GOT Musings

[Le Cygne]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:55 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I can understand why people don’t like the ship, but I have a very different reading of this quote: 

Saying “I should have done this before leaving her for that dwarf” is like saying “I would jump off a bridge before going on a second date with that guy.” It’s not a confession; he’s saying that being raped and killed is better than being married to Tyrion, who he despises. It’s kind of like that line from the show, where the Hound says something like “if you die with a clean sword, I’ll rape your corpse.” Obviously he didn’t do that.

Not to mention, GRRM wrote the Blackwater episode, which had the “you won’t hurt me” exchange instead.

Exactly. It's just the way he talks. Sandorspeak, we called it. People rarely say what they mean, especially him. She thinks of him as her protector, as does he.

He talks beastly, but she kinda likes it (just like in Cocteau and Disney). She kissed the Hound and she liked it, a story of a knight and a fair maiden, by Sansa Stark.

Also... when the author has a picture of the two characters as Beauty and the Beast like the movie poster on the wall of his office (as in this case), that's a nice little nod.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

What I'm saying is I don't think what went down on the show even remotely resembles the book plot, because it's just too stupid.

Tyrion is manipulating him, and Jon should know this. It makes no sense that Dany would kill Jon's family. Dany is Jon's family, too.

These characters have been wanting this family connection all series long, then when they get together they kill or leave them. It's not a satisfying story.

Had we learned that Tyrion had been betraying Dany in favour of his siblings, and was manipulating Jon, out of a desire for revenge, at the end, then his story would have made far more sense.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that originally the wildfire was supposed to do most of the damage. That said, Dany still went on blowing up the city for the rest of the episode, so it’s not like she thought to stop when she saw what was happening, even in the original script.

My theory is that Jon will be the “treason for love” in the books, and that this was D&D’s way of incorporating that. A lot of the stuff George told them was just kind of slapped on without any cohesion (i.e. King Bran).

I think a major mistake the show made was trying to make every battle bigger and greater than the last. It’s clear that many people went into S8 expecting it to be an entire season of epic battles on scale with Battle of the Bastards, which just isn’t feasible. It would have taken an additional year to film and judging by all I’ve read about The Long Night now, I don’t think the cast would have agreed to an intensive schedule that would have lasted that long. What the show should have done, in my opinion, was forgo the giant battle and do a string of episodes with smaller fights and a psychological thriller-esque escape from the Walkers (the closest we got to this was Arya in the library). It could have been interspersed with regrouping, assisting the commoners, deserting Winterfell, etc. But that wasn’t the type of approach GOT was interested in.

Once the WW were South of the Wall, they could have raised the Dead from every graveyard, throwing the entire country into panic.

I remain of the view that the point of Dany’s vision in the HOTU was originally meant to show that the WW had reached Kings Landing, and brought the winter with them.

[Le Cygne]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Had we learned that Tyrion had been betraying Dany in favour of his siblings, and was manipulating Jon, out of a desire for revenge, at the end, then his story would have made far more sense.

Indeed. The show just made no sense. It was like someone threw random characters and random plots at the screen, and mixed them up with an eggbeater. They never actually told a story.

Characters are supposed to drive the story. But here, nonsensical plot drives the story. You can't believe any of it would ever really happen, it's a house of cards and not even from the same deck.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Indeed. The show just made no sense. It was like someone threw random characters and random plots at the screen, and mixed them up with an eggbeater. They never actually told a story.

Characters are supposed to drive the story. But here, nonsensical plot drives the story. You can't believe any of it would ever really happen, it's a house of cards and not even from the same deck.

The biggest flaw in the entire series, IMHO, was St.  Tyrion.  Changing a central protagonist from villain to saint made (a) Tyrion into someone who was grossly incompetent (b) upended the stories of everyone who came into contact with him.

[Le Cygne]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The biggest flaw in the entire series, IMHO, was St.  Tyrion.  Changing a central protagonist from villain to saint made (a) Tyrion into someone who was grossly incompetent (b) upended the stories of everyone who came into contact with him.

Good point, he's a main character who drives multiple plots with his barely concealed malevolence. He's narcissistic, misogynistic, power hungry... all these things bump up against other characters in his way, and move things along.

Turn him into a saint, and suddenly it all falls apart. So they had to change everyone else's story to fit this new St. Tyrion utter nonsense. So many characters lost their stories because of this, and they can't tell stories of their own.

So they just plugged in random plots, which are extremely jarring and unsatisfying, the appeal of the books was the characterization, and how that drove the story, and take that away, and it's just jingling keys at the audience.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Good point, he's a main character who drives multiple plots with his barely concealed malevolence. He's narcissistic, misogynistic, power hungry... all these things bump up against other characters in his way, and move things along.

Turn him into a saint, and suddenly it all falls apart. So they had to change everyone else's story to fit this new St. Tyrion utter nonsense. So many characters lost their stories because of this, and they can't tell stories of their own.

So they just plugged in random plots, which are mostly extremely jarring and unsatisfying, the appeal of the books was the characterization, and how that drove the story, and take that away, and it's just jingling keys at the audience.

It also made Daenerys, Jon, and others, look stupid for continuing to listen to someone whose plans constantly failed.

Tyrion, in real life, would have been dismissed in disgrace, after the destruction of Yara’s and the Dornish fleets.  

[Le Cygne]

47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It also made Daenerys, Jon, and others, look stupid for continuing to listen to someone whose plans constantly failed.

Tyrion, in real life, would have been dismissed in disgrace, after the destruction of Yara’s and the Dornish fleets.  

They basically punished all the other characters for not honoring Tyrion in the books. Tyrion was their self-insert character. They will not be ignored!

Jaime was a rapist, but Tyrion was not, the opposite of the books. Brienne lost her story, because Jaime lost his. Sansa rejected Tyrion, so she lost her own story. Sandor lost his story, because Sansa lost hers. And so on. Tyrion must look good!

Now we know Dany does not suffer fools, she's not gonna be undone by Tyrion, not easily, anyway. And if she is, she's gonna put up a good fight. Not go bonkers over a fool who then is fooled into killing her. They even absolved Tyrion of murdering Dany.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

They basically punished all the other characters for not honoring Tyrion in the books. Tyrion was their self-insert character. They will not be ignored!

Jaime was a rapist, but Tyrion was not, the opposite of the books. Brienne lost her story, because Jaime lost his. Sansa rejected Tyrion, so she lost her own story. Sandor lost his story, because Sansa lost hers. And so on. Tyrion must look good!

Now we know Dany does not suffer fools, she's not gonna be undone by Tyrion, not easily, anyway. And if she is, she's gonna put up a good fight. Not go bonkers over a fool who then is fooled into killing her. They even absolved Tyrion of murdering Dany.

And all the time, Tyrion failed upwards.  Until he became Hand, and got to work establishing new brothels, staffed by impoverished peasants.

[SeanF]

On 5/7/2023 at 10:05 PM, Le Cygne said:

Good for him (the bold).

I agree, nope. It seems like such a simple thing, to just show women are people, but some showrunners/directors can't be bothered to imagine what it's like to be one (even in this case, when the source material DID bother to imagine that).

Just saw The Doors movie (it's bad, don't bother) and there were naked women everywhere but only one butt shot of Jim Morrison. The story was about how women wanted him, and yet... the director never bothered to show what they wanted to see.

Out of nowhere, I had the weirdest GOT-related dream last night.

I'm an actor, and a member of the Communist Party, in a Soviet-occupied England.

Then, I'm taking part in a television spy drama, as the lead male character, along with Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams.  I'm actually the "villain", a senior KGB officer, who's secretly working for the CIA, and trying to bring down Soviet rule.  Sophie is the young intelligence officer who's trying to catch me out.  The drama is enormously popular, and we both turn up at some big convention organised by the Communist actors' guild. 

Where the hell does that come from?

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Out of nowhere, I had the weirdest GOT-related dream last night.

I'm an actor, and a member of the Communist Party, in a Soviet-occupied England.

Then, I'm taking part in a television spy drama, as the lead male character, along with Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams.  I'm actually the "villain", a senior KGB officer, who's secretly working for the CIA, and trying to bring down Soviet rule.  Sophie is the young intelligence officer who's trying to catch me out.  The drama is enormously popular, and we both turn up at some big convention organised by the Communist actors' guild. 

Where the hell does that come from?

That honestly sounds brilliant.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

That honestly sounds brilliant.

Thanks.

I did write a Death of Stalin fanfiction, with a Sansa-type character in it, but the plot is nothing like that in the dream!

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Thanks.

I did write a Death of Stalin fanfiction, with a Sansa-type character in it, but the plot is nothing like that in the dream!

Maybe you ought to try writing it?

[StarkTullies]

On 5/7/2023 at 12:48 PM, SeanF said:

My understanding is that having Dany swerve aside to burn civilians was added after the scripts had been written.

So, while, as originally envisaged, civilians were killed when the Red Keep was destroyed, and at the hands of enraged soldiers, it was far more plainly an act of war than what was eventually shown.

That would make some of Jon or Tyrion's conversation make a little more sense, but I don't think that is the case.  I admit I don't follow "behind the scenes" much, but I did see clips of the script reading.  Everything in those clips made it into the show, so I assume it was essentially the "final version".  I also remember Emilia Clarke talking about her reaction after reading the scripts, and she seemed to be shocked by what Dany did rather than being upset that "Jon murdered her".

I also heard it claimed that the green fire in Kings Landing was remnant of the original filming when Cersei blew up the city with wildfire... and that doesn't make sense.  If that was the case, it would be all green... not green fire mixed in with the regular fire.  Frankly I'm surprised the showrunners remembered there was wildfire hidden throughout the city with everything else they forgot.

This is what I think... not a firm argument.  Have these theories ever been officially verified?

On 5/7/2023 at 12:48 PM, SeanF said:

If anything, Cersei should have been kerb-stomped in Season 7, leaving the whole of Season 8 to deal with the the Others. Give the Night King a victory in the North with the final fight at the Trident, or the capital.

I half agree, but I think the "real story" will have all the threats mixed together at a time: the "ice threat" of the Others and their wights, the "fire threat" of the dragons and their riders, and the non-supernatural human political threat.  And I think they will be intertwined, rather than the story focusing entirely on the "ice threat" and then neutralizing it completely, only to flip a switch to the "fire threat".  ASOIAF is more complex than that; GOT is not.

I would have liked Cersei to eliminated sooner simply because she should never have been the "final villain" (before "subverting expectations" and making it Dany instead).  Cersei is a menace but never should never have been a "brilliant mastermind": her superior book version is anything but.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It’s also possible that Tyrion will be the treason for love, in that he won’t be able to turn on Jaime in the end. But I still think Jon is the most likely.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s also possible that Tyrion will be the treason for love, in that he won’t be able to turn on Jaime in the end. But I still think Jon is the most likely.

Unless Tyrion was subconsciously making things harder for Daenerys out of his conflicting loyalties (which she does call him on in the show).

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Unless Tyrion was subconsciously making things harder for Daenerys out of his conflicting loyalties (which she does call him on in the show).

I would have concluded that Tyrion was a traitor - based upon his actions, rather than what we were told.

The gist of his advice is that Dany should sacrifice her allies and soldiers, in order to spare his siblings.

Tyrion’s execution is something that all factions should have agreed upon at the end.  Grey Worm, the Prince of Dorne, and Yara for betraying Daenerys.  The others for bringing Daenerys and her soldiers to the capital.  The Starks and Edmure, for serving, at the highest level, a regime that brought terror to the Riverlands, and perpetrated the Red Wedding.

I can only conclude that Bran chose him, Bronn, and Sam, because they would be entirely his creatures.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I would have concluded that Tyrion was a traitor - based upon his actions, rather than what we were told.

The gist of his advice is that Dany should sacrifice her allies and soldiers, in order to spare his siblings.

Tyrion’s execution is something that all factions should have agreed upon at the end.  Grey Worm, the Prince of Dorne, and Yara for betraying Daenerys.  The others for bringing Daenerys and her soldiers to the capital.  The Starks and Edmure, for serving, at the highest level, a regime that brought terror to the Riverlands, and perpetrated the Red Wedding.

I can only conclude that Bran chose him, Bronn, and Sam, because they would be entirely his creatures.

Isn't that what I'm saying? He's clearly gotten cold feet judging by his actions throughout Season 7 because he's going up against Jaime. On the other hand Grey Worm allows Tyrion to speak even though he said "You do not speak" (slight paraphrase there).

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/8/2023 at 12:25 AM, SeanF said:

Once the WW were South of the Wall, they could have raised the Dead from every graveyard, throwing the entire country into panic.

Which should have been taken into consideration by whoever thought it was a good idea to put civilians in the crypts.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Isn't that what I'm saying? He's clearly gotten cold feet judging by his actions throughout Season 7 because he's going up against Jaime. On the other hand Grey Worm allows Tyrion to speak even though he said "You do not speak" (slight paraphrase there).

The show runners kept shying away from the implications of what they were showing.

Sansa was not “the smartest person I’ve ever met”.  But, she was sly and manipulative and good at sowing discord. Sam was a self-promoting coward, who treated Gilly with disdain.  Tyrion was (at the very least) trying to ensure that his siblings did not lose the war, in breach of his duties as Hand.  Varys was a weathervane who had loyalty to no one, but claimed he did it “for the Realm”.  And, Bran was objectively evil.

As I said upthread, I could have lived with the ending, had final seasons been written by @Joe Abercrombie, as a grimdark tale.  The showrunners just could not pull that off.