GOT Musings

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:12 AM, SeanF said:

In the scenario we're given, in that video, Jon is by far the best person to unify the country, with Cersei and Daenerys both dead.  

Not least, because with the various lords once again vying for power, the king has to be an experienced soldier.

Though wouldn't GRRM argue against that viewpoint since both Robert and Ned, who were both veteran soldiers, were shown to be poor rulers?

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:55 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I can understand why people don’t like the ship, but I have a very different reading of this quote: 

Saying “I should have done this before leaving her for that dwarf” is like saying “I would jump off a bridge before going on a second date with that guy.” It’s not a confession; he’s saying that being raped and killed is better than being married to Tyrion, who he despises. It’s kind of like that line from the show, where the Hound says something like “if you die with a clean sword, I’ll rape your corpse.” Obviously he didn’t do that.

Not to mention, GRRM wrote the Blackwater episode, which had the “you won’t hurt me” exchange instead.

This is a long way of me saying that even though he was being aggressive, I don’t think the Hound had any intention of raping her.

On the other hand I could see it happening since GRRM has a liking for age gap relationships with a side order of Stockholm (read: Drogo and Daenerys).

[Le Cygne]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:25 AM, SeanF said:

It’s much better than what we got, but I mostly dislike Jon’s story arc.

Jon is actually shirking his duty, to step up and rule a shattered nation.  There’s nothing admirable about self-abnegation.  Nor do I think Jon would throw in the towel, after Cersei set off the wildfire.

If there's a trope I've come to detest it is that the greatest leaders are those who reject power.  Truly competent and public-spirited people step up to the mark.

As for King Tyrion?  Simply, no.

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

Edited May 21 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:12 PM, SeanF said:

I’d say her fatal flaw is self doubt, bordering on self-loathing, causing her to second-guess all she does.

I think she has self doubt for a good reason, her good intentions, she starts out wanting something good, like GRRM said ("George told me that Daenerys wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people") but finds the reality of ruling very difficult. So she second guesses herself.

(There's also her repeated longing for a simpler life, living in a house with a red door, that showed us that she envisioned another kind of life for herself, but the show always shirked showing the interior lives of the characters, which are so important, and could have been shown in many ways.)

GRRM said his ending will be very different from the show. I think Bran will perhaps be lord of Winterfell, because he's so tied to the north, but that's just my feeling about the story. None of us really knows how things will end for everyone, it could be any number of ways, as long as it fits what went before.

With Dany, if she does fall, I think it would be a much better story for her good intentions to be her undoing, that's tragedy. Instead they gave us farce.

Most of the audience liked Dany. As badly as they bungled the character, there's something good that shone through. It was a stupid season, insulting to the audience in many ways, but what they did to Dany was a glaring mistake, as shown by the instant audience backlash.

They stated emphatically she's not mad!, then suddenly, on a dime, made her madder than a hatter. Their game of going in different directions regardless of what had gone before ("creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen") ran into the wall of the show ending.

Edited May 22 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Though wouldn't GRRM argue against that viewpoint since both Robert and Ned, who were both veteran soldiers, were shown to be poor rulers?

But with war threatening, you need a king who can fight.

I’m sure Ned was competent as ruler of the North, even if was out of his depth, in the capital.

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

Blackwater was probably the best episode of them all.

[csuszka1948]

14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

 

 

 

Yes, Jon will rise to the occasion when the War for the Dawn comes. However, his place is with the wildlings and the freedom their life provides, not sitting on the IT.-

14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

 

 

 

Honestly, GRRM also fucked them up by not finishing even Winds despite his promises.

AFFC and ADWD are pretty much unadaptable - even GRRM had to split it into 2 books geographically, so if he split it into 2 books chronologically, the ending of the first book (aka season 5) would have been a huge letdown - and because Winds is not released, the showrunners do not even know which elements will be the most important.

That said, season 8 could have been much better if they weren't overconfident in their writing abilities and didn't stick with their idea of Jon killing Dany. 

Edited May 22 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

Anyway, this makes me think that with regards to the ending, the showrunners actually tried to follow what GRRM told them very roughly:

1) Act 1: Stark-Lannister war - first 3 books, first 4 seasons. Ends with Lannisters winning, Winterfell taken, Starks dispersed accross the world, Tyrion framed for murder and fleeing

2) Act 2: 'Targaryen invasion' - next 3 books, Season 5 and 6. Ends with Stannis burning Shireen, Jon elected King of the North, Tommen and Myrcella (+Aegon in the books) dead, Mace, Kevan and Margaery killed, Cersei blowing up wildfire (in the books probably entire KL), Dany and Tyrion departing Essos, ferried by Ironborn ships. The showrunners tried to simplify this immensely because even GRRM hasn't managed to cut this 'Gordian knot' for a decade and they couldn't introduce tons of new characters to a show which already has a large cast. 

3) Act 3: invasion of the Others - Dream of Spring, Seasons 7 and 8. The final antagonists are Cersei (in the books in CR), Euron and the Others. I suspect that GRRM only has loose plans for this book, so the showrunners had to improvise for the most part and did it terribly.

 

That said, I personally think his plans for the endings of most characters are similar. I suspect Tyrion won't be Lord of CR though, Arya won't explore the world alone, Jeyne will 'play' Arya Stark - with the 'Stark' line continuing with her children, because Sansa won't remarry -,  and Dany (after calling the Great Council in which Bran is elected King) will depart from Westeros with the Dothraki, among whom she loved living the most. 

 

Edited May 22 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:28 AM, Le Cygne said:

Yes, agreed. That's not what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn. He rose to the occasion when the time was right. Everything he learned to that point served him well.

They were such bad writers, if only they had copied something good (well, like the source material). But they figured they could do better, which was their undoing.

Often you could see they were going in one direction, only to go into another, without regard for what came before. When that's multiplied with various characters and plots, it's nonsense.

I am kind of excited about Dunk and Egg, because GRRM is involved. Blackwater was a standout episode, and it could have been better had they not tied his hands with their nonsense.

After that, they tied his hands completely, the butterflies were dragons, and the magic of the original material was long gone. I love that he tried to make something beautiful out of it, even so.

Aragorn was principled, but he really, really, wanted to be King of Gondor.  And, he made it very plain that he viewed himself as the true king of Gondor, throughout LOTR.

Aragorn would not have schemed and murdered to become king, but he expected his due, after achieving success as a war leader.

Turning Jon into someone who shied away from leadership was another disservice the two D’s did to his character.

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:46 AM, SeanF said:

But with war threatening, you need a king who can fight.

I’m sure Ned was competent as ruler of the North, even if was out of his depth, in the capital.

Unfortunately we don't see much of Ned as a ruler in the North so however good a job he did seems on the surface to be informed ability.