R+L=J, Robb’s Will, Jon’s Resurrection, and the Timing

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree it's possible he added some provisional about Arya, to appease his mother. He believed her dead, so the provision wouldn't change a thing in his eyes. Explains why LS's focus is on finding Arya (Crossroads set up, asking the men that were hanged), despite the fact that she would know Sansa fled KL during Joffrey's wedding.

Agree. Mentioning all his siblings but Arya is… odd. It could be a hint. What’s also interesting is that while Robb may have believed her to be dead, we know she isn’t. So it is within the realm of possibility that since he just added her to appease Cat not really caring what he assigned to her, this could have actual consequences once she’s revealed to be alive. 

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree. Mentioning all his siblings but Arya is… odd. It could be a hint. What’s also interesting is that while Robb may have believed her to be dead, we know she isn’t. So it is within the realm of possibility that since he just added her to appease Cat not really caring what he assigned to her, this could have actual consequences once she’s revealed to be alive. 

I think it will mostly impact Arya and the RL plot about LS's motivation.

Imo Arya will return to Westeros via the Riverlands (gets off a ship in Maidenpool). She might use a disguise, different name, but Gendry will recognize her nevertheless (even if her disguise is very good). She learns her mother is looking for her, specifically her. So, initially this would heal much of her unresolved feelings about not being good enough for her mother that she felt even when she was with the BwB. But eventually she learns it's to make her Queen in the North and rival Jon's claim. But Arya would not want to be QitN at Jon's expense. And though I don't believe Jon will remain KitN by the end of the series, and I agree Sansa might end up as Lady or Queen of Winterfell in the end, I think this will all come about after they have acted as a pack. Sansa is not yet there and at present, Sansa would allow herself to be used as a rival claim imho, which would cause division. Since Robb's will deliberately skipped her while knowing she was alive, she has no rival claim in the eyes of the RL and Northern lords, nor even LS who is not herself actively looking for her or spending her resources on it.

(There is LS' visit into the Neck to contend with though, after she had Merrett Frey hanged: (1) to warn Howland Reed, Maege and Glover that the "Arya" Roose Bolton was bringing with him was fake and not to risk their lives on rescuing her as he passes through (2) to watch out or look for Sansa who escaped KL, but just to recover a daughter)

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think it will mostly impact Arya and the RL plot about LS's motivation.

Imo Arya will return to Westeros via the Riverlands (gets off a ship in Maidenpool). She might use a disguise, different name, but Gendry will recognize her nevertheless (even if her disguise is very good). She learns her mother is looking for her, specifically her. So, initially this would heal much of her unresolved feelings about not being good enough for her mother that she felt even when she was with the BwB. But eventually she learns it's to make her Queen in the North and rival Jon's claim. But Arya would not want to be QitN at Jon's expense. And though I don't believe Jon will remain KitN by the end of the series, and I agree Sansa might end up as Lady or Queen of Winterfell in the end, I think this will all come about after they have acted as a pack. Sansa is not yet there and at present, Sansa would allow herself to be used as a rival claim imho, which would cause division. Since Robb's will deliberately skipped her while knowing she was alive, she has no rival claim in the eyes of the RL and Northern lords, nor even LS who is not herself actively looking for her.

Agree. I was thinking Robb could have named Arya his heir to appease Cat even if he believed her to be dead. And in Arya’s absence, Jon. Could make for interesting developments. 

[Nevets]

To the extent that the BwB is searching for Arya, it's because they know she was in the area and have reason to believe she still is. They are wishing to keep her safe.  Merrett Frey was asked about the Hound because they feared he and Arya had gotten caught in the Red wedding.

The Crossroads orphanage appears to have sprung up more or less spontaneously.  Abandoned and orphaned children gravitated to it, and the BwB then started protecting it.  Nothing to do with Arya, though I expect Gendry is there at least in part because he can recognize Arya.

I don't really see why Arya would return in disguise.  The only enemies she has that might recognize her are Cersei and Roose, and neither of them is near the Riverlands. 

It is certainly possible that Arya is mentioned in Robb's will, but given her age, she can't rule in her own right anyway.  I doubt the Starks themselves will be interested in fighting over rule of the North, but their supporters might get involved in a proxy fight.

[sweetsunray]

Just to highlight that the BwB does a tad bit more than what Nevets tries to make it out to be

Merrett is not just asked about the Hound, but they're especially inquiring after Arya

Quote

"He would have had a child with him," said the singer. "A skinny girl, about ten. Or perhaps a boy the same age."

"I don't think so," said Merrett. "Not that I knew."

"No? Ah, that's a pity. Well, up you go." (aSoS, Epilogue)

The Crossroads is run by the Heddle sisters. The Crossroads has been run by a Heddle since decades. The eldest sister Heddle is part of the BwB

Quote

"Do you have a name?" Brienne asked. Her stomach gurgled. She was afraid that she might retch.

"Heddle. Same as Willow. Jeyne Heddle."

"Jeyne. Untie my hands. Please. Have pity. The ropes are chafing my wrists. I'm bleeding." [...]

A fire pit had been dug into the center of the floor, and the air was blue with smoke. Men clustered near the flames, warming themselves against the chill of the cave. Others stood along the walls or sat cross-legged on straw pallets. There were women too, and even a few children peering out from behind their mothers' skirts. The one face Brienne knew belonged to Long Jeyne Heddle.

A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood. (aFfC, Brienne VIII)

This is also the inn where Arya was last seen with the Hound before disappearing in the direction of Saltpans, and where she fought.

Quote

"I am certain that the child was with Sandor Clegane at the inn beside the crossroads, the one old Masha Heddle used to keep, before the lions hanged her. I am certain they were on their way to Saltpans. (aFfC, Brienne VI)

Ser Hyle pulled off his boots to warm his feet by the fire. When Brienne sat down next to him, he nodded at the far end of the room. "There are bloodstains on the floor over there where Dog is sniffing. They've been scrubbed, but the blood soaked deep into the wood, and there's no getting it out."

"This is the inn where Sandor Clegane killed three of his brother's men," she reminded him. (aFfC, Brienne VII)

They've hunted and no doubt interrogated almost all and any of the men who attacked Saltpans, no doubt.

Quote

After that, hardly a hundred yards went by without a corpse. They dangled under ash and alder, beech and birch, larch and elm, hoary old willows and stately chestnut trees. Each man wore a noose around his neck, and swung from a length of hempen rope, and each man's mouth was packed with salt. Some wore cloaks of grey or blue or crimson, though rain and sun had faded them so badly that it was hard to tell one color from another. Others had badges sewn on their breasts. Brienne spied axes, arrows, several salmon, a pine tree, an oak leaf, beetles, bantams, a boar's head, half a dozen tridents. Broken men, she realized, dregs from a dozen armies, the leavings of the lords.

Some of the dead men had been bald and some bearded, some young and some old, some short, some tall, some fat, some thin. Swollen in death, with faces gnawed and rotten, they all looked the same. On the gallows tree, all men are brothers. Brienne had read that in a book, though she could not recall which one.

It was Hyle Hunt who finally put words to what all of them had realized. "These are the men who raided Saltpans."

"May the Father judge them harshly," said Meribald, who had been a friend to the town's aged septon. (aFfC, Brienne VII)

It was deliberately set up to welcome only children, after Jeyne and Willow took possession of the inn

Quote

"All these children," Brienne said to the girl Willow. "Are they your . . . sisters? Brothers? Kin and cousins?"

"No." Willow was staring at her, in a way that she knew well. "They're just . . . I don't know . . . the sparrows bring them here, sometimes. Others find their own way. (aFfC, Brienne VII)

It has no other function really. They don't normally allow guests to stay there. It's not used for spying or entrapping people or to make money. And it's guarded normally 24/7, including by experienced BwB-ers such as Lem (who was also the escort of LS into the Neck). So, quite a lot of resources go into a place to broadcast "send kids here". And it's not just to keep kids safe and give them food. After all, wouldn't it be less resource costly and less dangerous for these kids to be sheltered in the caves with Thoros and all the other people sheltering there?

They set it up so that via word of mouth, orphans or single children find their way there, with the help of sparrows or by themselves.

[Nevets]

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Just to highlight that the BwB does a tad bit more than what Nevets tries to make it out to be

Merrett is not just asked about the Hound, but they're especially inquiring after Arya

The Crossroads is run by the Heddle sisters. The Crossroads has been run by a Heddle since decades. The eldest sister Heddle is part of the BwB

This is also the inn where Arya was last seen with the Hound before disappearing in the direction of Saltpans, and where she fought.

They've hunted and no doubt interrogated almost all and any of the men who attacked Saltpans, no doubt.

It was deliberately set up to welcome only children, after Jeyne and Willow took possession of the inn

It has no other function really. They don't normally allow guests to stay there. It's not used for spying or entrapping people or to make money. And it's guarded normally 24/7, including by experienced BwB-ers such as Lem (who was also the escort of LS into the Neck). So, quite a lot of resources go into a place to broadcast "send kids here". And it's not just to keep kids safe and give them food. After all, wouldn't it be less resource costly and less dangerous for these kids to be sheltered in the caves with Thoros and all the other people sheltering there?

They set it up so that via word of mouth, orphans or single children find their way there, with the help of sparrows or by themselves.

They don't normally allow guests to stay there?  Here's Septon Meribald

Quote

"The smallfolk call it the crossroads inn.  Elder Brother told me that two of Masha Heddle's nieces have opened it to trade once again"

And later, at the inn.

Quote

"I'm Willow. Will you be wanting beds?" ...  "We have beds though.  Some featherbeds, but more are straw." 

Sounds to me they take paying customers.

To be clear, my differences are mostly a matter of emphasis.  I don't think they set up the inn to find Arya, and their questions for Merrett Frey were entirely related to the Red Wedding, suggesting they were unaware at that time of their appearance at the crossroads inn.

It is unclear as to what the BwB currently knows, although it is likely they are aware she was headed for Saltpans shortly before the raid.  I doubt any raiders would recognize her, so no point in questioning them.

Gendry is probably at the inn in case Arya shows up, but I doubt that is it's main purpose.

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

They don't normally allow guests to stay there?  Here's Septon Meribald

And later, at the inn.

Sounds to me they take paying customers.

Selective quoting much
 

Quote

Septon Meribald answered. "Lady Brienne is a warrior maid upon a quest. Just now, though, she is in need of a dry bed and a warm fire. As are we all. My old bones say it's going to rain again, and soon. Do you have rooms for us?"

"No," said the boy smith. "Yes," said the girl Willow. (aFfC, Brienne VII)

And this is after Gendry already interfered with the prior suggestions that Meribald used to have a bed by Masha. Gendry appears and tells them Masha's dead, not the same rules anymore. They seem to allow sparrows or septons a bed, but this septon is with one knight and a woman warrior. Which is why Gendry steps in first to say masha's dead (aka old rules don't apply anymore) and he says "no" in the above quote.

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

and their questions for Merrett Frey were entirely related to the Red Wedding, suggesting they were unaware at that time of their appearance at the crossroads inn.

Which I never implied in relation.to the Merrett questioning They ask after the Hound and Arya at the time. With Merrett and those prior they have confirmation that Arya was not captured nor found by the Freys or Roose Bolton, and therefore the Arya with Bolton is a fake.

What happened at the Crossroads Inn was known by the Heddle sisters, since they chased off the prostitutes who were witnesses. So, they learned more since questioning Merrett. Since Elder Brother knows about the Heddle sisters taking over the Inn, there has been some contact indirectly. People from Saltpans left and moved to Maidenpool. Many would have encountered BwB as well, or would have passed by the Crossroads.

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 I doubt any raiders would recognize her, so no point in questioning them.

They would simply ask whether they saw or killed a girl or boy of about ten and questioned them what the boy or girl would have looked like. They're not stupid and going to ask "Did you see or kill Arya Stark." 

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

20 hours ago, Aebram said:

I may be a minority of one on this question, but I don't think we can assume that Robb named Jon as his heir.

In ASOS 45, Robb and his mother had an argument about who he should name. Then, some days later, Robb announced that he had made his decision, and he wanted some other lords to witness it.. and then the chapter ended, without actually revealing what he decided.

That looks to me like a setup for a surprise later on. Also, if Robb did choose Jon, then the scene describing the argument seems to have no purpose in the story.

100% agree! We have no confirmation that Robb named Jon his heir and we kind of have a narrative hole where that confirmation should have taken place. Cat who rues and regrets everything after the report of Bran and Rickon's deaths never once thinks back to rue Robb's decision or say to herself "I hope he's right but..."? I think we have been led down the garden path a little bit here.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

100% agree! We have no confirmation that Robb named Jon his heir and we kind of have a narrative hole where that confirmation should have taken place. Cat who rues and regrets everything after the report of Bran and Rickon's deaths never once thinks back to rue Robb's decision or say to herself "I hope he's right but..."? I think we have been led down the garden path a little bit here.

I don’t know… one chapter ends with the will being signed, then there’s the one where they arrive at the Twins, and then it’s “party time” (sorry). It’s not like she’s had pages and pages to think about Robb’s will. The chapter between the will and the RW has very, very little inner monologue; it’s really just a couple of thoughts revolving around the upcoming wedding and how to navigate the situation. Probably on purpose, to avoid giving anything away. 
 

ps: out of curiosity, who do you think Robb named his heir? 

[Thunder Bunny]

the purpose of the will is known. Disinherit Sansa and declare an heir. beyond that we have no idea who Robb chose as his designated successor. 

King Robb believes Arya dead so she is not considered. Jon is in his conversation with Catelyn but that does not necessarily mean it is him who he chose in the end. i think some readers are led to believe that it is Jon because we are are experiencing Catelyn's POV. 

 

[Mithras]

GRRM wrote ASoS with the intention of jumping 5 years ahead at the end. I don't think Robb's will matters.

[TheShadowOfTheWolf]

I don't think it is all that unlikely that Jon might be first in line of succession to Robb in Robb's will. Jon has joined the night's watch and is not permitted to hold any crown, land or have any children so from Robb's point of view, this can likely be an empty gesture.

We know resurrections are possible in the story, and that Jon is a likely candidate to be resurrected if he dies. Robb doesn't. We also have reason to suspect that the night's watch exist to protect the realm from the threat of the others, but assuming they manage to end that threat forever, then maybe the night's watch won't have any reason to exist any more, making the oath null and void and let Jon do anything he wants. Robb doesn't have any reason to suspect this either.