GOT Musings

[csuszka1948]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

As to MQD, we have three leaders in the book, who are framed as sympathetic, even righteous, who wage war and kill enemies to attain their ends, Robb, Stannis and Jon.

Robb’s men pillage the West, rape, and hang young women.  Stannis burns the Kingswood, and comes close to sacking Kings Landing. He uses black magic to kill enemies, and burns traitors.  Jon steals Gilly’s baby, tortures Karstark and his men, wages war by proxy against the Boltons, takes children hostage.

Is the overall message of the tale to be that killing, when done by a man, is simply a soldier’s duty? When done by a woman, however, it’s proof of madness?

 

 

 

 

 

It's more about political legitimacy. By the time Dany arrives, Aegon would have united most of Westeros, and almost nobody would want her to be ruler in his place - she is a woman behind him in the line of succession, she has brought an army of foreigners with her, she will 'follow' a foreign religion, is unfamiliar with many customs of the Seven Kingdoms and might attempt large-scale societal changes. Who wants her in Westeros?

 

In contrast, his own bannermen elected Robb and many Northerners would like to see Jon replacing the Boltons.

Stannis' case is actually somewhat similar to hers - Renly is much more popular than him and has a much bigger backing and Stannis 'follows' R'hllor - but he has the luck of being a man raised in Westeros, his dark deeds are unknown to the general populace, he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (called dragons) and he tried to avoid damaging the smallfolk at every turn (even punishing the rape of wildlings).

Edited April 25, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It's more about political legitimacy. By the time Dany arrives, Aegon would have united most of Westeros, and almost nobody would want her to be ruler in his place - she is a woman behind him in the line of succession, she has brought an army of foreigners with her, she will 'follow' a foreign religion, is unfamiliar with many customs of the Seven Kingdoms and might attempt large-scale societal changes. Who wants her in Westeros?

 

In contrast, his own bannermen elected Robb and many Northerners would like to see Jon replacing the Boltons.

Stannis' case is actually somewhat similar to hers - Renly is much more popular than him and has a much bigger backing and Stannis 'follows' R'hllor - but he has the luck of being a man raised in Westeros, his dark deeds are unknown to the general populace, he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (called dragons) and he tried to avoid damaging the smallfolk at every turn (even punishing the rape of wildlings).

Aegon will have enemies, I think.  I'm sure the people of Kings Landing and its surrounds, and the Dornish, will love him.

But, the families of those who have lost out (and there will be many of those, falling victim to Jon Connington and the Sand Snakes), they will think very differently.  That's where I expect Dany would get local support.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Jorah killing Dany would be so anticlimactic. He’s not a POV character, he’s already been told off for his jealousy and then exiled for his treason. And he commands no troops of his own. There’s no way he wouldn’t be immediately killed by one of the Dothraki or Unsullied. Jon, as a northern leader and Targaryen heir, would have plenty of people willing to defend him. That’s why I was never really bothered by Grey Worm letting him live—Jon has an army. Grey Worm may not care about endangering himself, but he probably didn’t want more of his men to get killed.

The reason they probably planned for Jorah to join the Watch was because Jeor’s dying words to Sam were telling him to see that Jorah joins the Watch. I think Jorah is probably one of the secondary characters hasn’t or hadn’t thought of a solid end for yet.

As for Dany and Aegon, all I know is that somebody’s stealing at least one of those dragons. Dany can only ride Drogon, and the dragons can’t dance unless there are more riders.

Edited April 25, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[csuszka1948]

29 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jorah killing Dany would be so anticlimactic. He’s not a POV character, he’s already been told off for his jealousy and then exiled for his treason.

 

 

 

I don't know why would a POV character need to kill Dany.

Why would it be anticlimactic? He has been with Dany since the beginning of her journey and in the Dothraki sea it was 'Jorah' who was talking to her. Quaithe didn't warn her about him. She will undoubtedly trust him after she returns.

Her decision to exile him also seems to have an ominous undertone:

"The queen has a good heart," Daario purred through his deep purple whiskers, "but that one is more dangerous than all the Oznaks and Meros rolled up in one."

29 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And he commands no troops of his own. There’s no way he wouldn’t be immediately killed by one of the Dothraki or Unsullied. Jon, as a northern leader and Targaryen heir, would have plenty of people willing to defend him. That’s why I was never really bothered by Grey Worm letting him live—Jon has an army. Grey Worm may not care about endangering himself, but he probably didn’t want more of his men to get killed.

 

 

 

Yes, it wouldn't have worked well in the show. We don't know the circumstances in which Jorah's betrayal will happen in the books.

Edited April 25, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Aegon will have enemies, I think.  I'm sure the people of Kings Landing and its surrounds, and the Dornish, will love him.

But, the families of those who have lost out (and there will be many of those, falling victim to Jon Connington and the Sand Snakes), they will think very differently.  That's where I expect Dany would get local support.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think these families will be Westerlanders, the Tyrells and some other Reachlords associated with them. 

The remains of the first group will probably stick with Cersei, the Lady of CR and view both Targaryens as enemy (especially if they see Tyrion with Dany) or even if some of them joins Dany they won't be able to offer significant military support, the second (Garlan's army, representing maybe third of the forces of the Reach, but may suffer further losses against Euron) will join Dany.

The main question is really who Aegon marries and whether he manages to gain the support of the Vale and Riverlords (and a marriage with Sansa could secure it), because that would really tilt the balance on his side in terms of Westerosi support.

I know Arianne is the most popular theory, but really, neither of them would benefit such a marriage. Yes, Arianne might be able to seduce Aegon, but I don't see her motivation - she not only wants to make her father proud, but she objectively would have more power as the ruler of Dorne who has the ear of the King than as a queen. I really doubt that GRRM wanted to write her as a Cersei 2.0 - yes, they used the same methods to achieve their goals, but Arianne wasn't malicious and it seems she has learnt from her mistakes.

 

Obviously, all of that's just speculation but the second Dance would be a pretty one-sided affair if Dany gained the allegiance of the Vale and half of the Riverlords besides half/third of the Reach.

Edited April 25, 2023 by csuszka1948

[The Bard of Banefort]

You guys are going to love this one. I have no idea how Hibberd managed to write this without laughing himself silly (or maybe he did). Chapter 31:

• Gwendoline ships Brienne with Dany.
• In order to make Jaime's farewell with Brienne more intense, Nikolaj ad-libbed the lines "I don't love you. No one loves you." Thank God they cut that.
• Pilou thinks Euron got a happy ending. Gemma wishes Yara had been the one to kill him.
• Not mentioned: "I never really cared about them, innocent or otherwise."
• Rory was happy with Sandor's ending, but Cleganebowl (which was one of the last scenes filmed that season) was apparently a nightmare to shoot. MS describes it as his "least favorite experience on Thrones."
• Confirmation that the Iron Islands are part of the Seven--eh, Six Kingdoms.
• After Kit finished filming, Weiss told him, "Your watch has ended and it has been a hell of a watch." Kit gave another farewell speech where he said the show "will always be the greatest thing I ever do."
• Sam is still with Gilly after becoming Grand Maester.
• Weiss describes Tyrion as "the smartest guy" on the show (hey, I thought you said Sansa was the smartest person on the show?)
• Isaac admits Westeros is basically a surveillance state under Bran.
• Also not mentioned: Bronn as the Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden.
• Again, D&D seem to be trying to work out why Bran is king for themselves. Quote from Benioff: 

  Quote

  It's the fruition of Varys' hopes all along. Who's going to think about what's best for the realm? In order to be that disinterested in self and family, it almost takes somebody who isn't human. Because we all have those flaws and weaknesses.

• Sophie wasn't allowed to keep her weird needle chain necklace (maybe they wanted it for one of those exhibits?)
• Cogman tries to explain away why Arya isn't considered batshit crazy but Dany is, saying she pulled herself back from the brink at the last moment (or rather, the Hound did) and that "she made the opposite choice from Daenerys--to embrace life over death." He also claims that "both of the Stark girls were taken to the edge, where humanity can get lost." Hmm? The only person Sansa ever killed was her abusive husband who was going to be executed either way. St. Tyrion's killed more people than her.
• Both Maisie and Lena wanted Arya to kill Cersei.
• Maisie seems to have a hard time believing that Arya would realistically turn away from revenge. She considers Arya's ending a happy one.
• Cogman on Jon's ending: 

  Quote

  It was a subversion of the expectation. When you have your "main character" discover that he's meant to be king, on any other show he would become king. That's not our show. He was never destined for that. But the truth about his parentage does affect the dominoes for the season and how they fall. Being able to ride a dragon was a factor in the destruction of the Night King--not the ultimate factor, but in the war against the dead everybody had an essential part to play to get Arya to the right spot, and if you took away any one element, the Night King would have been victorious. And his parentage was a factor in the chain of events that led Daenerys to her eventual tragic ending.

• Hibberd claims that Jon joined the Free Folk. Kit: "Everyone has told him he belonged in the true north and he's finally going there. I don't think he's coming back."

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jorah killing Dany would be so anticlimactic. He’s not a POV character, he’s already been told off for his jealousy and then exiled for his treason. And he commands no troops of his own. There’s no way he wouldn’t be immediately killed by one of the Dothraki or Unsullied. Jon, as a northern leader and Targaryen heir, would have plenty of people willing to defend him. That’s why I was never really bothered by Grey Worm letting him live—Jon has an army. Grey Worm may not care about endangering himself, but he probably didn’t want more of his men to get killed.

The reason they probably planned for Jorah to join the Watch was because Jeor’s dying words to Sam were telling him to see that Jorah joins the Watch. I think Jorah is probably one of the secondary characters hasn’t or hadn’t thought of a solid end for yet.

As for Dany and Aegon, all I know is that somebody’s stealing at least one of those dragons. Dany can only ride Drogon, and the dragons can’t dance unless there are more riders.

Grey Worm ought to have held out for Tyrion’s execution.  No faction would have stuck up for the little shit.

Edited April 25, 2023 by SeanF

[The Bard of Banefort]

And now the end, Chapter 32:

• D&D were mortified about the coffee cup.
• Hibberd discusses some of the backlash to S8, admitting that "the amount of blowback was beyond what was anticipated."
• "A fan petition was signed by thousands asking HBO to remake season eight." On the contrary, James, it was over a million.
• As you may have expected, most of the people involved on the show think that the real reason fans were upset was because they didn't want the show to end. One of the executives is quoted saying, "If other people have a better idea, well, they can do it themselves."
• George--who hasn't been quoted at all on the last few seasons--says he's encountered people who consider the books fan fiction now that the show finished the story before he did, and people who desperately want him to "fix" what the show did wrong in the books.
• One executive mentions that the finales for Seinfeld and The Sopranos were also controversial at first, but eventually people came around. (It's only been four years, but so far people don't seem to be coming around).
• Fans at Comic-Con in 2019 were booing so much before the panel started that someone had to come out and ask them to respect the cast when they came onstage. The cast was met with support and applause, and Hibberd says there was no booing--which definitely isn't true. Fans started booing when Nikolaj defended the ending.
• George really cares about Emmys. I think he'll be crushed if HOTD doesn't win any this year.
• It actually is quite emotional reading the casts' thoughts on the show ending and what GOT meant to them. GOT died for me in S5, but there's no denying it had a huge impact on my life (it led me here, after all).

Thanks for reading my recaps, guys! I think I would have lost interest in this book pretty quickly if I hadn't done them. I'll post some more overall thoughts on FCKAD later.

 

[SeanF]

On 4/25/2023 at 6:03 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

You guys are going to love this one. I have no idea how Hibberd managed to write this without laughing himself silly (or maybe he did). Chapter 31:

• Gwendoline ships Brienne with Dany.
• In order to make Jaime's farewell with Brienne more intense, Nikolaj ad-libbed the lines "I don't love you. No one loves you." Thank God they cut that.
• Pilou thinks Euron got a happy ending. Gemma wishes Yara had been the one to kill him.
• Not mentioned: "I never really cared about them, innocent or otherwise."
• Rory was happy with Sandor's ending, but Cleganebowl (which was one of the last scenes filmed that season) was apparently a nightmare to shoot. MS describes it as his "least favorite experience on Thrones."
• Confirmation that the Iron Islands are part of the Seven--eh, Six Kingdoms.
• After Kit finished filming, Weiss told him, "Your watch has ended and it has been a hell of a watch." Kit gave another farewell speech where he said the show "will always be the greatest thing I ever do."
• Sam is still with Gilly after becoming Grand Maester.
• Weiss describes Tyrion as "the smartest guy" on the show (hey, I thought you said Sansa was the smartest person on the show?)
• Isaac admits Westeros is basically a surveillance state under Bran.
• Also not mentioned: Bronn as the Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden.
• Again, D&D seem to be trying to work out why Bran is king for themselves. Quote from Benioff: 
• Sophie wasn't allowed to keep her weird needle chain necklace (maybe they wanted it for one of those exhibits?)
• Cogman tries to explain away why Arya isn't considered batshit crazy but Dany is, saying she pulled herself back from the brink at the last moment (or rather, the Hound did) and that "she made the opposite choice from Daenerys--to embrace life over death." He also claims that "both of the Stark girls were taken to the edge, where humanity can get lost." Hmm? The only person Sansa ever killed was her abusive husband who was going to be executed either way. St. Tyrion's killed more people than her.
• Both Maisie and Lena wanted Arya to kill Cersei.
• Maisie seems to have a hard time believing that Arya would realistically turn away from revenge. She considers Arya's ending a happy one.
• Cogman on Jon's ending: 
• Hibberd claims that Jon joined the Free Folk. Kit: "Everyone has told him he belonged in the true north and he's finally going there. I don't think he's coming back."

It confirms my belief that the Seven Kingdoms would remain a shithole.

A surveillance state ruled by a non-human, sounds like a totalitarian nightmare.

Lucky Gilly.  Now she’ll be known as the Grand Maester’s whore, and her children as bastards.  Sam was a classic incel, who staked his claim to Gilly by forcing that bloody thimble on her.

Tyrion was a moron, after Season 4.  The smartest guy on the show?  My arse.

Sophie’s necklace is the sort of thing that gets advertised on Fetlife.

Arya enjoyed torture.  Had she been with the Northern army she’d have joined on the killing.

Kit has confirmed Jon’s ending was not happy.  Nothing in the show suggests that Jon wanted to live in the Wilderness, a place that could only have bad memories for him.

Edited April 27, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

The show ultimately became crapulent fanfiction.

No, opinions have not softened, over four years.  They’ve become harsher.

There is a lot of fanfic that is better than what D & D produced.

Booing members of the cast is never right.  They had to deliver this clusterfuck.  Booing the show runners is entirely right.

[csuszka1948]

53 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The show ultimately became crapulent fanfiction.

No, opinions have not softened, over four years.  They’ve become harsher.

There is a lot of fanfic that is better than what D & D produced.

Booing members of the cast is never right.  They had to deliver this clusterfuck.  Booing the show runners is entirely right.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think the showrunners were in a tough position.

They signed up to adapt George's story, not to finish it on their own. They never expected this scale of popularity, thinking that even getting until the RW would be a huge success.

 

Then they were told of GRRM's planned endings, which seem to be hugely subversive - Dany ends up being viewed as a mad tyrant (but probably only from the outside, not her own POV - just this cannot be portrayed that well in a show), Jaime doesn't get full redemption and dies with Cersei, Jon goes to live with the wildlings, Bran becomes King*. If I have to guess, whatever resolution GRRM has in store for the Long Night isn't a glorious battle where the heroes win - because if that was the case, D&D would have adopted it (as they created their own version with the Battle of Bastards), but something that is very hard to depict in screen (I have one or two ideas what could it be).

This kind of ending can work relatively well if there is a talented writer behind it, despite it doesn't fulfill fan expectations. I am pretty sure that George's ending - if he ever releases it - will also be a huge shock and disappointment for many people, but no one will be able to debate that it is well written. 

However, without a talented writer, it just falls apart and seems negative for negativity's sake.

It's also a problem if they left out some little, seemingly unimportant details in the first seasons which later become hugely important. For example, if the horn that Sam carries is really the Horn of Winter and it will be blown in TWOW, then the show has shot itself in the foot by leaving out any mention of it the first four seasons.

 

What would have been the correct solution? Probably hire someone to write a plot for them and creating their own ending - if it is possible and GRRM didn't insist on Bran being King, that is - instead of taking out crucial characters and details while trying to reach the same ending for the main characters. 

I think the fact that season 6 - the first season which is almost purely invented by the showrunners - was a relative success (despite every stupidity with Dorne, Ramsay, Euron) made D&D believe that they are actually good writers and didn't just have a stroke of luck. :-( 

 

*it also seems that they don't understand certain details of the ending though. I am 99% certain that Bran won't be 'inhuman' by the end of the story, and he won't be elected because he has magic powers.

Edited April 25, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Honestly, I think the showrunners were in a tough position.

They signed up to adapt George's story, not to finish it on their own. They never expected this scale of popularity, thinking that even getting until the RW would be a huge success.

 

Then they were told of GRRM's planned endings, which seem to be hugely subversive - Dany ends up being viewed as a mad tyrant (but probably only from the outside, not her own POV - just this cannot be portrayed that well in a show), Jaime doesn't get full redemption and dies with Cersei, Jon goes to live with the wildlings, Bran becomes King*. If I have to guess, whatever resolution GRRM has in store for the Long Night isn't a glorious battle where the heroes win - because if that was the case, D&D would have adopted it (as they created their own version with the Battle of Bastards), but something that is very hard to depict in screen (I have one or two ideas what could it be).

This kind of ending can work relatively well if there is a talented writer behind it, despite it doesn't fulfill fan expectations. I am pretty sure that George's ending - if he ever releases it - will also be a huge shock and disappointment for many people, but no one will be able to debate that it is well written. 

However, without a talented writer, it just falls apart and seems negative for negativity's sake.

It's also a problem if they left out some little, seemingly unimportant details in the first seasons which later become hugely important. For example, if the horn that Sam carries is really the Horn of Winter and it will be blown in TWOW, then the show has shot itself in the foot by leaving out any mention of it the first four seasons.

 

What would have been the correct solution? Probably hire someone to write a plot for them and creating their own ending - if it is possible and GRRM didn't insist on Bran being King, that is - instead of taking out crucial characters and details while trying to reach the same ending for the main characters. 

I think the fact that season 6 - the first season which is almost purely invented by the showrunners - was a relative success (despite every stupidity with Dorne, Ramsay, Euron) made D&D believe that they are actually good writers and didn't just have a stroke of luck. :-( 

 

*it also seems that they don't understand certain details of the ending though. I am 99% certain that Bran won't be 'inhuman' by the end of the story, and he won't be elected because he has magic powers.

@Joe Abercrombiewould have been the man to finish it.

His tales are bleak and cynical, but laced with enough black humour to make it bearable.

Admittedly, he’d have finished it with Bran, Sansa, and Tyrion privately giving the nod to Grey Worm to execute Jon (while publicly proclaiming the opposite) in order to ensure that the “true king” could never challenge their rule.

I do think that throughout Season 8, Jon’s claim was used as a pretext to strike at Daenerys, rather than something that anyone wanted for Jon.

 

[csuszka1948]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

@Joe Abercrombiewould have been the man to finish it.

His tales are bleak and cynical, but laced with enough black humour to make it bearable.

Admittedly, he’d have finished it with Bran, Sansa, and Tyrion privately giving the nod to Grey Worm to execute Jon (while publicly proclaiming the opposite) in order to ensure that the “true king” could never challenge their rule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL. You are talking about the execution of Orso, aren't you?

Yes, I have always felt that the show - unlike the books - is grimdark. In the first 6 seasons - and even in the last 2 when it came to the Starks - using excessive violence and dishonesty to achieve your goals has always worked out well and gaining legitimacy or the people's love and devotion don't matter one whit. 

The Northern lords didn't care about the RW or Ramsay's cruelty and still supported him, the population of KL didn't care about Cersei blowing up the sept and killing half of the major nobility and religious elite - despite previously rioting over starvation -, but kept supporting her and nobody batted an eye at the Sandsnakes killing their own family or Euron killing Balon. Even the Sparrow movement didn't form to oppose the mistreatment of smallfolk but to oppose homosexuality.

 

That's why it felt problematic when this principle was flipped in its head with Dany. Even killing Randyll Tarly and his son - who refused to kneel or take the black - was portrayed as an evil act which has bad repercussions (yes, burning them might be cruel, but execution is custom) for some reason. Attacking KL - a completely rational course of action which would have ended the war immediately as seen in S8E5 - was deemed unacceptable by Tyrion of all people.  

 

In the books we wouldn't need such a 'switch' in thinking, because the two sides of applying excessive violence are already shown - the houses revelling in it (Lannisters, Boltons, Freys) will probably fall in TWOW - and political legitimacy actually matters.

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I do think th at throughout Season 8, Jon’s claim was used as a pretext to strike at Daenerys, rather than something that anyone wanted for Jon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jon is not unambitious in the books, so when he learns his parentage he will be seriously thinking about staking his claim. I think the showrunners tried to project this internal conflict to the outside (because nobody has access to Jon's thought process in a show) in a sloppy way. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

LOL. You are talking about the execution of Orso, aren't you?

Yes, I have always felt that the show - unlike the books - is grimdark. In the first 6 seasons - and even in the last 2 when it came to the Starks - using excessive violence and dishonesty to achieve your goals has always worked out well and gaining legitimacy or the people's love and devotion doesn't matter one whit. 

The Northern lords didn't care about the RW or Ramsay's cruelty and still supported him, the population of KL didn't care about Cersei blowing up the sept and killing half of the major nobility and religious elite - despite previously rioting over starvation -, but kept supporting him and nobody batted an eye at the Sandsnakes killing their own family or Euron killing Balon. Even the Sparrow movement didn't form to oppose the mistreatment of smallfolk but to oppose homosexuality.

 

That's why it felt problematic when this principle was flipped in its head with Dany. Even killing Randyll Tarly and his son - who refused to kneel or take the black - was portrayed as an evil act which has repercussions (yes, burning them might be cruel, but execution is custom) for some reason. Attacking KL - a completely rational course of action which would have ended the war immediately as seen in S8E5 - was deemed unacceptable by Tyrion of all people.

 

In the books we wouldn't need such a 'switch' in thinking, because the two sides of applying excessive violence are already shown - the houses revelling in it (Lannisters, Boltons, Freys) will probably fall in TWOW - and political legitimacy actually matters.

Jon is not unambitious in the books, so when he learns his parentage he will be seriously thinking about staking his claim. I think the showrunners tried to project this internal conflict to the outside (because nobody has access to Jon's thought process in a show) in a sloppy way. 

Orso is who I had in mind!

Yes, there was this strange shifting of the ethical goalposts, in Season 7, to condemn Dany.  And the Tarlys were a revolting family!

The show was grimdark, but maybe D & D didn’t realise it.

WRT Jon’s claim, everyone had a selfish motive to promote it. Sam wanted revenge for his lovely father and brother.  Bran wanted power.  Varys wanted a malleable ruler. And Sansa wanted a Northern crown, or failing that, to be heir apparent.  At the end, no one even bothered to mention Jon’s claim.

I’d have more respected an ending, where the winners are toasting their success, and laughing about what a fool Jon was.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The impression I get is that D&D being giant control freaks is the main reason why the show was produced, year after year, on schedule, but it’s also the reason the writing went to hell. Just looking at other big fantasy shows, most of which are smaller than GOT was, most of them have huge gaps between seasons, are constantly losing writers, etc. Even other HBO shows—HOTD, The Idol, the Dune spin-off—have had release dates pushed back and major staff shake-ups. But because they’re control freaks, they only let one or two other people work on scripts, and they really needed new writers to come in and take over, or at the very least help them. It’s like the original Star Wars trilogy, which was a collaborative process, versus the prequels, where George Lucas controlled everything. One clearly turned out better than the other.

Edited May 29, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[The Bard of Banefort]

I really hope we get an unauthorized oral history of GOT one day that goes into all the topics Hibberd was either unwilling or unallowed to touch. That would make for a fun read.

[SeanF]

Had the two D’s worked on Star Wars, I’d have liked to see Slave Gilly, in skimpy costume, wrap a length of chain round the neck of Samwell the Hutt.

If John Bradley's intention was to portray Sam as a self-promoting, cowardly, hypocritical incel, I'd say he knocked it right out of the park.

Edited April 26, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think these families will be Westerlanders, the Tyrells and some other Reachlords associated with them. 

The remains of the first group will probably stick with Cersei, the Lady of CR and view both Targaryens as enemy (especially if they see Tyrion with Dany) or even if some of them joins Dany they won't be able to offer significant military support, the second (Garlan's army, representing maybe third of the forces of the Reach, but may suffer further losses against Euron) will join Dany.

The main question is really who Aegon marries and whether he manages to gain the support of the Vale and Riverlords (and a marriage with Sansa could secure it), because that would really tilt the balance on his side in terms of Westerosi support.

I know Arianne is the most popular theory, but really, neither of them would benefit such a marriage. Yes, Arianne might be able to seduce Aegon, but I don't see her motivation - she not only wants to make her father proud, but she objectively would have more power as the ruler of Dorne who has the ear of the King than as a queen. I really doubt that GRRM wanted to write her as a Cersei 2.0 - yes, they used the same methods to achieve their goals, but Arianne wasn't malicious and it seems she has learnt from her mistakes.

 

Obviously, all of that's just speculation but the second Dance would be a pretty one-sided affair if Dany gained the allegiance of the Vale and half of the Riverlords besides half/third of the Reach.

Dany linking up with the survivors of the Tyrells on the show is likely taken from the books, IMHO.  I expect Tommen, Margaery, Myrcella to be like the princes in the Tower, privately put to death by the new regime.  I doubt if Sansa would have any sympathy left for the Tyrells, after they framed her for Joffrey’s murder (which is where I think the Margaery/Sansa ship always founders).

Edited April 26, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

I've never really considered Brienne and Dany as a ship.

There was some chemistry between Yara and Dany (more than between Jon and Dany).  Yara would have been a much better choice for Dany, tough, loyal, supportive, everything that Jon was not.

Cersei/Dany has always been a guilty pleasure of mine, along with Cersei/Jon.  If Cersei can't have Rhaegar, she'll have his little sister and his son.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Aegon will likely overthrow the Tyrells and the Lannisters, especially since his “friends in the Reach” will be ready to stab them in the backs. Which means they’ll throw their support behind Dany so that she can restore them.

I think Cersei/Euron is probably from the books. TWOIAF mentioned many marriages between the Lannisters and the Ironborn prior to the Conquest. The only other option for Cersei besides fleeing west and teaming up with someone (we know it ain’t Stannis and it’s probably not Dany) is for her to be taken captive in the Red Keep like Alicent. And Cersei has fallen for a pretty face before.

Re: Cersei blowing up KL, I really think that’s just a fan theory that the show did as fan service, much like Cleganebowl. As far as I recall, Cersei doesn’t know about the wildfire under the city, right?