Jump to content

ASOIAF Confessions


Recommended Posts

Cersei is an absolute delight to read—she’s just so much fun—but her cartoonish levels of stupidity and incompetence prevents her from being a great character, in my opinion. GRRM tries to balance this by including the prophecies and the psychological scarring caused by Tywin and Robert, but it’s still egregious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Cersei, the best Lannister sibling... Sounds weird saying it. Doesn't make sense thinking it. Troubles me as I type it. 

I find her the most interesting of the siblings and by far the most honest.

Cersei is terrible yadda yadda yadda but she doesn't hide it, she doesn't care for it, she wants what she believes is due to her and will fight tooth and nail to get it, loved that. She's a mean girl, no half assed redemptions, just power tripping spiral.

 

3 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Jamie, I started out hating, as he threw a kid from a window(not sure how that is a good starting point), now to the point where I'm cheering for him(at least to survive)

Nothing more tedious than a terrible character doing terrible things and then falling in self pity and sobbing about the world not liking them.

I can only read about Jaime saying, doing or thinking about doing something terrible before saying he wants to become Goldenhand the just so many times before rolling my eyes.

I enjoyed Brienne's journey but dreaded Jaime's chapters, i can only think about Bran and Dany's chapters in ADWD being more tedious.

3 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

As for the story, you ARE reading a story about the Baratheon's fucking up. You don't get to a war of 5 kings because things were going great.

Yeah and it is glorious, i want more of that.

You can keep your incest weirdos and your hairy heathens.  Just gimme the Baratheons butting antlers against themselves and the world.

 

3 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

And them being better then the Targ's, Come on. Stop it.

In every aspect pal

 

Another one.

This series has a serious problem with child brides and how many adults are lusting over prepubescent girls and i never know what is more weird, how prevalent is in the books or the weird defenses used by some fans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, frenin said:

I find her the most interesting of the siblings and by far the most honest.

Cersei is terrible yadda yadda yadda but she doesn't hide it, she doesn't care for it, she wants what she believes is due to her and will fight tooth and nail to get it, loved that. She's a mean girl, no half assed redemptions, just power tripping spiral.

 

Nothing more tedious than a terrible character doing terrible things and then falling in self pity and sobbing about the world not liking them.

I can only read about Jaime saying, doing or thinking about doing something terrible before saying he wants to become Goldenhand the just so many times before rolling my eyes.

I enjoyed Brienne's journey but dreaded Jaime's chapters, i can only think about Bran and Dany's chapters in ADWD being more tedious.

Yeah and it is glorious, i want more of that.

You can keep your incest weirdos and your hairy heathens.  Just gimme the Baratheons butting antlers against themselves and the world.

 

In every aspect pal

 

Another one.

This series has a serious problem with child brides and how many adults are lusting over prepubescent girls and i never know what is more weird, how prevalent is in the books or the weird defenses used by some fans.

We all have our favs, all for our own reasons. I can appreciate your point of view, but I look at all of this from an entirely different POV.

To me Cersei is just a complete train wreck and not in any way interesting. She is a genuine POS. From being a shit mother & sister, to a horrible friend, to a horrendous Queen. Selfish, arrogant, and petulant. It is so over the top, I don't find her interesting in the slightest. Also... by Keeping with your "incest weirdos" she has her brother and a cousin on her list. There are probably more, we just don't see it on page. She is the poster child of incest weirdos. So not sure how you resolve that.

Jamie started in the same position in my mind, but once he was captured, a sense of self awareness became apparent. Step by step, he consciously wanted to become a better person, by thought and deed. One of my favorite chapters is when he is reading the White Book, reading of the deeds of his predecessors (and betters). The point where he gets to is own page and his internal monologue in that chapter is better(to me) than anything about Cersei on any page of the entire series.  For me anyway, it isn't even close. 

Even Tyrion, The lecherous, drunk dwarf has far more complexity to him.

As for the Baratheon's, are you on team Stannis ? I kind of like bitter and brittle Stannis. I don't think he will live all that much longer, but his interactions with Jon and the Onion Knight are fantastic. I do think he will have a gloriously and grisly end. 

But for me, The Baratheon's are one of the least interesting Great houses. At least in the present story. During the Conquest and the Dance they were a bad ass . Entirely different imo.

Targ's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baratheon's. The godlike, dragon riders from an extinct race on the brink of being destroyed themselves.... again, not even close. 

I think the child bride thing is a bit over done as well, but I see it as a nod to how things actually were for a good chunk of human history. Like it or not, Pre Industrial Revolution and even into the 19t century, it was the norm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Meh, to each...

Couple pf things.

 

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Even Tyrion, The lecherous, drunk dwarf has far more complexity to him.

Being an "anti hero"=/ being complex.

 

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

She is the poster child of incest weirdos. So not sure how you resolve that.

She is interesting and fun, unlike her dragonlords weirdos.

 

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

As for the Baratheon's, are you on team Stannis ?

I'd rather drink cyanide do not like him that much.

 

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

it was the norm. 

It was the exception, it was not uncommon but child brides had a harder time surviving pregnancies, people back then knew that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Like it or not, Pre Industrial Revolution and even into the 19t century, it was the norm. 

Actually average age for noble marriages in middle ages was not child brides, it was older because the purpose of the marriage is to produce heirs. Sure there were some exceptions but it was not as frequent as it was in the books. So stuff like 13 year old Daenerys being married, Sansa being married as soon as she got her period etc. would be very unlikely. Only peasants sometimes had child brides. Though note marriage doesn't always mean they will consummate right away.

Quote

Weddings in the middle ages formed the groundwork for most of the modern wedding customs and traditions. Noble women typically married when they got to the age of 24 or older, compared to peasants who married at a younger age of 12 years. Overall, in Europe most people married by the time they reached 19 years.

Souce: Marriage in the Middle Ages - The Finer Times

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei is an absolute delight to read—she’s just so much fun—but her cartoonish levels of stupidity and incompetence prevents her from being a great character, in my opinion. GRRM tries to balance this by including the prophecies and the psychological scarring caused by Tywin and Robert, but it’s still egregious.

The women are my favorite. Hands down. Cersei, Catelyn, Selyse, Barbrey, Arianne, Asha, Alannys, Dacey, Maege, Lysa, Ellaria, Melisandre, Galazza Galare, Mirri Maz Duur, Olenna, Alayaya, Taena, Kojja Mo, Val (whom I always assume is a little older)

And of course the young ladies. Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Dany, Alys, Ygritte, Jeyne (both), Wylla, Margaery, Gilly, Missandei, Mya, Myranda, Shireen, Myrcella, etc.

I could go on, but I'll stop there heh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

The women are my favorite. Hands down. Cersei, Catelyn, Selyse, Barbrey, Arianne, Asha, Alannys, Dacey, Maege, Lysa, Ellaria, Melisandre, Galazza Galare, Mirri Maz Duur, Olenna, Alayaya, Taena, Kojja Mo, Val (whom I always assume is a little older)

And of course the young ladies. Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Dany, Alys, Ygritte, Jeyne (both), Wylla, Margaery, Gilly, Missandei, Mya, Myranda, Shireen, Myrcella, etc.

I could go on, but I'll stop there heh.

Frankly agree, the only male pov who has caught my attention and never let go was Ned, the rest while interesting in varying degrees just can't outshine the female povs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Roose Bolton and his vampiric looks and attitude. Even his castle resembles some gothic castle with darkish halls where torches are held by bones. GRRM took all the common places, jutted them together and still made the character work. :wacko: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

Frankly agree, the only male pov who has caught my attention and never let go was Ned, the rest while interesting in varying degrees just can't outshine the female povs.

I do love some of the men as well. In fact I started to make a list, but in doing so there ended up being more than I realized. And Ned. Ned is a sweet and adorable man. I love when he thinks about Catelyn. ♥ Bran Stark is my top favorite character in the entire series. Eddison Tollet makes me laugh a lot. The BwB has no many unique characters that I really enjoy. I'm practically in love with Willas Tyrell even though we barely know anything about him. Honestly, how is he not married yet? And Wyman Manderly? I worship :bowdown:

Really I only have a handful of characters that I actually hate. I won't mention the obvious ones, but I can't stand Jorah. And Tywin is just infuriating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actually average age for noble marriages in middle ages was not child brides, it was older because the purpose of the marriage is to produce heirs. Sure there were some exceptions but it was not as frequent as it was in the books. So stuff like 13 year old Daenerys being married, Sansa being married as soon as she got her period etc. would be very unlikely. Only peasants sometimes had child brides. Though note marriage doesn't always mean they will consummate right away.

Souce: Marriage in the Middle Ages - The Finer Times

I was also lumping the the betrothal stage. But even still. In a time when average life expectancy was 25-30, and they were having a dozen kids due to infant mortality. They started pretty young. Lots of info out there on this. It was common.

1)Antiquity

The beginnings of this marriage pattern might be found as early as the time of the Roman Empire. ...In addition, Anglo-Saxon women, like those of other Germanic tribes, are marked as women from the age of twelve onward, based on archaeological finds, implying that the age of marriage coincided with puberty.[29]

Source: Western European marriage pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern

2) In the middle ages

Girls were typically in their teens when they married, and boys were in their early twenties.

Source :Marriage | Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament

3)About 1140, Gratian established that according to canon law the bonds of marriage should be determined by mutual consent and not consummation, voicing opinions similar to Isaac's opinion of forced marriages; marriages were made by God and the blessing of a priest should only be made after the fact. Therefore, a man and a woman could agree to marry each other at even the minimum age of consent- fourteen years for men, twelve years for women- and bring the priest after the fact.

Source: Western European marriage pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

I was also lumping the the betrothal stage. But even still. In a time when average life expectancy was 25-30, and they were having a dozen kids due to infant mortality. 

 

A common misconception. Life expectancy at birth was often around 30, but that's because ot's a mean estimate and infant mortality was high. Life expectancy at 5 was much higher. If you made it through childhood then living to your 60s was a reasonable expectation...

...unless you were a woman. The biggest cause of premature death for adults was death in (or immediately following) childbirth. Having a whole bunch of kids was a danger for the mother and starting before she was fully grown particularly so. Of course in a world without reliable contraception, accidents (and resulting shotgun weddings) happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm unsure as to what is meant by child bride in this context.  Sansa and Daenerys are the main examples given, but they are considered exceedingly young even by in-world standards.  Tyrion objected quite strenuously to Sansa's age.  So I hardly think they can be regarded as typical.

Those are the main marriages or sexual relationships I can think of under about 16 (there's Jeyne Poole, but that had many, many problems).  And while low by modern standards, I don't think it was entirely unusual historically.  And I don't recall reading that childbirth at that age is especially dangerous; it's early teens that is the problem area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

So I hardly think they can be regarded as typical.

I do believe it's typical, I think about Lady Turnips, Daeneara Velaryon, Aemma Arryn, Helaena...

At least the husbands weren't in those cases full grown adults.

 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Tyrion objected quite strenuously to Sansa's age. 

Didn't prevent him from getting aroused by her... Ditto in the Vale. Jorah, nuff said.

The deflowering of extremely young women, etc etc etc. 

Westerosi's nobles are full of pedos to a worrying degree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

I do believe it's typical, I think about Lady Turnips, Daeneara Velaryon, Aemma Arryn, Helaena...

At least the husbands weren't in those cases full grown adults.

 

Didn't prevent him from getting aroused by her... Ditto in the Vale. Jorah, nuff said.

The deflowering of extremely young women, etc etc etc. 

Westerosi's nobles are full of pedos to a worrying degree.

I've never heard of the people you mention.  I tend to stick to the main series.  I'm guessing that's the case with most readers.

Deflowering of extremely young women?  Like who, other than those already mentioned?  Main series only, please.

It would appear that your definition of pedophile is different, and broader, than the actual definition.  Which is not a great surprise.  It tends to get widely misused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I've never heard of the people you mention.  I tend to stick to the main series.  I'm guessing that's the case with most readers.

Eh.

 

43 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Deflowering of extremely young women?  Like who, other than those already mentioned?  Main series only, please.

Top of my mind Barra, LF also said that young girls (12 yo or so) virgins are very much sought after. Arya being told not reveal she's a girl even tho she has 9 years, Arya's disgusting chapter in Winds.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/14/2023 at 12:39 AM, Craving Peaches said:

It does annoy me when him and his high and mighty Aerys-loving friends get so snobby and look down on Jaime. At least Jaime bothered to make a fuss about poor Rhaella.

I agree on Selmy.

in my head cannon, the elder members of kingsgaurd can overlook these things more easily because they remember a less cruel Aerys. though Jonothor and Gerold's explanations about duty to Jaimie indicate that they had those conflicts on their own, ending up thinking they should cling to their vows, which is a cowardly move. then there are younger members, Arthur and Oswel, who were clearly on Rhaegar's side. again, in my headcannon , they must have been like Jaimie when they joined leaving them to readily break their vows to Aerys and hope for a better replacement in Rhaegar.

On 3/14/2023 at 12:39 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t like the Blackfish, I think he’s an arsehole. There, I said it. :leaving:

yeah, he kinda is . not half as much as his show counterpart though!

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Eh.

 

Top of my mind Barra, LF also said that young girls (12 yo or so) virgins are very much sought after. Arya being told not reveal she's a girl even tho she has 9 years, Arya's disgusting chapter in Winds.

 

 

So we have sleazeballs, brothel keepers, and war criminals eying underage sex workers (or those pretending to be).  If that's the worst you can come up with, I'm not too worried.  

As for Arya pretending to be a boy, that was a requirement since the Nights Watch doesn't accept girls.  Her presence would raise too many questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Nevets said:

As for Arya pretending to be a boy, that was a requirement since the Nights Watch doesn't accept girls.  Her presence would raise too many questions.

Arya was passing as a boy as safety. This is literally stated 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Nevets said:

So we have sleazeballs, brothel keepers, and war criminals eying underage sex workers (or those pretending to be).  If that's the worst you can come up with, I'm not too worried.  

Who do you think luxury brothel keepers offer their services to? Who do you think are the war criminals and sleazeballs?

 

Oh well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

yeah, he kinda is . not half as much as his show counterpart though!

Yeah, but it goes without saying, right? Anything good in the books was destroyed in the abomination. Alternatively, anything bad in the books was made so much worse in the abomination! :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...