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Is Dany a White Savior?


Corvo the Crow
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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A white savior narrative only works in a setting where the reader/viewer can actually show that the setting as such presents cultural and racial hierarchies, portrays an or multiple culture(s), people(s), or groups as such in need of being saved by somebody from another, more advanced culture/people/race. And even then I'd say this is only problematic if the narrative twists 'inferior' cultures in a clichéd and wrong way. A mere imbalance of power resulting in a more powerful person ending or trying to end a wrong in less powerful, less advanced society is not in itself problematic.

And that simply isn't the case in ASoIaF.

I just don't agree with this. I think we can recognize that the pale whiteness of Daenerys is an analogue for white people, and that the amber skin of the Ghiscari is an analogue for probably Egyptian people, what with the pyramids. Again, I'm not even saying that Dany being a white savior is problematic, I'm just saying that her narrative is a white savior narrative: a white woman saving POC people, emphasizing the white woman's personal growth from the action. That's just what's happening: I'm probably not going to convince you that Dany is white, but that's another story.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In ADwD we might not get a freedman POV, but Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, and Tyrion do not just give us their perspective on things. Through their eyes we do see the opinions and issues and emotions of the other characters.

In The Help, we see Viola Davis' character through Emma Stone's character's eyes: but it is still the white woman telling the POC stories. In Dune, we see the Fremen through Paul's eyes: but it is still the white man's story. Again, this is OK, especially in the case of Dune and ASOIAF where the limited narrative and short-sightedness of the characters is the point, but it is happening.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You keep hammering these nails but I do find them misplaced.  Why should the Unsullied be the POV of their liberation any more than the Wildlings be the POV of their desperate attempt to flee south or the Smallfolk of the Riverlands the POV of their desperate struggle for survival?  This is character driven story telling and the author follows his own characters.  You are creating rules for the author to follow based on misplaced racial projections into his work of art.  We see all these groups suffer but we never get POVs from them because that's not the author's technique.  Instead we see their misery reflected through our characters' eyes.  If you are okay with not knowing how the Smallfolk of the Riverlands or The Wildlings felt first hand then I would hope you would be okay with not knowing how the people of Slaver's Bay felt first hand.  But if you stick a POC / white saviour label on it you politicise art say there are different rules for different parts of the author's story or there are boxes he must tick.  In real world social commentary this is absolutely reasonable and perhaps in fiction writing too but to try and impose it in fantasy writing when the author has himself deliberately muddied the racial / cultural groups to prevent this sort of reaction then l do find it misplaced.

I'm not saying they should be, I'm just saying they aren't, which it seems like you agree with. The story is a character driven story, and the story of the amber-skinned Ghiscari slaves being saved is from the perspective of...the white woman. That's, again, just what is happening and I am, again, saying that I don't think this is necessarily bad. It just is. I'm not projecting racial stuff onto his world, he already has it in there, the Valyrians are explicitly defined by their pale white skin color, and there is racism and xenophobia laced throughout his story and world. It's already there. 

I understand it's not the author's technique, and that is OK, but he has created a white savior narrative. If the Riverlands smallfolk or the wildlings were amber-skinned, and Jon or, like, Brienne or someone idk, went around saving them and that story was told only from their perspective and how it affects their character arc and their growth, that would also be a white savior narrative. To notice racial elements in a work of fiction is not politicizing an already notably politicized piece of art. I understand the apprehension because of the fantasy world, but I just don't think that sufficiently absolves him of understanding that its totally reasonable to read Dany's arc as a white savior narrative. If he doesn't think that's what he is doing, that's OK, but it really looks like what he's doing is messing with the idea of messiah complexes, reconstruction after regime change, imperialism and trauma, the absurd evil of slavery AND the white savior narrative trope when he writes Daenerys.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Why?  Saving people does not carry racial connotations.  The Messiah was the saviour of his own people, not someone who assumed racial superiority to others.

It's not about the recognition that those you are saving are a different race than you (although there is often an orientalist appreciation by the white savior for the people they are saving). I do think one of the reasons Dany's story is a good white savior narrative is because she doesn't comment on the culture of the people's she's saving, focusing on the abolition of slavery instead. It makes it much more compelling.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yeah, I don't think that because I think you are mischaracterising her arc.  The young blundering hero is exactly what she is and how much GRRM intends to play on that or deconstruct is tbd. Since we have only had Slaver's Bay / Meereen for twenty years I guess I can see why you could reduce her to this or pigeonhole her purpose as to critique western imperialism or ideas of cultural hegemony this way but it's really off the mark.  The problems of regime change, shifting balances of power and the acceptance of an outsider who is also a forward looking reformer are the themes he plays with in both Dany and Jon's povs (Tyrion's too to an extent).  But breaking this down to a white saviour of POC - despite the author's story-telling technique and the jumbled world he's created - and then critiquing the absence of certain narrative perspectives just seems a to create an artificial stick to beat him with, however lightly.

If you think I should share your assessment and join in your labelling and pigeonholing then I'm ok with disagreeing whether you consider that ignorant or blind.

She's both the young blundering hero and a white savior. I'm not critiquing the absence of other POC POVs, I'm just observing that they are absent. That is OK, and actually required for us to focus in on Dany's perspective: having multiple perspectives would open her up for a much greater critique that would shift the audience's perspective on her, I think. But I don't think it's pigeonhole-ing to recognize a narrative trope that is occurring in a story you are reading. And I do think it's ignorant to dismiss the critique, but I probably can't move you into thinking that Dany is white if you don't think she's white.

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6 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I just don't agree with this. I think we can recognize that the pale whiteness of Daenerys is an analogue for white people, and that the amber skin of the Ghiscari is an analogue for probably Egyptian people, what with the pyramids. Again, I'm not even saying that Dany being a white savior is problematic, I'm just saying that her narrative is a white savior narrative: a white woman saving POC people, emphasizing the white woman's personal growth from the action. That's just what's happening: I'm probably not going to convince you that Dany is white, but that's another story.

Dany's skin is actually so 'white' that the wineseller in Vaes Dothrak thought her to be Dothraki by birth, not Daenerys Targaryen.

The idea that the slaves are POC who are helped by Daenerys is also a stretch. They are not racialized slaves. Slavery is effectively a universal practice in Martinworld (Westeros and Braavos seem to be the only exceptions), and being enslaved is something that can happen to anyone. Their masters are Ghiscari, not they themselves. And the Ghiscari aren't some kind of primitive or lesser culture, either. They are the Valyrianized former masters of the known world.

6 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

In The Help, we see Viola Davis' character through Emma Stone's character's eyes: but it is still the white woman telling the POC stories. In Dune, we see the Fremen through Paul's eyes: but it is still the white man's story. Again, this is OK, especially in the case of Dune and ASOIAF where the limited narrative and short-sightedness of the characters is the point, but it is happening.

I haven't watched that movie, but Dany's story is not the story of a privileged woman whose view is broadened because she befriends an outsider and sees the world through their eyes, etc. Daenerys grew up in Essos and effectively sold like a chattel slave to Khal Drogo and never needed some poor POC slave woman help her see that slavery sucked. All she needed was to see it once. She doesn't need her Dothraki girls or Doreah tell her that slavery sucks, doesn't believe it was okay before she got some special insight she as a privileged woman (which she never was) never had.

The Fremen are not POC and Paul Atreides isn't white, either. I mean, seriously - Dune takes place in a distant future where the human space empire is run by an oligarchy of feudal noble houses. If anything, the societal matrix there is Imperial family > great houses > smaller houses > rabble. Ethnicity, race, religion, etc. aren't important categories - at least until the mad Fremen Djihad drowns the universe in blood. But even then it is clear that religion has a monstrous effect on politics and vice versa.

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I haven't watched that movie, but Dany's story is not the story of a privileged woman whose view is broadened because she befriends an outsider and sees the world through their eyes, etc. Daenerys grew up in Essos and effectively sold like a chattel slave to Khal Drogo and never needed some poor POC slave woman help her see that slavery sucked. All she needed was to see it once. She doesn't need her Dothraki girls or Doreah tell her that slavery sucks, doesn't believe it was okay before she got some special insight she as a privileged woman (which she never was) never had.

The Fremen are not POC and Paul Atreides isn't white, either. I mean, seriously - Dune takes place in a distant future where the human space empire is run by an oligarchy of feudal noble houses. If anything, the societal matrix there is Imperial family > great houses > smaller houses > rabble. Ethnicity, race, religion, etc. aren't important categories - at least until the mad Fremen Djihad drowns the universe in blood. But even then it is clear that religion has a monstrous effect on politics and vice versa.

But the character arc surrounding the liberation of the slaves is given to Daenerys, not to the people she is freeing. And obviously Dany recognizes the horrors of slavery early on, but the "saving" of the slaves is still told from her white perspective (not white in-universe, white in-our-universe).

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany's skin is actually so 'white' that the wineseller in Vaes Dothrak thought her to be Dothraki by birth, not Daenerys Targaryen.

The idea that the slaves are POC who are helped by Daenerys is also a stretch. They are not racialized slaves. Slavery is effectively a universal practice in Martinworld (Westeros and Braavos seem to be the only exceptions), and being enslaved is something that can happen to anyone. Their masters are Ghiscari, not they themselves. And the Ghiscari aren't some kind of primitive or lesser culture, either. They are the Valyrianized former masters of the known world.

Dany's pale white and has purple eyes. No way the assassin trying to kill her thought she was Dothraki.

I'd say most Ghiscari slaves are Ghiscari, Lhazareen, Dothraki, from the islands, or from Volantis. It is true not all slaves are POC in that sense, but most are POC or from POC-inspired cultures. 

 

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17 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I'm not saying they should be, I'm just saying they aren't, which it seems like you agree with. The story is a character driven story, and the story of the amber-skinned Ghiscari slaves being saved is from the perspective of...the white woman. That's, again, just what is happening and I am, again, saying that I don't think this is necessarily bad. It just is. I'm not projecting racial stuff onto his world, he already has it in there, the Valyrians are explicitly defined by their pale white skin color, and there is racism and xenophobia laced throughout his story and world. It's already there. 

Look, if you think something should be there but it isn't, then you mention that it isn't.  You don't repeatedly mention something isn't there if you don't think it needs to be.  The story is not actually the story of The Wildlings, The Smallfolk of The Riverlands or the myriad peoples the Ghiscari slavers (not slaves) have captured, bought or raised to be slaves, however much we might sympathise with them.  Our young teenage heroes / heroines are all on journeys of working out what the right thing to do is and how to do it in the teeth of opposition and unforeseen, often disastrous, developments.  If you can't read Dany's chapters without defaulting your mindset to seeing a carboard cut out of a "white" woman liberating "POC" then you are projecting things in story that politicise it.

17 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I understand it's not the author's technique, and that is OK, but he has created a white savior narrative. If the Riverlands smallfolk or the wildlings were amber-skinned, and Jon or, like, Brienne or someone idk, went around saving them and that story was told only from their perspective and how it affects their character arc and their growth, that would also be a white savior narrative. 

In other words it's not ok and wouldn't be ok.  I am sure you understand the focus of the story is the pov characters not the smallfolk and that all of the characters who get it right do so when they understand that standing up for and protecting the smallfolk or the downtrodden is the purpose of power (almost like a welfare state in a medieval setting, or at least the seed of the idea), whether peasant, slave or free folk.  It's mind-numbing to me to introduce this artificial distinction that because a group of people might be mischaracterised or generalised as POC then different story telling rules and reader responses apply.  This is pure projection of real world political issues in story.

17 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

To notice racial elements in a work of fiction is not politicizing an already notably politicized piece of art.

Books or Show?  Doesn't the "POC" angle come from the Show rather than the books?  I am reading High Fantasy in a Mediterranean setting in Dany's chapters not Political / Societal Commentary.  GRRM is not Noam Chomsky.  Like Avatar or Dune you can politicise art if you try but it's self-fulfilling to say a work is political while politicising it.

18 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

But I don't think it's pigeonhole-ing to recognize a narrative trope that is occurring in a story you are reading. And I do think it's ignorant to dismiss the critique,

A trope is simply a common story-telling element. It seems that being a white hero / heroine is almost enough to be deemed a white saviour if they don't "stay in their lane".  I reject both elements of that as the character should be free to "do the right thing" without people trying to parse their racial profile or the racial profile of the people they are interacting with to see if it's allowed.  If GRRM established wildling and Riverland smallfolk povs to show us what was happening through their eyes but neglected to in Essos then you might be able to highlight Dany but he's as true to his method with her as with every other character.  As it is I'm as dismayed by the white saviour talk as I was by the Mary Sue / Gary Stu stuff as with the terms used so broadly and in such an offhand fashion it just becomes a label and an easy stick or critique to reach for.

18 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I probably can't move you into thinking that Dany is white if you don't think she's white.

There is no relevance to her being white in story unless you put that millstone round her neck.  She does not think of herself as some "white" superior to the "POC" Dothraki / Qartheen / Meereenese, etc...  That's projection.

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1 hour ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

But the character arc surrounding the liberation of the slaves is given to Daenerys, not to the people she is freeing. And obviously Dany recognizes the horrors of slavery early on, but the "saving" of the slaves is still told from her white perspective (not white in-universe, white in-our-universe).

Yeah, it is her perspective - but hers is not a 'white' perspective but the perspective of a person who was effectively a slave, too. Dany was sold to Drogo and was effectively his property. Vice versa, the slaves of Slaver's Bay are not POC. They come in all races and colors as far as we know - what unites them as a group (if something unites them) is their shared experiences as slaves. Not their shared experiences as racialized slaves in the Americas.

I mean, slaves are marked by tattoos in Volantis, not by skin color. Everybody can be enslaved, just as everybody can be tattooed in the face.

You can say that it is the perspective of a noblewoman, a descendant of the Valyrian dragonlords. But again - everybody can be enslaved.

1 hour ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Dany's pale white and has purple eyes. No way the assassin trying to kill her thought she was Dothraki.

I give you the quote there:

Quote

Turning a corner, they came upon a wine merchant offering thimble-sized cups of his wares to the passersby. “Sweet reds,” he cried in fluent Dothraki, “I have sweet reds, from Lys and Volantis and the Arbor. Whites from Lys, Tyroshi pear brandy, firewine, pepperwine, the pale green nectars of Myr. Smokeberry browns and Andalish sours, I have them, I have them.” He was a small man, slender and handsome, his flaxen hair curled and perfumed after the fashion of Lys. When Dany paused before his stall, he bowed low. “A taste for the khaleesi? I have a sweet red from Dorne, my lady, it sings of plums and cherries and rich dark oak. A cask, a cup, a swallow? One taste, and you will name your child after me.”

Dany smiled. “My son has his name, but I will try your summerwine,” she said in Valyrian, Valyrian as they spoke it in the Free Cities. The words felt strange on her tongue, after so long. “Just a taste, if you would be so kind.”

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. “My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?”

“My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms,” Dany told him.

Doreah stepped up beside her. “You have the honor to address Daenerys of the House Targaryen, Daenerys Stormborn, khaleesi of the riding men and princess of the Seven Kingdoms.”

The wine merchant dropped to his knees. “Princess,” he said, bowing his head.

Pretty obvious that Dany is not perceived as an outsider/foreigner while living among the Dothraki - not even by people who look more like her.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

.

I give you the quote there:

Pretty obvious that Dany is not perceived as an outsider/foreigner while living among the Dothraki - not even by people who look more like her.

Actually, re-reading that now, it looks to me like Dany is flattering herself on her cultural assimilation rather than being genuinely mistaken for a Dothraki, and addressing her as "khaleesi" in this context is just standard salesman patter. 

Edited by Alester Florent
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10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Actually, re-reading that now, it looks to me like Dany is flattering herself on her cultural assimilation rather than being genuinely mistaken for a Dothraki, and addressing her as "khaleesi" in this context is just standard salesman patter. 

That seems wrong to me. The dude doesn't recognize her, clearly thinks she is Dothraki by birth and then he switches to Tyroshi because of her accent not her looks. Doreah has to tell him who Dany is and only then does he switch gears and brings the poisoned wine.

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8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Look, if you think something should be there but it isn't, then you mention that it isn't.  You don't repeatedly mention something isn't there if you don't think it needs to be.  The story is not actually the story of The Wildlings, The Smallfolk of The Riverlands or the myriad peoples the Ghiscari slavers (not slaves) have captured, bought or raised to be slaves, however much we might sympathise with them.  Our young teenage heroes / heroines are all on journeys of working out what the right thing to do is and how to do it in the teeth of opposition and unforeseen, often disastrous, developments.  If you can't read Dany's chapters without defaulting your mindset to seeing a carboard cut out of a "white" woman liberating "POC" then you are projecting things in story that politicise it.

I'm not defaulting to "white" woman liberating "POC," I'm just recognizing that it is there. That is a valid read. It is one of about a dozen that I'm reading. Layer of meaning upon layer of meaning, one of which being that we don't have a perspective from a POC slave Dany is freeing. I'm not saying we need that or should have that, I'm just saying we do not have that. Would the story be more interesting with a Grey Worm or Mossodor POV? Maybe. I don't know, we don't have one. 

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

In other words it's not ok and wouldn't be ok.  I am sure you understand the focus of the story is the pov characters not the smallfolk and that all of the characters who get it right do so when they understand that standing up for and protecting the smallfolk or the downtrodden is the purpose of power (almost like a welfare state in a medieval setting, or at least the seed of the idea), whether peasant, slave or free folk.  It's mind-numbing to me to introduce this artificial distinction that because a group of people might be mischaracterised or generalised as POC then different story telling rules and reader responses apply.  This is pure projection of real world political issues in story.

The focus of the story isn't on the smallfolk, but that leads to a white savior narrative, which, again, is ok. It is just what is happening. Unless you don't think the slaves are largely POC or that Dany isn't white, which, as I mentioned, I don't think I can convince you of (you've separated the fictional world from the real world so much that our racial conceptions disappeared: all to the good). 

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Books or Show?  Doesn't the "POC" angle come from the Show rather than the books?  I am reading High Fantasy in a Mediterranean setting in Dany's chapters not Political / Societal Commentary.  GRRM is not Noam Chomsky.  Like Avatar or Dune you can politicise art if you try but it's self-fulfilling to say a work is political while politicising it.

Both. I'm reading low fantasy in Egypt. GRRM is not Noam Chomsky, he understands linguistics and etymology significantly less, but he does have Noam Chomsky's politics for the most part, and is creating a very political piece of art about social systems and power and their notable pitfalls. Among other things.

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

A trope is simply a common story-telling element. It seems that being a white hero / heroine is almost enough to be deemed a white saviour if they don't "stay in their lane".  I reject both elements of that as the character should be free to "do the right thing" without people trying to parse their racial profile or the racial profile of the people they are interacting with to see if it's allowed.  If GRRM established wildling and Riverland smallfolk povs to show us what was happening through their eyes but neglected to in Essos then you might be able to highlight Dany but he's as true to his method with her as with every other character.  As it is I'm as dismayed by the white saviour talk as I was by the Mary Sue / Gary Stu stuff as with the terms used so broadly and in such an offhand fashion it just becomes a label and an easy stick or critique to reach for.

Being a white hero saving mostly POC people is...a white savior. I don't know if we have to attach the negative baggage that comes with the term: I have explicitly separated the negative aspects of the trope (orientalism, perpetuation of colonial logics because of authorial negligence or, worse, intent) because I do not think George plays into these negative aspects. But he does have a white woman saving a bunch of POC people. Like, very core, very literally, white savior. 

Mary Sue is different because most of the "perfect" protagonists that people label as a Mary Sue are, yes, untrained and unrealistically talented, but they are still deeply flawed people. Frankly that's why I don't think recognizing Daenerys as a white savior is inherently negative: her character and the reader are better informed about the narrative because of our limited perspective on just her view. 

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is no relevance to her being white in story unless you put that millstone round her neck.  She does not think of herself as some "white" superior to the "POC" Dothraki / Qartheen / Meereenese, etc...  That's projection.

I don't think and have not said that she thinks herself superior to the POC she surrounds herself with: but I do think that her narrative is a one-sided view of a mostly amber-skinned groups liberation from the perspective of their pale white liberator, who's actions serve to further her own story and character development. I think that's just an objective read unless you don't think she's Valyrian and don't think the slaves of the Ghiscari are mostly Ghiscari.

Edited by GZ Bloodraven
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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, it is her perspective - but hers is not a 'white' perspective but the perspective of a person who was effectively a slave, too. Dany was sold to Drogo and was effectively his property. Vice versa, the slaves of Slaver's Bay are not POC. They come in all races and colors as far as we know - what unites them as a group (if something unites them) is their shared experiences as slaves. Not their shared experiences as racialized slaves in the Americas.

She can be Valyrian and still have experienced Dothraki slavery. Just because the in-universe system is an unracialized slave owner-slave, that doesn't preclude Dany of being a white savior in-our-universe because she's still pale white and Ghiscari slaves are, again, mostly POC. I'm sure there are some Qartheen and Free City slaves, but on the whole I would assume that the Unsullied and the rest are Ghiscari, Dothraki, Lhazareen, and islander (Naathi, Summer Islander, Leng potentially, etc). 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems wrong to me. The dude doesn't recognize her, clearly thinks she is Dothraki by birth and then he switches to Tyroshi because of her accent not her looks. Doreah has to tell him who Dany is and only then does he switch gears and brings the poisoned wine.

The dude is trying to poison her and flatters her to get her attention; her skin is canonically pale white. Maybe she has a tan. 

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On 3/11/2023 at 1:38 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Firstly, for those who don't know what it is:

White savior - Wikipedia

She is white, whiter than white to the point of being whiter than your average white european, is delivered as a messianic figure, especially to people she liberated, liberates "people of color" (old gods I hate this, I'll say people of melanine advantage for them and melanine disadvantage for whites).

So Is Daenerys a white saviour? Pretty much confirms to the trope I think.

She is our protagonists but I don't see that as trope.  Dany is a unique hero.  She has a brilliant mind that those who have failed (failures like Robert B, Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, and Jon Snow) did not have.  She has an enviable heritage from her ancient ancestors, the monarchs of the Great Empire of the Dawn. 

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11 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

She can be Valyrian and still have experienced Dothraki slavery. Just because the in-universe system is an unracialized slave owner-slave, that doesn't preclude Dany of being a white savior in-our-universe because she's still pale white and Ghiscari slaves are, again, mostly POC. I'm sure there are some Qartheen and Free City slaves, but on the whole I would assume that the Unsullied and the rest are Ghiscari, Dothraki, Lhazareen, and islander (Naathi, Summer Islander, Leng potentially, etc). 

Even if we assume that a majority of the slaves in Slaver's Bay don't have light skin - that's not the same as them being POC. In Essos, slavery is common cultural practice, and they do enslave people rather than peoples. It is the case that the slavers view some people to be better slaves than others (the Naathi, Lhazareen) but that's like the Byzantines or Arabs viewing certain regions as the best places to capture slaves.

I mean, you do realize that the slave trade is very much in the hands of 'POC people' like the Ghiscari and the Corsairs from the Basilisk Isles (and then, of course there is also the slave trade in the far east).

The white savior narrative as such also only makes sense in a rather limited Anglo-American-European framework - namely in pictures and stories rekindling or referencing racist and colonial ideas. But they are most definitely not there in this setting.

And even on a metatextual level it is only there for the GoT adaptation, not the books. And if you read ADwD then the slavers in Meereen come across as refined and cultured and civilized people - Dany and her people are the foreigners and barbarians in Meereen. They don't have the moral highground with the likes of the Green Grace and Hizdahr.

11 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

The dude is trying to poison her and flatters her to get her attention; her skin is canonically pale white. Maybe she has a tan. 

Actually, if you read that passage it basically deconstructs the notion of race as a fixed thing. It is not. It is constructed. If the people in this world were even remotely thinking in racial categories something like that wouldn't have happened.

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On 4/1/2023 at 11:43 AM, Lord Varys said:

Even if we assume that a majority of the slaves in Slaver's Bay don't have light skin - that's not the same as them being POC. In Essos, slavery is common cultural practice, and they do enslave people rather than peoples. It is the case that the slavers view some people to be better slaves than others (the Naathi, Lhazareen) but that's like the Byzantines or Arabs viewing certain regions as the best places to capture slaves.

 

Yes, and it just so happens that those places correspond to in-our-universe POC people (and physically POC people in the show universe)

On 4/1/2023 at 11:43 AM, Lord Varys said:

And even on a metatextual level it is only there for the GoT adaptation, not the books. And if you read ADwD then the slavers in Meereen come across as refined and cultured and civilized people - Dany and her people are the foreigners and barbarians in Meereen. They don't have the moral highground with the likes of the Green Grace and Hizdahr.

The metatextual, it applies to the books which is why it's reflected in the show (it is definitely more emphasized in the show, but it is present in the books) And it doesn't matter what the race of the slavers are really: white savior's can liberate POC people from other POC people (in fact they often do), and the "refined" nature of the slavers (though I would argue slavery itself is damning of the "refined" label) doesn't change the fact that Dany is saving non-centered POC people. 

On 4/1/2023 at 11:43 AM, Lord Varys said:

The white savior narrative as such also only makes sense in a rather limited Anglo-American-European framework - namely in pictures and stories rekindling or referencing racist and colonial ideas. But they are most definitely not there in this setting.

This is largely true for harmful white savior narratives, but most white savior narratives in non-racialized fantasy are less harmful, like the one in ASOIAF. Because there isn't an explicit Anglo-American-Europen framework, George can play with the narrative trope more, which I think is of value. But I do recognize that he's playing with the trope, not denying its existence.

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