullied, though.

Likely, she will have to rely on Westerosi allies.

[astarkchoice]

10 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

They didn't have special loyalty to their overlords, true. What they did have however is disdain towards foreigners. Chinese had had, by Mongol conquest, a long history of being ruled by foreigners, and accepted Mongols relatively easily, especially since they were already ruled by a foreign dynasty - which was quite despised - at the time of the conquest. Europeans... didn't. They chose resistance over submission basically every time, so Mongols didn't have a necessary pool of recruits to provide them with siege knowledge.

True.

I doubt there will be any, unless Martin has screwed up. Engineers were never slaves. Maybe among the Unsullied, though.

Likely, she will have to rely on Westerosi allies.

Id say the previous invasion being more of a raid hurt any chance of that improving plus the more they failed vs stone the more tbey raided the countryside(and thus civilians) which was a self defeating loop of pissing off the people you need to recruit

 

Dunno martins slavers.bay seems to be diffetrnt to real history in that it puts almost all non  outsiders as either non-working slave owners or slaves with nothing else , volantis had a strict  tatoo caste system, the rest may have something less formal but still with 'levels' (for want of a better word) of slavery! Ie soilders ,engineers ,healers and other  high skills slaves probably living better than most free serfs and menial labour ones still in back breaking  squalor.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:41 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Kinda like how Hungarians love naming their sons Atilla because, in for a stag in for a dragon, Huns are actually the ancestors of the Hungarians! See, Hun Hun garian, the math checks out! But of course the Magyars are as Hunnish as they are Mongolian, however on the other hand, Atilla is a badass name and the castles of Hungary are very majestic looking so who the hell really cares lol?

It's just steppe tradition to claim descent from Attila and later on Genghis Khan. Kinda like claiming you are descended from Charles Martell, Ragnar Lothbrok etc. it's sort of a "divine right to rule". During a time when Ottoman empire had just one or two male members left, Girayids (rulers of Crimean Khanate which was a vassal state of Ottoman's) were designated as heirs despite not being related at all (Suleiman the Magnificent's mother may have been a Girayid but that's about it) mostly because Girayids were descended from Genghis Khan.

Bulgars (ruling elite) on the other hand may indeed have descended from Attila.

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The Narrow Sea is easy enough to cross so much so that a steady supply of ships can transport all of the provisions needed by the Khaleesi for her military campaign.  Food will be scarce in Westeros, most of the population will have succumbed to starvation already, and the resistance will be feable. 

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Kinda like claiming you are descended from Charles Martell, Ragnar Lothbrok etc.

I am claiming descent from Harold Godwinson, Widukind, Arminius, Genghis Khan and Queen Scota (see here Scota - Wikipedia) and no one will stop me!!!

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

all of the provisions needed

Where are these provisions coming from?

1 minute ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Food will be scarce in Westeros, most of the population will have succumbed to starvation already, and the resistance will be feable. 

Since the option is fight or die people will chose to fight. Also Daenerys and her armies will starve alongside everyone else since you have not established where exactly she is getting these provisions from.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am claiming descent from Harold Godwinson, Widukind, Arminius, Genghis Khan and Queen Scota (see here Scota - Wikipedia) and no one will stop me!!!

Did you know, Harold Godwinson may have actually descended from House of Wessex from the line of Ethelred, Alfred the Great's elder brother? So he was the rightful king of England. 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where are these provisions coming from?

Since the option is fight or die people will chose to fight. Also Daenerys and her armies will starve alongside everyone else since you have not established where exactly she is getting these provisions from.

I think all  what if danys invasion threads should include the disclaimer that jonny boy has fulfiled his.role and ended the threat of the others thus ending the long winters before she arrives, probably ending this winter too until a year or so.

That said  that def wont happen, i feel.grmms long detailed descriptions of bountys of food are there to stand in contrast to whats to come!!

[Corvo the Crow]

56 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

I think all  what if danys invasion threads should include the disclaimer that jonny boy has fulfiled his.role and ended the threat of the others thus ending the long winters before she arrives, probably ending this winter too until a year or so.

 

Jon should use diplomacy when treating with Others as he's done with the Wildlings and get Others' help against the foreign invader that is Daenerys. 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Aldarion said:

They didn't have special loyalty to their overlords, true. What they did have however is disdain towards foreigners. Chinese had had, by Mongol conquest, a long history of being ruled by foreigners, and accepted Mongols relatively easily, especially since they were already ruled by a foreign dynasty - which was quite despised - at the time of the conquest. Europeans... didn't. They chose resistance over submission basically every time, so Mongols didn't have a necessary pool of recruits to provide them with siege knowledge.

True.

I doubt there will be any, unless Martin has screwed up. Engineers were never slaves. Maybe among the Unsullied, though.

Likely, she will have to rely on Westerosi allies.

There are probably people who understand siege technology among the sellswords.  And some of the slavers would likely trade their skills in return for their lives.

For that matter, Barristan and Tyrion would understand siegecraft.

As you say, the Mongols were hugely aided by the fact that the Caliph, the Jin, and Mohammed Shah were all at odds with their subjects.

[astarkchoice]

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon should use diplomacy when treating with Others as he's done with the Wildlings and get Others' help against the foreign invader that is Daenerys. 

Fire vs ice ...poke ..e ...mon!!!!

[Moiraine Sedai]

Food, weapon, horses, siege machines, and treasures from the masters will accompany the Targaryen liberation forces when Daenerys gives the order to begin the journey to her kingdom.  The Dothraki will have support from The Unsullied and the Free People’s Army. No army in Westeros can resist for long. It’s not a question of fighting a long campaign because Westeros is already very weak. Winter will weaken Westeros further. I look forward to Manderly, Baratheon, Arryn, Stark, and Tully getting further diminished. I want those who were the Usurper’s dogs to look like they’ve been living on rat stew and bird droppings for a year kind of skinny.  
 

 

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say the previous invasion being more of a raid hurt any chance of that improving plus the more they failed vs stone the more tbey raided the countryside(and thus civilians) which was a self defeating loop of pissing off the people you need to recruit

 

I'm not so certain it was a raid. Contemporary sources - both European and Mongol ones - certainly didn't consider it a raid. It seems that the narrative of the 1241. invasion being merely a raid is later Mongol propaganda to justify their failure.

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Dunno martins slavers.bay seems to be diffetrnt to real history in that it puts almost all non  outsiders as either non-working slave owners or slaves with nothing else , volantis had a strict  tatoo caste system, the rest may have something less formal but still with 'levels' (for want of a better word) of slavery! Ie soilders ,engineers ,healers and other  high skills slaves probably living better than most free serfs and menial labour ones still in back breaking  squalor.

Thing is that Martin doesn't really understand finer points of history, so it is difficult to use history to predict what he will do next.

For example, yes, there were slave soldiers: Mamluks, Janissaries, and some others. But they were never marched under whips, they were never sold abroad, and had a very high status. In some cases (Janissaries), they even took the government. Unsullied are a combination of worst tropes about Spartans and worst tropes about slave soldiers, a combination that simply doesn't work if given any thought at all. So I'm rather worried about how Martin will balance the mess he made of Essosi armies to relatively well done Westerosi forces.

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are probably people who understand siege technology among the sellswords.  And some of the slavers would likely trade their skills in return for their lives.

For that matter, Barristan and Tyrion would understand siegecraft.

As you say, the Mongols were hugely aided by the fact that the Caliph, the Jin, and Mohammed Shah were all at odds with their subjects.

Last paragraph is why I'd say that success of Daenerys' invasion will depend on support in Westeros.

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Food, weapon, horses, siege machines, and treasures from the masters will accompany the Targaryen liberation forces when Daenerys gives the order to begin the journey to her kingdom.  The Dothraki will have support from The Unsullied and the Free People’s Army. No army in Westeros can resist for long. It’s not a question of fighting a long campaign because Westeros is already very weak. Winter will weaken Westeros further. I look forward to Manderly, Baratheon, Arryn, Stark, and Tully getting further diminished. I want those who were the Usurper’s dogs to look like they’ve been living on rat stew and bird droppings for a year kind of skinny.  
 

 

No army in westeros can resist

Lets see drogos horde was 40k warriors ,100k in total as that was most of the dothraki. 9k unsullied (assuming 0 losses at mereen) maybe another 9k freedmen.

So about 60k at most...yeah the reach alone has more