Is Dany a White Savior?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

I just showed you who were in the Plaza : Kraznys mo Nakloz and his fellow Good Masters, including Grazdan, other wellborn Astapori slavers, the slaves who serve the Good Masters and wellborn Astapori audience members, the mounted lancers who fight for the Good Masters, the 8,600 fully trained Unsullied, the 5,000 recruits in the process of training, and the uncut boys who haven’t been trained yet. There are also dead and dying slaves who have been flayed, racked, and hanged at the Plaza of Punishment. Are you suggesting that the unsullied went on rampage in all Astapor?

I am suggesting that all males over 12 wearing a tokar in Astapor were killed because those are the parameters Daenerys sets for the Unsullied. There is nothing about 'only kill people in the Plaza'. We know that Cleon used the male children of the elite to make faux unsullied. Seems to me like they were what remained of the male slaving elite in Astapor.

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am suggesting that all males over 12 wearing a tokar in Astapor were killed because those are the parameters Daenerys sets for the Unsullied. There is nothing about 'only kill people in the Plaza'. We know that Cleon used the male children of the elite to make faux unsullied. Seems to me like they were what remained of the male slaving elite in Astapor.

But why she cosiders a 16 y/o as "only a boy" then? It seems to me that the "harm no child under 12" was put only to showcase the youth of the protagonists and the fact that even if 16 y/o are only boys, they still fight wars and are put in adult situations. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

But why she cosiders a 16 y/o as "only a boy" then?

How do you know he's a sixteen year old? That wouldn't make much sense because Daenerys herself is less than sixteen years old.

[Oana_Mika]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How do you know he's a sixteen year old? That wouldn't make much sense because Daenerys herself is less than sixteen years old.

"A boy," said Dany. "He was only a boy."

"Six-and-ten," Hizdahr insisted.(ADWD, Daenerys IX)

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

"A boy," said Dany. "He was only a boy."

"Six-and-ten," Hizdahr insisted.(ADWD, Daenerys IX)

That is Hizdahr trying to convince Daenerys he is not a boy by claiming he's sixteen, not Daenerys thinking a sixteen year old is a boy...

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

That is Hizdahr trying to convince Daenerys he is not a boy by claiming he's sixteen, not Daenerys thinking a sixteen year old is a boy...

 "This one shows much promise, my sweet," Hizdahr said of a Lysene youth with long blond hair that fluttered in the wind … but his foe grabbed a handful of that hair, pulled the boy off-balance, and gutted him. In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. "A boy," said Dany. "He was only a boy."

"Six-and-ten," Hizdahr insisted. "A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak's, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed."(ADWD,Daenerys IX)

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I mean I think you have a point but this is a very difficult area generally.

The trope isn't really about skin colour; it's about cultural imperialism. Character A (from civilised, "correct" background, usually the same as the author's) goes to Foreign Place B and is horrified to discover that B does all sorts of things differently to A. They teach B the error of their ways, and this is good and necessary. This may involve A adopting some of the culture of B in the process but never any of the questionable parts.

If cut to chase this kind of cultural imperialism is good and to be applauded. Abolishing shit like cannibalism, slavery, human sacrifices, etc. is an inherently good thing. Also, of course, introducing medicine or science that actually does work.

In relation to ASoIaF slavery is the only issue on the table, though, and while that's clearly a wrong thing it is also part of the culture Daenerys grew up in (both of her Valyrian heritage as well as the Free Cities where she spend all her childhood life). So Daenerys is not somebody from a foreign culture who tells others what to do - she is part of both Valyrian and Dothraki culture and concludes on the basis of her firsthand experiences that slavery is a monstrous practice which has to go. After all, in context Slaver's Bay is part of the extended Valyrian world as well. They have even given up their own language and speak Valyrian now.

In any other part the Westerosi are not more enlightened - one could even say that their feudalist nonsense is a more primitive society which puts the bulk of the population in a worse place than where the free citizens of the various Free Cities are.

It does feel kind of silly to imagine the Westerosi as 'white' or 'the hegemonic culture' when, from the POV of high culture Essos, they are shitty, barbaric place at the very end of the world (you see that hammered home, for example, when a Qartheen map of the world does not even depict Westeros). Westeros has nothing to teach or bring to the peoples and cultures of Essos. If you want to draw parallels there then the Ghiscari are more like the Roman-conquered Greece, Carthage, or Egypt, Valyria is Rome, and the Free Cities are the medieval Italian city-states.

Westeros is the barbaric west and north - England, Normandy, not-yet-centralized France, Germany, etc.

And Daenerys - while born on Dragonstone - is raised in Essos and is the scion of a Valyrian family of great lineage. She is neither and outsider nor an intruder in Essosi culture. In fact, Khal Drogo covets her as his bride not because she is the daughter of some dead savage king of Westeros but because she is one of the last survivors of a Valyrain dragonlord family.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

 "This one shows much promise, my sweet," Hizdahr said of a Lysene youth with long blond hair that fluttered in the wind … but his foe grabbed a handful of that hair, pulled the boy off-balance, and gutted him. In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. "A boy," said Dany. "He was only a boy."

"Six-and-ten," Hizdahr insisted. "A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak's, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed."(ADWD,Daenerys IX)

As I said, Daenerys thinks he is a boy. Hizdahr is trying to convince her he's not a boy by saying he's six and ten. It also would not make sense for Daenerys to consider someone older than herself to be a young boy. Also this is a completely different person to the boy wearing the tokar in the throne room... Hizdahr is likely lying as he has a vested interest in doing so.

[Oana_Mika]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

As I said, Daenerys thinks he is a boy. Hizdahr is trying to convince her he's not a boy by saying he's six and ten. It also would not make sense for Daenerys to consider someone older than herself to be a young boy. Also this is a completely different person to the boy wearing the tokar in the throne room... Hizdahr is likely lying as he has a vested interest in doing so.

 

This scene happenes at the Daznak Pit, right in the chapter where it is open to celebrate Dany's marriage with Hizdahr and it's not about Hizdahr being a boy, but the person who just died in that pit :

 

Pale Qartheen, black Summer Islanders, copper-skinned Dothraki, Tyroshi with blue beards, Lamb Men, Jogos Nhai, sullen Braavosi, brindle-skinned half-men from the jungles of Sothoros—from the ends of the world they came to die in Daznak's Pit. "This one shows much promise, my sweet," Hizdahr said of a Lysene youth with long blond hair that fluttered in the wind … but his foe grabbed a handful of that hair, pulled the boy off-balance, and gutted him. In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. "A boy," said Dany. "He was only a boy." (ADWD, Daenerys IX)

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Westeros is the barbaric west and north - England, Normandy, not-yet-centralized France, Germany, etc.

How are they any more barbaric than the Romans? And I'm sorry but Westeros being 'barbaric' does not give the Targaryens the right to invade, the Celts, Britons and Germans being 'barbaric' does not give Rome the right to invade, it's not like Rome wouldn't be considered 'barbaric' given the colloseum, how they treated slaves and people they conquered and so on. People in India being 'barbaric' did not give the British the right to invade. And this whole 'mission to civilise thing' is imperialist rhetoric that they came up with to justify invasions. Because the invasions were for money and power, they were almost never about helping people.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If cut to chase this kind of cultural imperialism is good and to be applauded. Abolishing shit like cannibalism, slavery, human sacrifices, etc. is an inherently good thing. Also, of course, introducing medicine or science that actually does work.

The issue is that this always goes hand in hand with oppression of native people beyond getting rid of 'problematic' practices. These Empires aren't just showing up, doing all this good stuff and leaving. They are exploiting the native people.

Edited March 12 by Craving Peaches

[Oana_Mika]

@Craving Peaches oh, I think I misunderstood you. Are you saying Hizdahr lied about that person's age? I would not put that past him, just making sure I get your point.

Edited March 12 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Oana_Mika said:

oh, I think I misunderstood you. Are you saying Hizdahr lied about that person's age? I would not put that past him, just making sure I get your point.

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at. Glad we understand each other now 

[Oana_Mika]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In any other part the Westerosi are not more enlightened - one could even say that their feudalist nonsense is a more primitive society which puts the bulk of the population in a worse place than where the free citizens of the various Free Cities are.

Although slavery is abolished in Westeros we do have Jorah selling poachers, Jon pondering about purchasing slaves and freeing them after they do their job and we get Harrenhal turning into a slave camp in TWO5K.

Edited March 12 by Oana_Mika

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How are they any less barbaric than the Romans? And I'm sorry but Westeros being 'barbaric' does not give the Targaryens the right to invade, the Celts, Britons and Germans being 'barbaric' does not give Rome the right to invade, it's not like Rome wouldn't be considered 'barbaric' given the colloseum, how they treated slaves and people they conquered and so on. People in India being 'barbaric' did not give the British the right to invade.

I was not talking about rights to invade there, simply about traditional cultural hierarchies - and there Westeros would simply not be viewed as a great civilization. Just as the east/the mediterreanean was the seat of high culture in antiquity, and not 'Europe' - and most definitely not 'Western Europe'.

If 'the white race' as a political construct is a thing in Martinworld, it would be Valyrian, not Westerosi. And Essos happens to be the Valyrian continent, so Daenerys is by no means a colonizer or a white savior coming to exotic or primitive or 'other' cultures ... because the Ghiscari are effectively Valyrian, too. And before they became Valyrian they were the rulers of the world.

And Daenerys is not a white person from the civilized West teaching the mongrel savages of the east how to do things right ... she is a scion of the eastern world as well, who grew up ingrained in their culture and who learned that slavery is bad by experience - like everybody else living in those cultures could and should, too.

Dany is pretty much like a white or black person living in the pre-civil war south of the US coming to the conclusion that slavery sucks on the basis of personal experience. In a sense, Dany even herself was bought and sold like a slave by Khal Drogo.

The notion that, say, only black slaves do have a right to end black slavery in the US - or that only slaves can and should fight against slavery - is ludicrous. Everybody can and should come to the conclusion that (racialized) slavery is a monstrous practice and has to go.

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Although slavery is abolished in Westeros we do have Jorah selling poachers, Jon pondering about purchasing slaves and after they do their job and we get Harrenhal turning into a slave camp in TWO5K.

Yes, but as a broad cultural practice it isn't a thing in most parts of Westeros. Of course, salt-wives and thralls and wildling wife-stealing are effectively slavery, although they are slaves that cannot be bought and sold.

[Oana_Mika]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Daenerys - while born on Dragonstone - is raised in Essos and is the scion of a Valyrian family of great lineage. She is neither and outsider nor an intruder in Essosi culture. In fact, Khal Drogo covets her as his bride not because she is the daughter of some dead savage king of Westeros but because she is one of the last survivors of a Valyrain dragonlord family.

It's really hilarious because the same people use Dany's heritage as why she is unfit to rule Westeros (because she did not grew there and her family was from Essos as if the First Men, the Andals and Rhoynar - the ancestros of the houses in Westeros - did not came from the East) but they also say she is foreign to Essos.

Edited March 12 by Oana_Mika

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

I was not talking about rights to invade there, simply about traditional cultural hierarchies

Okay, thank you for clarifying, and sorry if I got a bit cross. I have seen a worrying number of people on the internet genuinely buying into the 'Mission to Civilise' argument as justification for all sorts of atrocities.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The notion that, say, only black slaves do have a right to end black slavery in the US - or that only slaves can and should fight against slavery - is ludicrous. Everybody can and should come to the conclusion that (racialized) slavery is a monstrous practice and has to go.

Yes, it is really silly that people are told not to help others in this manner.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

Haven't you thought that maybe in the show she only says "harm no child" because the character/actress is older, unlike in the books where she is 14-15?

And why is there a plot point of her not killing her child hostages if she is willing to kill children? 

 

Was on phone earlier and couldn't block, last reply before blocking so suit yourself after that.

Haven't you thought that maybe in Meereen she didn't murder everyone en masse like she did in Astapor?

 

[Oana_Mika]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Was on phone earlier and couldn't block, last reply before blocking so suit yourself after that.

Haven't you thought that maybe in Meereen she didn't murder everyone en masse like she did in Astapor?

 

Well, I think she killed the right amount of people to give the slaves of Astapor the upper hand but hey, opinions differ. If your concern is more on the slavers than the slaves and how many Good Masters Dany killed in Astapor, then it's your view and I don't wish, nor can, to change that. But people are still free to call it bs when they see it.

 

Also, because she was more gentle on Meereen (and Yunkai) is the reason that the slavers can still make the freedmen's lives a living Hell.

Edited March 12 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Who was killed depends on what order the Unsullied prioritised first. The two orders were:

• Slay every man who wears a tokar - does man mean people of age or all males? Presumably it means the former since the boy wearing the tokar was still alive, but we don't know how old he is, and unless the Unsullied are 100% accurate in judging ages it could be possible that some children (in the in-world sense of the word, not just our own) were killed. Also presumably excludes woman as we see it is the women and the boys among the elites who are left in Astapor.
• Harm no child under 12.

The difficulty arises were you have aged 12-14 male tokar wearers, likely still legally considered children but not afforded the protection children get from the command as the cut off is at 12.

I very much doubt that man means male here, it is probably used as human. She doesn't say harm no boy, she says harm no child, no gender at work here.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Well, I think she killed the right amount of people to give the slaves of Astapor the upper hand but hey, opinions differ. If your concern is more on the slavers than the slaves and how many Good Masters Dany killed in Astapor, then it's your view and I don't wish, nor can, to change that. But people are still free to call it bs when they see it.

 

Also, because she was more gentle on Meereen (and Yunkai) is the reason that the slavers can still make the freedmen's lives a living Hell.

Ditto.  My sympathies in this tale rest far more with the slaves than the masters.

I can’t see the point of starting a provocative thread and not expecting strong disagreement.