GOT Musings

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:12 AM, SeanF said:

In the scenario we're given, in that video, Jon is by far the best person to unify the country, with Cersei and Daenerys both dead.  

Not least, because with the various lords once again vying for power, the king has to be an experienced soldier.

Though wouldn't GRRM argue against that viewpoint since both Robert and Ned, who were both veteran soldiers, were shown to be poor rulers?

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:55 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I can understand why people don’t like the ship, but I have a very different reading of this quote: 

Saying “I should have done this before leaving her for that dwarf” is like saying “I would jump off a bridge before going on a second date with that guy.” It’s not a confession; he’s saying that being raped and killed is better than being married to Tyrion, who he despises. It’s kind of like that line from the show, where the Hound says something like “if you die with a clean sword, I’ll rape your corpse.” Obviously he didn’t do that.

Not to mention, GRRM wrote the Blackwater episode, which had the “you won’t hurt me” exchange instead.

This is a long way of me saying that even though he was being aggressive, I don’t think the Hound had any intention of raping her.

On the other hand I could see it happening since GRRM has a liking for age gap relationships with a side order of Stockholm (read: Drogo and Daenerys).

[Le Cygne]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:25 AM, SeanF said:

It’s much better than what we got, but I mostly dislike Jon’s story arc.

Jon is actually shirking his duty, to step up and rule a shattered nation.  There’s nothing admirable about self-abnegation.  Nor do I think Jon would throw in the towel, after Cersei set off the wildfire.

If there's a trope I've come to detest it is that the greatest leaders are those who reject power.  Truly competent and public-spirited people step up to the mark.

As for King Tyrion?  Simply, no.

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:12 PM, SeanF said:

I’d say her fatal flaw is self doubt, bordering on self-loathing, causing her to second-guess all she does.

I think she has self doubt for a good reason, her good intentions, she starts out wanting something good, like GRRM said ("George told me that Daenerys wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people") but finds the reality of ruling very difficult. So she second guesses herself.

(There's also her repeated longing for a simpler life, living in a house with a red door, that showed us that she envisioned another kind of life for herself, but the show always shirked showing the interior lives of the characters, which are so important, and could have been shown in many ways.)

GRRM said his ending will be very different from the show. I think Bran will perhaps be lord of Winterfell, because he's so tied to the north, but that's just my feeling about the story. None of us really knows how things will end for everyone, it could be any number of ways, as long as it fits what went before.

With Dany, if she does fall, I think it would be a much better story for her good intentions to be her undoing, that's tragedy. Instead they gave us farce.

Most of the audience liked Dany. As badly as they bungled the character, there's something good that shone through. It was a stupid season, insulting to the audience in many ways, but what they did to Dany was a glaring mistake, as shown by the instant audience backlash.

They stated emphatically she's not mad!, then suddenly, on a dime, made her madder than a hatter. Their game of going in different directions regardless of what had gone before ("creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen") ran into the wall of the show ending.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Though wouldn't GRRM argue against that viewpoint since both Robert and Ned, who were both veteran soldiers, were shown to be poor rulers?

But with war threatening, you need a king who can fight.

I’m sure Ned was competent as ruler of the North, even if was out of his depth, in the capital.

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

Blackwater was probably the best episode of them all.

[csuszka1948]

14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

 

 

 

Yes, Jon will rise to the occasion when the War for the Dawn comes. However, his place is with the wildlings and the freedom their life provides, not sitting on the IT.-

14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

 

 

 

Honestly, GRRM also fucked them up by not finishing even Winds despite his promises.

AFFC and ADWD are pretty much unadaptable - even GRRM had to split it into 2 books geographically, so if he split it into 2 books chronologically, the ending of the first book (aka season 5) would have been a huge letdown - and because Winds is not released, the showrunners do not even know which elements will be the most important.

That said, season 8 could have been much better if they weren't overconfident in their writing abilities and didn't stick with their idea of Jon killing Dany. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

Anyway, this makes me think that with regards to the ending, the showrunners actually tried to follow what GRRM told them very roughly:

1) Act 1: Stark-Lannister war - first 3 books, first 4 seasons. Ends with Lannisters winning, Winterfell taken, Starks dispersed accross the world, Tyrion framed for murder and fleeing

2) Act 2: 'Targaryen invasion' - next 3 books, Season 5 and 6. Ends with Stannis burning Shireen, Jon elected King of the North, Tommen and Myrcella (+Aegon in the books) dead, Mace, Kevan and Margaery killed, Cersei blowing up wildfire (in the books probably entire KL), Dany and Tyrion departing Essos, ferried by Ironborn ships. The showrunners tried to simplify this immensely because even GRRM hasn't managed to cut this 'Gordian knot' for a decade and they couldn't introduce tons of new characters to a show which already has a large cast. 

3) Act 3: invasion of the Others - Dream of Spring, Seasons 7 and 8. The final antagonists are Cersei (in the books in CR), Euron and the Others. I suspect that GRRM only has loose plans for this book, so the showrunners had to improvise for the most part and did it terribly.

 

That said, I personally think his plans for the endings of most characters are similar. I suspect Tyrion won't be Lord of CR though, Arya won't explore the world alone, Jeyne will 'play' Arya Stark - with the 'Stark' line continuing with her children, because Sansa won't remarry -,  and Dany (after calling the Great Council in which Bran is elected King) will depart from Westeros with the Dothraki, among whom she loved living the most. 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:28 AM, Le Cygne said:

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

Aragorn was principled, but he really, really, wanted to be King of Gondor.  And, he made it very plain that he viewed himself as the true king of Gondor, throughout LOTR.

Aragorn would not have schemed and murdered to become king, but he expected his due, after achieving success as a war leader.

Turning Jon into someone who shied away from leadership was another disservice the two D’s did to his character.

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:46 AM, SeanF said:

But with war threatening, you need a king who can fight.

I’m sure Ned was competent as ruler of the North, even if was out of his depth, in the capital.

Unfortunately we don't see much of Ned as a ruler in the North so however good a job he did seems on the surface to be informed ability.

[csuszka1948]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:13 AM, SeanF said:

Turning Jon into someone who shied away from leadership was another disservice the two D’s did to his character.

 

I think Jon ending up with the wildlings could still make sense. He enjoyed the life amongst them and integrating them into the Westerosi society is a monumental task and he is by far most suited to carry it out.

As for the Iron Throne, I imagine the menial tasks of ruling will be probably performed by Tyrion, who is pretty suited for it (if not for his horrible reputation), while the direction and occasional corrections will be issued by Bran (although his election as King still makes little sense).

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think Jon ending up with the wildlings could still make sense. He enjoyed the life amongst them and integrating them into the Westerosi society is a monumental task and he is by far most suited to carry it out.

As for the Iron Throne, I imagine the menial tasks of ruling will be probably performed by Tyrion, who is pretty suited for it (if not for his horrible reputation), while the direction and occasional corrections will be issued by Bran (although his election as King still makes little sense).

Did he though?

It seems to me that he was riddled with guilt about Ygritte, not so much truly about getting her pregnant, as the knowledge that his actions would lead to her death.

It’s why the argument (from the show) that they’re doing Jon a kindness by sending him into the wilderness rings so hollow.

A man who is struggling with the guilt of killing one lover is returned to a place where he will struggle with the guilt of betraying another.

[Fist of the Dragon]

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Did he though?

It seems to me that he was riddled with guilt about Ygritte, not so much truly about getting her pregnant, as the knowledge that his actions would lead to her death.

It’s why the argument (from the show) that they’re doing Jon a kindness by sending him into the wilderness rings so hollow.

A man who is struggling with the guilt of killing one lover is returned to a place where he will struggle with the guilt of betraying another.

You've probably heard this before, but the main reason I don't like Jon in the show at all is that these two idiots changed Jon from a very complex Byronic hero (you know the characteristics of these types of heroes) to a naive good boy who has simple intentions and a very pure heart. but this is not the end of the work, and in the final seasons, they lower his intelligence to the level of algae. Daenerys has nothing left to say. So much has been said in this forum about how Showrunners burned her character that I don't want to bore you with words. (Consider how much wiser Dany is in the books than in the show and This is the reason why I really like her character in the books, unlike the show).
Unfortunately, they also bring similar disasters on other important characters such as Sansa, Tyrion, Bran and especially Varys.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

You've probably heard this before, but the main reason I don't like Jon in the show at all is that these two idiots changed Jon from a very complex Byronic hero (you know the characteristics of these types of heroes) to a naive good boy who has simple intentions and a very pure heart. but this is not the end of the work, and in the final seasons, they lower his intelligence to the level of algae. Daenerys has nothing left to say. So much has been said in this forum about how Showrunners burned her character that I don't want to bore you with words. (Consider how much wiser Dany is in the books than in the show and This is the reason why I really like her character in the books, unlike the show).
Unfortunately, they also bring similar disasters on other important characters such as Sansa, Tyrion, Bran and especially Varys.

The thing is, Jon, like Daenerys, is well-intentioned, but he is by no means a saint.

All the big six characters (Tyrion especially) do things that are morally dubious, because that is the world which they have been flung into.

[Le Cygne]

Jon's big question was always "who am I?" so how does finding out he's a Targ fit with his Stark identity. He's a dragon, he's a wolf, and the wildlings are his "no man's land" where he explores the different parts of himself.

Also he's got to deal with not really being human anymore on top of all of this. Lots to be explored there, but the show just blew all of that off. I think the books will end very differently because they will account for all of this.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:13 AM, SeanF said:

Aragorn was principled, but he really, really, wanted to be King of Gondor.  And, he made it very plain that he viewed himself as the true king of Gondor, throughout LOTR.

Aragorn would not have schemed and murdered to become king, but he expected his due, after achieving success as a war leader.

Turning Jon into someone who shied away from leadership was another disservice the two D’s did to his character.

Agree, I think Aragorn always wanted to be king, when the time was right, and on his own terms. He had quite the example before him to learn from, so he was wise to tread carefully.

I think Jon has demonstrated that he wants to lead, he wants to make a difference in the world, so making him a park ranger after murdering family is pretty damned arbitrary.

On 6/12/2023 at 3:06 PM, SeanF said:

Did he though?

It seems to me that he was riddled with guilt about Ygritte, not so much truly about getting her pregnant, as the knowledge that his actions would lead to her death.

It’s why the argument (from the show) that they’re doing Jon a kindness by sending him into the wilderness rings so hollow.

A man who is struggling with the guilt of killing one lover is returned to a place where he will struggle with the guilt of betraying another.

There's nothing that says perfect fit about Jon's time with the wildlings, nor Dany's time with the Dothraki. Ygritte and Drogo would probably still be alive, if not for Jon and Dany.

There was love in those relationships, they helped them find themselves. There was something about the two wild ones that struck a chord in the two noble ones.

Ygritte herself wanted to see the castles in Jon's world. Drogo wanted to take Dany to her castle, too. There was growth all around in the books, but the show tossed it all out.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Agree, I think Aragorn always wanted to be king, when the time was right, and on his own terms. He had quite the example before him to learn from, so he was wise to tread carefully.

I think Jon has demonstrated that he wants to lead, he wants to make a difference in the world, so making him a park ranger after murdering family is pretty damned arbitrary.

There's nothing that says perfect fit about Jon's time with the wildlings, nor Dany's time with the Dothraki. Ygritte and Drogo would probably still be alive, if not for Jon and Dany.

There was love in those relationships, they helped them find themselves. There was something about the two wild ones that struck a chord in the two noble ones.

Ygritte herself wanted to see the castles in Jon's world. Drogo wanted to take Dany to her castle, too. There was growth all around in the books, but the show tossed it all out.

If one views the final seasons cynically (and to my mind, that is the only way to rationalise what we were given) then Jon’s “wishing” to return to the wilderness sounds like the official party line.

In reality, Jon was kicked to the kerb, once he had done Sansa’s, Tyrion’s, Sam’s, and Bran’s dirty work for them.

[The Bard of Banefort]

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[The Bard of Banefort]

I finally watched The Serpent Queen, and it’s probably the closest I’ve seen a show come to vintage GOT in terms of political intrigue, (much more so than HOTD). It definitely plays loose with the history, and I think it went a bit overboard with the 4-D chess towards the end, but it was a pleasant reminder of what GOT was like when it first started.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:01 AM, csuszka1948 said:

The main problem is that FeastDance just lacks payoff and most of the story arcs do not reach a proper conclusion.

Well that's not necessarily true.

The only story arcs that do not reach a proper conclusion are the stories pertaining to the Meereen theater (Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan) and maybe the Riverlands theater (Jaime and Brienne). Anything else is really just a proper conclusion masquerading as a cliffhanger (Daenerys) or all the material that people wanted to happen in Dance actually belong in Winds because it thematically doesn't really align (Davos, Theon/Asha)

On 4/26/2023 at 3:13 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The only other option for Cersei besides fleeing west and teaming up with someone (we know it ain’t Stannis and it’s probably not Dany) is for her to be taken captive in the Red Keep like Alicent.

For the record, I think this will happen before she flees west. Briefly. No more than two chapters.

But you're right. Either Cersei flees west and teams up with someone else in order to fight back, she remains a prisoner within the Red Keep or she dies

On 4/26/2023 at 3:13 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

As far as I recall, Cersei doesn’t know about the wildfire under the city, right?

She does

The thing is that the likelihood of her being the one to use wildfire to lay waste to her enemies and destroy a significant portion of the city is very low. Varys wants her to make the life of his cookie-cutter king easier, not harder.

I think soon-to-be-half-mad Connington will be the one responsible. Varys won't see that one coming and will thus have no way of preventing it once it starts.

On 5/22/2023 at 12:39 PM, csuszka1948 said:

I suspect Tyrion won't be Lord of CR though, Arya won't explore the world alone, Jeyne will 'play' Arya Stark - with the 'Stark' line continuing with her children, because Sansa won't remarry -,  and Dany (after calling the Great Council in which Bran is elected King) will depart from Westeros with the Dothraki, among whom she loved living the most. 

No. Jeyne won't continue to be Arya. If Arya survives the series, it has to end with her finally embracing her identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell, kickass lady wife and mother. Much like her LOTR counterpart Eowyn.

Rickon will be the one to continue the Stark name and bloodline but Arya will have her own castle full of children. Arya wants to be a valuable, productive member of a pack...her issue is that her status as both a girl and second-born means that there is no real place for in her in any pack...especially since she is no good at the things that female members of a pack are expected to contribute to the pack. So, she tries to pick up swordplay as a way of proving herself to both her pack and herself...but that journey takes her to other places.

I say all that to say that when Arya rediscovers herself, her pack and redefines her role within the part in a way more true to herself, the end of her story means that she lives in that truth within the pack. Part of that is working as a detective or sheriff but part of it is becoming a good wife, mother, sister and aunt