GOT Musings

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The show runners kept shying away from the implications of what they were showing.

Sansa was not “the smartest person I’ve ever met”.  But, she was sly and manipulative and good at sowing discord. Sam was a self-promoting coward, who treated Gilly with disdain.  Tyrion was (at the very least) trying to ensure that his siblings did not lose the war, in breach of his duties as Hand.  Varys was a weathervane who had loyalty to no one, but claimed he did it “for the Realm”.  And, Bran was objectively evil.

As I said upthread, I could have lived with the ending, had final seasons been written by @Joe Abercrombie, as a grimdark tale.  The showrunners just could not pull that off.

Again, Daenerys calls Tyrion on his screwups. He doesn't answer her question.

As for the grimdark tale, the books are already trending that way with Daenerys contemplating Viserys' advice (Dragons plant no trees), Sansa under Littlefinger, Bran with Bloodraven, Arya with the Faceless Men, Jon getting stabbed and not coming back normal (GRRM hates it when they do), and Brienne leading Jaime to Lady Stoneheart (another example of coming back wrong). It's going to take a spanner like Gollum with the One Ring to make things worthwhile.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Something the show set up and then dropped was Daenerys getting pregnant. But how can Jon die, get resurrected, and then still sire a child? Even if his soul goes into Ghost, that still feels like a cop-out.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something the show set up and then dropped was Daenerys getting pregnant. But how can Jon die, get resurrected, and then still sire a child? Even if his soul goes into Ghost, that still feels like a cop-out.

Along with Cersei’s miscarriage.

I guess the showrunners couldn’t really find a way to justify Jon killing his own child.

[csuszka1948]

On 5/8/2023 at 5:25 AM, SeanF said:

Once the WW were South of the Wall, they could have raised the Dead from every graveyard, throwing the entire country into panic.

I remain of the view that the point of Dany’s vision in the HOTU was originally meant to show that the WW had reached Kings Landing, and brought the winter with them.

 

I am pretty sure that GRRM is not planning on having the Others only appear in the North. 

I think once the Wall falls, they will show up in every place where it is cold enough during the night, and because it snowed in KL, this means everywhere north to the Stormlands and the Reach. Their armies will probably converge at the Riverlands and the Trident.

[Le Cygne]

On 5/10/2023 at 8:24 AM, SeanF said:

I would have concluded that Tyrion was a traitor - based upon his actions, rather than what we were told.

The gist of his advice is that Dany should sacrifice her allies and soldiers, in order to spare his siblings.

Tyrion’s execution is something that all factions should have agreed upon at the end.  Grey Worm, the Prince of Dorne, and Yara for betraying Daenerys.  The others for bringing Daenerys and her soldiers to the capital.  The Starks and Edmure, for serving, at the highest level, a regime that brought terror to the Riverlands, and perpetrated the Red Wedding.

Oh good point, one need only look to how Grey Worm, the Prince of Dorne, and Yara (at least Asha was spared being in the show) reacted (or didn't react) to see how forced it all was.

It's like they pinned notes on Tyrion, Dany, and Jon: You good, you bad, you stupid. The rest of you, play into it in somehow, or just stand there and go along with it. Don't ask why. There is no reason.

On 5/10/2023 at 8:24 AM, SeanF said:

I can only conclude that Bran chose him, Bronn, and Sam, because they would be entirely his creatures.

Yes!

Edited May 14, 2023 by Le Cygne

[The Bard of Banefort]

For all the complaints show fans have about S8’s plot holes, bad dialogue, and overall bad writing, I realize that if Jon had slain the NK and Dany ended up on the Iron Throne as the beloved goddess-queen, most of them would have been thrilled and S8 really would be regarded as the Best Season Eva, with just us disgruntled book fans complaining about the rest of it. That’s probably why D&D got as lazy with the scripts as they did—most people overlooked the bad writing in the past, so they didn’t think they needed to spend more time on it. They probably could have written something better if they had tried. 

[SilverGhost]

I always got the impression that D&D were just rushing towards a conclusion and just made whatever leaps of logic or story they required to get there. Probably were burned out, under pressure, with a desire to move on to new projects and pushing to an ending they didn't really understand. Doesn't excuse how things ended up but I suppose I can understand the whys behind the final two seasons crashing like a dragon struck with a scorpion bolt fired by a "forgotten" fleet. 

The most frustrating thing for me is that I really loved the show at certain points, especially in the first couple of seasons, but the ending pretty much destroys my ability to enjoy it on a rewatch. I tried, I honestly did, but the omissions that I was once able to overlook/tolerate now stand out as the beginning of the cracks that would lead to the messy last few seasons. It's tough enough watching characters making the bad decisions that will lead to their downfall without having to witness where the creators were doing the same on a meta level. 

Even the most epic moments lose some of their punch when you remember that as riveting and amazing as those moments were, a major botch is only X number of episodes ahead. 

[$erPounce]

I have gathered the scores that each GOT/HOTD episode received on various sites. This way one can see how well each episode was received by those who watched it.

I have the data from Westeros.org,Tower of the Hand (both ASOIAF fansites) and IMDB. If there are any other sites to add, please let me know.

You can sort the data from high to low or vice versa if you like.

I made this about seven months ago: HERE

Some of my findings:
- I am surprised that GOT season 7 received higher scores overall than GOT season 6.
- On all three sites, there are only two HOTD episodes in the top 20 best-scoring episodes (S1E8 The Lord of the Tides and S1E10 The Black Queen).
- The least liked HOTD episode on Westeros.org is S1E9 The Green Council. On the other two sites, it is S1E6 The Princess and the Queen. On IMDB, that one is among the top 10 lowest rated episodes. That episode scores lower there than the GOT episode S6E8 No One (in which Arya is attacked by The Waif and with the parkour in Braavos)
- The HOTD episode S1E9 The Green Council has a higher score on IMDB and The Tower of the Hand than half of the episodes from House of the Dragon. This episode is very popular with certain audiences.
- On IMDB, only three HOTD episodes have a higher score than the GOT episode S7E6 Beyond the Wall (with the wight hunt). 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I have gathered the scores that each GOT/HOTD episode received on various sites. This way one can see how well each episode was received by those who watched it.

I have the data from Westeros.org,Tower of the Hand (both ASOIAF fansites) and IMDB. If there are any other sites to add, please let me know.

You can sort the data from high to low or vice versa if you like.

I made this about seven months ago: HERE

Some of my findings:
- I am surprised that GOT season 7 received higher scores overall than GOT season 6.
- On all three sites, there are only two HOTD episodes in the top 20 best-scoring episodes (S1E8 The Lord of the Tides and S1E10 The Black Queen).
- The least liked HOTD episode on Westeros.org is S1E9 The Green Council. On the other two sites, it is S1E6 The Princess and the Queen. On IMDB, that one is among the top 10 lowest rated episodes. That episode scores lower there than the GOT episode S6E8 No One (in which Arya is attacked by The Waif and with the parkour in Braavos)
- The HOTD episode S1E9 The Green Council has a higher score on IMDB and The Tower of the Hand than half of the episodes from House of the Dragon. This episode is very popular with certain audiences.
- On IMDB, only three HOTD episodes have a higher score than the GOT episode S7E6 Beyond the Wall (with the wight hunt). 

I’m surprised about Season 7, because it was just so silly.

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I have gathered the scores that each GOT/HOTD episode received on various sites. This way one can see how well each episode was received by those who watched it.

I have the data from Westeros.org,Tower of the Hand (both ASOIAF fansites) and IMDB. If there are any other sites to add, please let me know.

You can sort the data from high to low or vice versa if you like.

I made this about seven months ago: HERE

Some of my findings:
- I am surprised that GOT season 7 received higher scores overall than GOT season 6.
- On all three sites, there are only two HOTD episodes in the top 20 best-scoring episodes (S1E8 The Lord of the Tides and S1E10 The Black Queen).
- The least liked HOTD episode on Westeros.org is S1E9 The Green Council. On the other two sites, it is S1E6 The Princess and the Queen. On IMDB, that one is among the top 10 lowest rated episodes. That episode scores lower there than the GOT episode S6E8 No One (in which Arya is attacked by The Waif and with the parkour in Braavos)
- The HOTD episode S1E9 The Green Council has a higher score on IMDB and The Tower of the Hand than half of the episodes from House of the Dragon. This episode is very popular with certain audiences.
- On IMDB, only three HOTD episodes have a higher score than the GOT episode S7E6 Beyond the Wall (with the wight hunt). 

I remember looking at the HOTD scores for the season finale and being surprised that despite having a high score, far fewer people reviewed it than the few before it.

A lot of people got attached to young Rhaenyra and were upset when she was replaced in E6. Also I think viewers were getting tired of the childbirth scenes by that point.

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:52 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

For all the complaints show fans have about S8’s plot holes, bad dialogue, and overall bad writing, I realize that if Jon had slain the NK and Dany ended up on the Iron Throne as the beloved goddess-queen, most of them would have been thrilled and S8 really would be regarded as the Best Season Eva, with just us disgruntled book fans complaining about the rest of it. That’s probably why D&D got as lazy with the scripts as they did—most people overlooked the bad writing in the past, so they didn’t think they needed to spend more time on it. They probably could have written something better if they had tried. 

I guess that's what it is, they had two years to work with for the last season.

[The Bard of Banefort]

George is apparently a huge fan of Tad Williams and drew inspiration from The Dragonbone Chair, but did GRRM inadvertently prevent it from ever being adapted to screen (at least for another twenty years)? The plot sound so similar to AGOT and, thanks to HOTD, it would be the “other dragon show” if they kept the title. 

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

George is apparently a huge fan of Tad Williams and drew inspiration from The Dragonbone Chair, but did GRRM inadvertently prevent it from ever being adapted to screen (at least for another twenty years)? The plot sound so similar to AGOT and, thanks to HOTD, it would be the “other dragon show” if they kept the title. 

The Norns are almost identical to the Others.  However, given that D & D made the White Walkers quite different to the Others, an adaptation might work.  One of the things I like about the latest books is that we get to see the Norns' POV.  Their society is completely dystopian, their Queen is a tyrant, their treatment of most of their human captives is horrible.  But, they do have reasons for the way they act as they do, whereas so far, we've learned nothing about the Other's reasons, in the saga, and precious little, in the show.

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Norns are almost identical to the Others.  However, given that D & D made the White Walkers quite different to the Others, an adaptation might work.  One of the things I like about the latest books is that we get to see the Norns' POV.  Their society is completely dystopian, their Queen is a tyrant, their treatment of most of their human captives is horrible.  But, they do have reasons for the way they act as they do, whereas so far, we've learned nothing about the Other's reasons, in the saga, and precious little, in the show.

Well the White Walkers (the ones in the show) themselves appear to be a living weapon designed to counteract people that backfires, which appear to fit the books and show's theme of good intentions blowing up in someone's face.

[csuszka1948]

On 5/8/2023 at 5:25 AM, SeanF said:

Once the WW were South of the Wall, they could have raised the Dead from every graveyard, throwing the entire country into panic.

I remain of the view that the point of Dany’s vision in the HOTU was originally meant to show that the WW had reached Kings Landing, and brought the winter with them.

 

 

 

I don't think so, the Red Keep was in ruins, so someone must have blown it up. 

An idea that I have recently read is that it is an Ozymandias copy, with ice replacing the sand - Dany the antique traveler seeing the work of Aegon (Ozymandias), king of king in ruins and only the Iron Throne remaning to attest his 'greatness'. 

Yes, this requires someone other than Dany to blow up KL, but I don't think it's impossible.

1) In George's original outline the Dance with Dragons - Dany's invasion -, and the war with the Others (book called Winds of Winter) were both planned to be one-one book. After writing ACOK, he planned a 6-book series and Dany to arrive in Westeros in the 4th book.

However, Dany won't arrive until the end of Winds and it seems ludicrous even for GRRM to believe that both a Dance between Dany&Aegon and the invasion of the Others - something that was planned to be 2 books even in the original outline! - can be told in 1 book. 

Cannot the new 'Dance of Dragons' represent Aegon's invasion instead of Dany's? It would explain many things.

 

2) The cyvasse game between Aegon and Tyrion is a possible (and pretty heavy) foreshadowing that Aegon will be killed by a dragon (Euron?), while 'his dragon' (Dany) will be too far to save him. If Aegon takes KL while Euron flies in to claim it in the name of Dany, he (or Cersei, hiding in the Red Keep) could trigger the wildfire:

"How can she help but love you then, I ask you?" Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four. "

The prince stared at the playing board. "My dragon-"

"-is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle."

"But you said-"

Tyrion certainly seems that Aegon made a mistake by going west instead of east, by abandoning Dany and her dragons and start his conquest on his own.

Yes, thanks to Cersei's mismanagement, Aegon seems to be in a relatively good position, but how can he defend himself against a sorcerer-type figure like Euron without a dragon? 

I am not saying that this will be true, but narratively it would make sense. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

On 5/10/2023 at 7:17 PM, SeanF said:

Along with Cersei’s miscarriage.

I guess the showrunners couldn’t really find a way to justify Jon killing his own child.

 

Honestly, it would be better. In the show Dany was pictured as Hitler 2.0, burning the entire KL down, and still Tyrion only managed to convince Jon to kill him by reminding him that his family (the Starks) won't be safe from her.

[csuszka1948]

On 5/16/2023 at 4:52 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

For all the complaints show fans have about S8’s plot holes, bad dialogue, and overall bad writing, I realize that if Jon had slain the NK and Dany ended up on the Iron Throne as the beloved goddess-queen, most of them would have been thrilled and S8 really would be regarded as the Best Season Eva, with just us disgruntled book fans complaining about the rest of it. That’s probably why D&D got as lazy with the scripts as they did—most people overlooked the bad writing in the past, so they didn’t think they needed to spend more time on it. They probably could have written something better if they had tried. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't need that.

For example, this youtuber shows an ending that is similarly subversive but miles better than the original one, I recommend you to watch it:

HelloFutureMe - Let's Rewrite the End of Game of Thrones [ Part 1 of 2 ]

HelloFutureMe - Let's Rewrite the End of Game of Thrones [ Part 2 of 2 ]

 

I don't agree with every aspect of it - the showrunners were probably forced to make Bran King, and that's what they should have stuck to - but his dialogue and twists are a lot better and more grounded than the original one and almost every character gets a similar ending but with a better executed.

Dany's tragic ending (dying amongst the people of KL), Cersei temporarily 'winning' (which would make sense considering all shit advice Tyrion has given to Dany), Davos being killed by wildfire, Arya giving Sandor the gift of mercy (which she denied him at the end of season 4), and Tyrion giving up Casterly Rock to Bronn are especially creative.

Edited May 19, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

We don't need that.

For example, this youtuber shows an ending that is similarly subversive but miles better than the original one, I recommend you to watch it:

HelloFutureMe - Let's Rewrite the End of Game of Thrones [ Part 1 of 2 ]

HelloFutureMe - Let's Rewrite the End of Game of Thrones [ Part 2 of 2 ]

 

I don't agree with every aspect of it - the showrunners were probably forced to make Bran King, and that's what they should have stuck to - but his dialogue and twists are a lot better and more grounded than the original one and almost every character gets a similar ending but with a better executed.

Dany's tragic ending (dying amongst the people of KL), Cersei temporarily 'winning' (which would make sense considering all shit advice Tyrion has given to Dany), Davos being killed by wildfire, Arya giving Sandor the gift of mercy (which she denied him at the end of season 4), and Tyrion giving up Casterly Rock to Bronn are especially creative.

My preferred crack ending would be:

1. Jon stabs Dany, only for the dagger to snag on the chain mail sewn into the lining of her dress (medieval people knew all about the importance of such body armour.)

She says “Do you think I’d be so f***ing stupid as to walk around a city I’ve just sacked and burned without protection?”

2.  Jon is dragged off to her bedchamber.  He’s tied down on the bed.  She proceeds to disrobe seductively, before riding him hard.  He decides there are worse fates than being the boyfriend of a beautiful tyrant.

She tells him, he can redeem himself, by executing Tyrion.

3.  Jon burns Tyrion at the stake.  The Dothraki and Unsullied are present, the latter drumming their spears on the ground with approval.  The Dothraki leader says “Now you great Khal, worthy husband to Khaleesi.”

4.  The episode ends with Jon and Dany marching North to execute Sansa, with Drogon screeching in triumph, overhead.

 

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

We don't need that.

For example, this youtuber shows an ending that is similarly subversive but miles better than the original one, I recommend you to watch it:

HelloFutureMe - Let's Rewrite the End of Game of Thrones [ Part 1 of 2 ]

HelloFutureMe - Let's Rewrite the End of Game of Thrones [ Part 2 of 2 ]

 

I don't agree with every aspect of it - the showrunners were probably forced to make Bran King, and that's what they should have stuck to - but his dialogue and twists are a lot better and more grounded than the original one and almost every character gets a similar ending but with a better executed.

Dany's tragic ending (dying amongst the people of KL), Cersei temporarily 'winning' (which would make sense considering all shit advice Tyrion has given to Dany), Davos being killed by wildfire, Arya giving Sandor the gift of mercy (which she denied him at the end of season 4), and Tyrion giving up Casterly Rock to Bronn are especially creative.

It’s much better than what we got, but I mostly dislike Jon’s story arc.

Jon is actually shirking his duty, to step up and rule a shattered nation.  There’s nothing admirable about self-abnegation.  Nor do I think Jon would throw in the towel, after Cersei set off the wildfire.

If there's a trope I've come to detest it is that the greatest leaders are those who reject power.  Truly competent and public-spirited people step up to the mark.

As for King Tyrion?  Simply, no.

Edited May 19, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think so, the Red Keep was in ruins, so someone must have blown it up. 

An idea that I have recently read is that it is an Ozymandias copy, with ice replacing the sand - Dany the antique traveler seeing the work of Aegon (Ozymandias), king of king in ruins and only the Iron Throne remaning to attest his 'greatness'. 

Yes, this requires someone other than Dany to blow up KL, but I don't think it's impossible.

1) In George's original outline the Dance with Dragons - Dany's invasion -, and the war with the Others (book called Winds of Winter) were both planned to be one-one book. After writing ACOK, he planned a 6-book series and Dany to arrive in Westeros in the 4th book.

However, Dany won't arrive until the end of Winds and it seems ludicrous even for GRRM to believe that both a Dance between Dany&Aegon and the invasion of the Others - something that was planned to be 2 books even in the original outline! - can be told in 1 book. 

Cannot the new 'Dance of Dragons' represent Aegon's invasion instead of Dany's? It would explain many things.

 

2) The cyvasse game between Aegon and Tyrion is a possible (and pretty heavy) foreshadowing that Aegon will be killed by a dragon (Euron?), while 'his dragon' (Dany) will be too far to save him. If Aegon takes KL while Euron flies in to claim it in the name of Dany, he (or Cersei, hiding in the Red Keep) could trigger the wildfire:

"How can she help but love you then, I ask you?" Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four. "

The prince stared at the playing board. "My dragon-"

"-is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle."

"But you said-"

Tyrion certainly seems that Aegon made a mistake by going west instead of east, by abandoning Dany and her dragons and start his conquest on his own.

Yes, thanks to Cersei's mismanagement, Aegon seems to be in a relatively good position, but how can he defend himself against a sorcerer-type figure like Euron without a dragon? 

I am not saying that this will be true, but narratively it would make sense. 

If Dany burning Kings Landing is a thing, my favoured scenario would be that her forces are facing defeat, after bitter street fighting, (somewhat similar to the video you linked to), at the hands of soldiers who have barricaded themselves, and who are using the civilians as human shields.

That’s when she makes the choice to unleash fire on soldiers and civilians alike.  Now that is cruel, but it’s also what almost any military commander would do.  Certainly what our own leaders would do, without possessing the technology for precision bombing.