Is Dany a White Savior?

[The Bard of Banefort]

By real-world standards, without question. She is the proverbial white savior, especially in the show, where no one working on GOT seemed to think there was anything questionable about a white girl crowd surfing on a sea of brown people (not to mention the multiple scenes of brown people bowing down to her naked body).

Within the world of ASOIAF, probably not, because ethnicity is more significant than race in this world, and slavery is multi-ethnic. (The showrunners leaned into the American understanding of slavery, where everyone is dark-skinned).

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

I’m thinking more of the case where one person gets overthrown in favour of another.  Had Daenerys been overthrown in favour of Jon, it would be a choice between “her death or her revenge.”

The realistic depiction of women in power went down the toilet for the ASoIaF setting when the show had Cersei rule as a queen regnant. She cannot and will not possibly do that in ASoIaF.

With the books, though, we will have Aegon vs. Dany and not Jon vs. Dany, and we should have most of the people leaning towards the real dragon queen with actual dragons who birthed them rather than the fake dragonless dragon king. These people submit to power - which is why they fell over themselves to worship Aegon the Conqueror - and Aegon has none of that.

Jon Snow also had none of that, either ... which is why his plotline in the show makes absolutely no sense.

And in the books - any attempt to do away with feudalism, to strengthen central rule, to force something like Egg's reforms through - will be a good thing. As would, say, the summary execution and eradication of House Lannister, say. Most of them suck and they clearly are too wealthy and too powerful for a monarch to sit safely on his throne.

Even a more extreme take - say, the culling of half of Westeros' nobility to show that a new era has begun - wouldn't concern me all that much. And one would argue that most of the enlightened in-universe folks wouldn't have that much of a problem with that. Especially if everybody realized that the petty ambitions and schemes of the lords were what allowed the Others to nearly kill everybody.

In that sense it is quite obvious that the entire narrative of the later seasons of GoT go against the book setting.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Untangling the Meereenese Knot, Part I: Who Poisoned the Locusts? | The Meereenese Blot (wordpress.com)

Relevant to this discussion, is Adam Feldman's essays on Meereen.  I cannot overstate how wrong I consider his take on the Meereenese storyline to be.  Errors include:-

1. The violence committed by the Sons of the Harpy was in retaliation for the crucifixion of 163 slave owners. No, the Great Masters crucified 163 children before Daenerys arrived at Meereen.  The Harpies are doing what the slavers have been doing for centuries.  They also target the freedmen, rather than Daenerys herself.

2.  The Harpies' violence is understandable because Daenerys "destroyed their way of life."  In fact, she let the masters off lightly.  Most of them survived, with their wealth, lands, and ships intact.  She listens to their grievances, and appoints some of them to her council.

3.  The peace was real.  But, an armada of ships is coming from Volantis, and according to Tyrion, most of the Yunkish lords are waiting for them to turn up, and will then attack the city.  No sooner does Dany open the fighting pits, then Hizdahr is trying to feed Tyrion and Penny to lions.

4.  The peace was fair.  A peace which makes a slaver King consort, allows them to reopen the fighting pits, and to resume slaving everywhere other than Meereenese territory is not remotely fair. Not that they even adhere to it, for they open a slave market outside the city.

5. Peace, however unjust, is always better than war, however just.  At this point, we're veering into the argument that anyone who is subject to gross injustice should just suck it up, until the perpetrators of injustice decide to change their ways.

6.  The Green Grace is an honest broker.  In the eyes of most readers, she's a self-serving terrorist.  Most readers are right.

7.  The interests of the slaves and freedmen are simply ignored by Feldman, during the course of these essays.  Daenerys' record as a ruler depends upon how successfully she appeases the elite.

8.  She has to choose between being "mother", favouring peace or "dragon" favouring war.  That is a false choice.  A good ruler, like Jaehaerys I, is both.  

9.  Resuming war against the slavers, is a turn to "darkness".  IMHO, it's a moral imperative.

10.  The slavers have made many concessions.  What concessions, exactly?  At the start of ADWD, slavery was theoretically illegal in Slavers Bay, Hizdahr was petitioning to reopen the fighting pits, which were closed.  By the end, slaving has resumed outside Meereen, there's a massive army camped outside the city (albeit, dying of dysentry), Hizdahr was made king consort, and the fighting pits reopened.  There's reason to believe that the slavers will be destroyed in the coming battle, but that is the very opposite of what Feldman advocates.

The worst part about those essays is the silly speculation as to who actually tried to poison Daenerys.

If you want to parallel Dany to anyone she very much acts and behaves like her ancestor, King Aenys, in ADwD. Aenys is afraid of dragon battles, too, since his mother Rhaenys died with Meraxes in Dorne. Aenys had his mother, Dany had the Hazzea thing. Like Aenys, Dany wants to be a just queen to all who is loved for what she does. She craves praise because she is at a point in her life where she tries to rule for her people - and she includes the former slavers into those people just as she does the freedmen. Her desire there is so great that she doesn't realize that the Ghiscari don't love her and never will love her - they only tolerate her as long as she appears more like Maegor than Aenys.

Reznak, the Green Grace, Hizdahr, and the Yunkai'i all slowly but surely turn Dany into their little pawn. They exploit her fears and desires both, and especially the Green Grace is very good at that. In the end they have her effectively betray everything she has accomplished so far. And this extends to both public and private life - they do not only ruin her anti-slavery politics but also her romance with Daario.

In the end there is nearly nothing left of her, and she would have disappeared even if they hadn't poisoned her.

And as you say there - George really showed with Jaehaerys I in FaB how a proper monarch acts. Not like some weak would-be moderator as the Conciliator name indicated, but a guy who very much establishes that he has the means and the strength of character to unleash his dragons if he has to ... but prefers not doing this unless he has to.

Dany is not yet at that point - and that's not a surprise since, so far, she hasn't done anything with dragons. She hasn't be a dragonrider and has effectively only ever done extreme things when she felt she had no other choice at all.

[SeanF]

@Lord VarysIt’s long past time to take the gloves off.  The Shavepate is an unpleasant man, but he’s quite clear-sighted about that, and Barristan was right to launch his coup d’etat.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

@Lord VarysIt’s long past time to take the gloves off.  The Shavepate is an unpleasant man, but he’s quite clear-sighted about that, and Barristan was right to launch his coup d’etat.

I mean, with the poison it is so clear that Hizdahr was in on it. George even gives us his favorite dish earlier, telling us that he likes spicy food, and then his excuse to Barristan as to why he didn't taste the locusts was that hot spices don't agree with him.

Now, chances are that the folks behind the poisoning attempt at the pit opening were not so much Hizdahr and the Green Grace but Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, Yezzan zo Qagaz and the other top leaders of the Yunkai'i. They did not only want to see a show of blood in the pit, but also be right there and watch Daenerys Targaryen dying in front of them.

That would have been one of their conditions to agree to a peace.

In context, though, it is not very likely that Dany will ever get the opportunity to take off any gloves in Slaver's Bay. Her people and (future) allies will have to deal with the Meereenese old guard and the Yunkish allies both. She is not going to make it back in time to do that all by herself.

If Barristan has his way they might keep Hizdahr alive for Dany to execute him ... but they should figure out he was involved long before she returns.

[Aldarion]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, with the poison it is so clear that Hizdahr was in on it. George even give us his favorite dish earlier, telling us that he likes spicy food, and then his excuse to Barristan as to why he didn't taste the locusts was that hot spices don't agree with him.

Now, chances are that the folks behind the poisoning attempt at the pit opening were not so much Hizdahr and the Green Grace but Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, Yezzan zo Qagaz and the other top leaders of the Yunkai'i. They did not only want to see a show of blood in the pit, but also be right there and watch Daenerys Targaryen dying in front of them.

That would have been one of their conditions to agree to a peace.

In context, though, it is not very likely that Dany will ever get the opportunity to take off any gloves in Slaver's Bay. Her people and (future) allies will have to deal with the Meereenese old guard and the Yunkish allies both. She is not going to make it back in time to do that all by herself.

If Barristan has his way they might keep Hizdahr alive for Dany to execute him ... but they should figure out he was involved long before she returns.

Problem with poison is that Belwas ate the whole damned plate of these things and didn't die. So was the aim truly to kill her? I'm not so sure.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Problem with poison is that Belwas ate the whole damned plate of these things and didn't die. So was the aim truly to kill her? I'm not so sure.

OTOH, he threw it all up.  He may have been saved by his greed.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Problem with poison is that Belwas ate the whole damned plate of these things and didn't die. So was the aim truly to kill her? I'm not so sure.

I think SB was the target, either to kill or temporarily incapacitate, because someone was trying to rig the games.

[BlackLightning]

You can disagree with Dany's methods. I don't like all of them either.

But the fact that you have more than just a few people supporting the slaver elite in Essos and saying that the peace created in Meereen was legit is the reason why the world we live in is as messed up as it is.

It's both disappointing and hilarious.

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The realistic depiction of women in power went down the toilet for the ASoIaF setting when the show had Cersei rule as a queen regnant. She cannot and will not possibly do that in ASoIaF.

Agreed.

Myrcella could be a queen regnant. As could Daenerys. Even Sansa and Arya stand a greater chance of becoming queens regnant of the 7K than Cersei.

And even if somehow Cersei manages to position herself as the ruling Queen of Westeros and not be immediately cast aside, she would only be queen regnant of the Red Keep.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

With the books, though, we will have Aegon vs. Dany and not Jon vs. Dany, and we should have most of the people leaning towards the real dragon queen with actual dragons who birthed them rather than the fake dragonless dragon king. These people submit to power - which is why they fell over themselves to worship Aegon the Conqueror - and Aegon has none of that.

Yes. But keep in mind that Aegon has the advantage of being male, of having an existing Westerosi support system (i.e., Dorne), and of playing a defensive position.

No matter what type of government or political system you have, it is very difficult to remove an incumbent ruler. Especially if you have to engage in amphibious warfare to do so.

Look at the Russo-Ukranian War. Russia has the more superior fighting force and Ukraine has been bombed and stormed to pieces, but Zelensky is still out there leading the charge and continuing to defy his Russian enemies.

Plus, if you look at it a certain way, Aegon's inexperience works in his favor. Daenerys is a known entity who has made her fair share of mistakes and enemies. These enemies, like all people, talk. So, while the mistakes that Dany has made are or will be common knowledge that can and will be used against her, you can't say that about Aegon. Aegon simply hasn't made that many mistakes because he hasn't done anything. Yet.

 

[illrede]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think SB was the target, either to kill or temporarily incapacitate, because someone was trying to rig the games.

You do not bring poison into a monarch's presence to rig games. If discovered, you are dead even if you did not intend to poison the actual monarch. The act has a weight that must be understood. It is not a stiletto, it is a truck bomb.

[BlackLightning]

29 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Problem with poison is that Belwas ate the whole damned plate of these things and didn't die. So was the aim truly to kill her? I'm not so sure.

Belwas is three or four times the size of Daenerys.

And he was sick as a dog. Like for real...the man was fighting for his life.

Those locusts would have killed Daenerys.

You want to know the most basic principle of toxicology and one of the most basic principles in all of medicine? The dose makes the poison.

It is not necessarily a case of what but a case of how much.

Case in point: the same amount of liquor that will get a 200 pound, 35-year-old man blackout-drunk will kill a 60 pound, 5-year-old boy.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, illrede said:

You do not bring poison into a monarch's presence to rig games.

Well they weren't supposed to be for Daenerys. They were for SB or Hizdahr. Because it doesn't make sense that someone would try to poison Daenerys through a food she doesn't like at all. And the dose was much in excess if she was the target. The only other person who seems to like them is Hizdahr. So both Hizdahr and SB are more likely targets then Daenerys.

[illrede]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Now, chances are that the folks behind the poisoning attempt at the pit opening were not so much Hizdahr and the Green Grace but Yurkhaz zo Yunzak, Yezzan zo Qagaz and the other top leaders of the Yunkai'i. They did not only want to see a show of blood in the pit, but also be right there and watch Daenerys Targaryen dying in front of them.

That would have been one of their conditions to agree to a peace.

Now that rings true. "This agreement isn't safe/reliable if this VIP is alive, end that problem as a precondition", has precedent.

[illrede]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Well they weren't supposed to be in Daenerys' presence. They were for SB or Hizdahr. Because it doesn't make sense that someone would try to poison Daenerys through a food she doesn't like at all. The only other person who seems to like them is Hizdahr. So both Hizdahr and SB are more likely targets then Daenerys.

"On or within twenty yards" definition of presence. Just the rumor of it... long story short the Habsburgs got a windfall in half a century of effective foreign policy and transfer of power once on account of it (Prinz Eugen's mom).

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, illrede said:

Now that rings true. "This agreement isn't safe/reliable if this VIP is alive, end that problem as a precondition", has precedent.

It's giving mafia.

Literally sounds like a plotline in an episode of Breaking Bad or The Sopranos.

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well they weren't supposed to be for Daenerys. They were for SB or Hizdahr. Because it doesn't make sense that someone would try to poison Daenerys through a food she doesn't like at all. The only other person who seems to like them is Hizdahr. So both Hizdahr and SB are more likely targets then Daenerys.

But Hizdahr likes both locusts and spicy food...so why did he not eat them? Why did he keep asking Daenerys if she wanted any after she made it clear that she has no appetite and she doesn't like locusts even when she has an appetite? Moreover, why did he tell Barristan he doesn't like spicy food when we clearly know that he does.

 

[illrede]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

Mafia

Ferdinand of Aragon, actually. But a Mafia Don has nothing on that guy.

[the trees have eyes]

20 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

It's not about the events: it's about the perspective of the narrative. Dune is mostly from white Paul Atreides' perspective on saving the Fremen (a deconstruction of the white savior trope that I would liken to Dany). Avatar is from the white character who is saving the people of color's POV. Dany is the POV character of Dany's saving of the Slaver's Bay slaves. She is white. Dany is a white savior narrative. If you don't think she's white, like @BlackLightning, that is ok. If you don't think that a white savior narrative is when a white person saves people of color and the story is told from their perspective, that is also ok. But if you think both those things (which I think I reasonably do), then Dany's a white savior. The regime change/reconstruction question is a couple layers on top of the fundamental critique, though I still think it's largely valid.

So, Dune.  I've only seen the film but the Fremen didn't look any different to Paul Atreides / Kyle McLachlan to me.  Maybe there are calls to boycott that as well as Avatar?

And the comment about terrorist states was limited to the Iraq War (although you do reference Central America) so not about literary tropes.

The issue with framing this as one of the perspective of the narrative is this isn't social commentary it's a character-driven limited-pov fantasy series.  It's our characters who shed light on the suffering of the smallfolk of the Riverlands or the starving masses in King's Landing, not those smallfolk themselves.  Brienne gets an exposition on the horrors of war (Arya views it in detail first hand) and Dany gets an exposition on the training of the Unsullied, rather than us getting Grey Worm povs.  I have seen criticisms of GRRM for having povs limited to the upper class but in general people are happy to let him create the characters he wants to tell the story he wants.  But then we have Dany's arc in Meereen....  I do think she's "white" but not in the sense that that carries any meaning with it in this fantasy setting where the Valyrians were the superpower of the Day aka Egypt or Assyria rather than Bourbon France.  If that's the fundamental critique, and I'm not sure you're positing that rather than framing the premise of the thread, then I don't agree.  And that's my problem with this lens through which we are invited to view, critique and dismiss creative writing: it's formulaic and restrictive and gives a stick to beat the author / director with if they run afoul of it.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, the trees have eyes said:

I've only seen the film but the Fremen didn't look any different to Paul Atreides / Kyle McLachlan to me.  Maybe there are calls to boycott that as well as Avatar?

Have you seen the new one? I prefer the old one but it was fun to watch the new one as well.

[GZ Bloodraven]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But what is the point of bringing up the concept of a white savior.

Because, when viewing Dany's story through that lens, we can better understand what she is missing when successfully (or unsuccessfully) ruling Meereen after she goes back to Westeros. How does one with a limited perspective such as Dany rule three previously slave cities and Westeros? Does she not? Is there a way to do regime change and reconstruction successfully? All questions George seems to be aiming to answer: there are definitely vindictive people bringing up "white savior" as a dig on the character and the author, but I think recognizing Dany as a white savior narrative actually adds more to the understanding of her story and her world.

[GZ Bloodraven]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The issue with framing this as one of the perspective of the narrative is this isn't social commentary it's a character-driven limited-pov fantasy series.  It's our characters who shed light on the suffering of the smallfolk of the Riverlands or the starving masses in King's Landing, not those smallfolk themselves.  Brienne gets an exposition on the horrors of war (Arya views it in detail first hand) and Dany gets an exposition on the training of the Unsullied, rather than us getting Grey Worm povs.  I have seen criticisms of GRRM for having povs limited to the upper class but in general people are happy to let him create the characters he wants to tell the story he wants.  But then we have Dany's arc in Meereen....  I do think she's "white" but not in the sense that that carries any meaning with it in this fantasy setting where the Valyrians were the superpower of the Day aka Egypt or Assyria rather than Bourbon France.  If that's the fundamental critique, and I'm not sure you're positing that rather than framing the premise of the thread, then I don't agree.  And that's my problem with this lens through which we are invited to view, critique and dismiss creative writing: it's formulaic and restrictive and gives a stick to beat the author / director with if they run afoul of it.

Just saw this, sorry for the spam. There's a video that I think Just Write did about sociological storytelling vs. individual storytelling. George is doing both. We are learning about a fictional culture heavily inspired by our own history through character-driven limited-povs. I agree that she isn't white in the fictional world, but in our world, she is, and through our lens of analysis, we can recognize that she's a white savior. I think the usual understanding of white savior story = bad is too simplistic for the analysis of Dany as a white savior. There are definitely white savior narratives that promote orientalism / lack empathy, but George's is not one of those. I think I am framing the premise of the thread by recognizing that a. Dany is a white savior and b. that George is saying interesting things about white savior narratives by having her be one.

[Aldarion]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Belwas is three or four times the size of Daenerys.

And he was sick as a dog. Like for real...the man was fighting for his life.

Those locusts would have killed Daenerys.

You want to know the most basic principle of toxicology and one of the most basic principles in all of medicine? The dose makes the poison.

It is not necessarily a case of what but a case of how much.

Case in point: the same amount of liquor that will get a 200 pound, 35-year-old man blackout-drunk will kill a 60 pound, 5-year-old boy.

Precisely my point. Belwas ate the whole damn plate. Would Daenerys have eaten everything? I doubt it. How could they have known she would have liked the locusts enough to eat the amount that would have caused her to ingest the lethal dose of poison?

Any halfway competent poisoners would have made sure that any single locust had the lethal dose... unless, of course, the aim was to make her sick but not die.