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The Bard of Banefort
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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yes, but I don’t know if this was something they kept to themselves or not. And according to FCKAD, they settled on Arya killing NK at some point during S7. Originally they considered having Brienne or the Hound do it lol.

Brienne I could see given she had a Valyrian Steel weapon and there would be a bit of poetry in part of Ice being used to kill the Night King.

 

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Now for some overall thoughts on Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon:

  • James Hibberd is a very good writer, and he has a decade worth of interviews to pull from to fill out this book. That said, he was commissioned by HBO to write it, and after spending so much time with the showrunners, he all but certainly would have become friends with many of them and would want to portray them in a positive light. If you followed the show while it was airing, not only will you recognize a lot of the quotes, but you'll find there's a gloss to the cast and crew now that wasn't there before. D&D gave plenty of interviews throughout the years where they came across as rude, or dismissive, or clueless, but FCKAD has edited around most of that, along with some of the more controversial cast quotes. Most of the people involved with the show did not respond well to the backlash over Sansa's wedding night, for instance, but you would never know that from reading this book, where they all gave new, post-MeToo approved quotes. With the exception of a short chapter about pranks that D&D liked to play, there is no indication that anyone was ever unprofessional or caused any drama, even though we know that isn't completely true (i.e. Lena and Jerome refused to be on set at the same time). That said, Hibberd does tend to rise to the audience's defense whenever the showrunners get a little too snippy (ex. saying viewers shouldn't have to change their TV settings to see what's on screen).
  • Because FCKAD is about the making of GOT, there is more focus on the people working behind the scenes than on the actors, and many pivotal moments had to be skipped over for length. Hibberd places much more focus on the later seasons than the earlier ones, with a special emphasis on the battles. Because of this, Kit Harington is undoubtedly the actor who gets the most "screen time," so to speak, although Emilia is a close second. A few other actors, such as Gwendoline Christie, Liam Cunningham, and Nathalie Emmanuel are either eloquent or funny enough that they're quoted quite frequently. By comparison, Charles Dance only has one quote in the entire book, and Stephen Dillane has none. Considering how important the Lannisters are (and how much D&D beefed up Tyrion's and Cersei's roles specifically), it is surprising just how little discussion they're given. The Starks also feel underrepresented, considering this is essentially their story.
  • The battle sequences and casting process are undoubtedly fascinating, but there's very little character analysis or explanation from the writers or actors. We don't learn why the showrunners decided to make Cersei queen, or have Sansa and Jon reunite before the rest of their siblings, or what everyone was thinking during the Battle of the Blackwater. The most insight we get into what the characters are thinking is during S8. Only a few cast members (Gwen, Nikolaj, etc.) share their thoughts on why their characters behaved the way they did.
  • It's almost a cliché to complain about women's representation at this point, but it really is striking how few women worked on making this show. Aside from a few higher-ups at HBO, almost everyone making decisions behind the scenes was a guy. And D&D getting a gigantic TV deal with no experience is a lot less quaint in 2023 than it was in 2011.
  • This brings me to a larger point: will GOT ever escape it's reputation for misogyny? There's no telling the future, but my gut tells me no. The fact that a few of the actresses, such as Carice and Emilia, even tentatively criticize the show's reliance on female nudity does not bode well for its legacy. Hibberd tries very hard to make the showrunners sound like artists instead of bros, but in a way it almost feels like the book is lying to us. Sometimes the writing is sympathetic to its subjects, but other times it's just spin.
  • We get a bit of a peek into George's head too. The guy loves seeing his books come to life (and winning Emmys) and is positively ebullient for the first several chapters. You can't help but feel for him when he expresses his disappointment with being unable to finish the books in time. George doesn't comment on the later seasons, but there are two times when he criticizes the show outright--first for turning Dany's wedding night into a rape, and then for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. 
  • I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that actors are emotional people, but it's heart-wrenching to read about how much they (and the crew) put into making the show. Kit's the most striking in this regard--it's no wonder that he wants to create a spin-off to complete Jon's story after how emotionally invested he was in GOT for the better part of the decade.
  • D&D actually have a pretty sweet friendship--it's fun hearing how they'd call each other whenever they reached an exciting point in the books and couldn't wait to talk about it. For the first half of the book, they come across as quite humble and dedicated. Sometime around season 5, there's a slight shift were they start acting more arrogant and defensive.
  • I would have liked for FCKAD to spend more time on the phenomena around the show, both during it's heyday and after it crashed and burned.
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On 4/30/2023 at 9:08 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Now for some overall thoughts on Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon:

  • James Hibberd is a very good writer, and he has a decade worth of interviews to pull from to fill out this book. That said, he was commissioned by HBO to write it, and after spending so much time with the showrunners, he all but certainly would have become friends with many of them and would want to portray them in a positive light. If you followed the show while it was airing, not only will you recognize a lot of the quotes, but you'll find there's a gloss to the cast and crew now that wasn't there before. D&D gave plenty of interviews throughout the years where they came across as rude, or dismissive, or clueless, but FCKAD has edited around most of that, along with some of the more controversial cast quotes. Most of the people involved with the show did not respond well to the backlash over Sansa's wedding night, for instance, but you would never know that from reading this book, where they all gave new, post-MeToo approved quotes. With the exception of a short chapter about pranks that D&D liked to play, there is no indication that anyone was ever unprofessional or caused any drama, even though we know that isn't completely true (i.e. Lena and Jerome refused to be on set at the same time). That said, Hibberd does tend to rise to the audience's defense whenever the showrunners get a little too snippy (ex. saying viewers shouldn't have to change their TV settings to see what's on screen).
  • Because FCKAD is about the making of GOT, there is more focus on the people working behind the scenes than on the actors, and many pivotal moments had to be skipped over for length. Hibberd places much more focus on the later seasons than the earlier ones, with a special emphasis on the battles. Because of this, Kit Harington is undoubtedly the actor who gets the most "screen time," so to speak, although Emilia is a close second. A few other actors, such as Gwendoline Christie, Liam Cunningham, and Nathalie Emmanuel are either eloquent or funny enough that they're quoted quite frequently. By comparison, Charles Dance only has one quote in the entire book, and Stephen Dillane has none. Considering how important the Lannisters are (and how much D&D beefed up Tyrion's and Cersei's roles specifically), it is surprising just how little discussion they're given. The Starks also feel underrepresented, considering this is essentially their story.
  • The battle sequences and casting process are undoubtedly fascinating, but there's very little character analysis or explanation from the writers or actors. We don't learn why the showrunners decided to make Cersei queen, or have Sansa and Jon reunite before the rest of their siblings, or what everyone was thinking during the Battle of the Blackwater. The most insight we get into what the characters are thinking is during S8. Only a few cast members (Gwen, Nikolaj, etc.) share their thoughts on why their characters behaved the way they did.
  • It's almost a cliché to complain about women's representation at this point, but it really is striking how few women worked on making this show. Aside from a few higher-ups at HBO, almost everyone making decisions behind the scenes was a guy. And D&D getting a gigantic TV deal with no experience is a lot less quaint in 2023 than it was in 2011.
  • This brings me to a larger point: will GOT ever escape it's reputation for misogyny? There's no telling the future, but my gut tells me no. The fact that a few of the actresses, such as Carice and Emilia, even tentatively criticize the show's reliance on female nudity does not bode well for its legacy. Hibberd tries very hard to make the showrunners sound like artists instead of bros, but in a way it almost feels like the book is lying to us. Sometimes the writing is sympathetic to its subjects, but other times it's just spin.
  • We get a bit of a peek into George's head too. The guy loves seeing his books come to life (and winning Emmys) and is positively ebullient for the first several chapters. You can't help but feel for him when he expresses his disappointment with being unable to finish the books in time. George doesn't comment on the later seasons, but there are two times when he criticizes the show outright--first for turning Dany's wedding night into a rape, and then for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay. 
  • I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that actors are emotional people, but it's heart-wrenching to read about how much they (and the crew) put into making the show. Kit's the most striking in this regard--it's no wonder that he wants to create a spin-off to complete Jon's story after how emotionally invested he was in GOT for the better part of the decade.
  • D&D actually have a pretty sweet friendship--it's fun hearing how they'd call each other whenever they reached an exciting point in the books and couldn't wait to talk about it. For the first half of the book, they come across as quite humble and dedicated. Sometime around season 5, there's a slight shift were they start acting more arrogant and defensive.
  • I would have liked for FCKAD to spend more time on the phenomena around the show, both during it's heyday and after it crashed and burned.

Not surprised by Dillane since D&D disliked Stannis.

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Question for the class: would it have made for a better story if Arya died in S8? I can think of two ways she could have gone that would have been impactful: either she died while killing the Night King, letting him stab her so she could get close enough to vanquish him, or was killed during the firebombing of KL. The first would have been a heroic sacrifice capping off eight seasons of training (and choosing to save others rather than kill for revenge). The second would have showed that even the girl who destroyed the Walkers can’t escape death forever (and maybe it would have been a significant enough death that the show wouldn’t have needed to go quite as crazy burning civilians to get the point across). Either way, I think it would have strengthened Jon’s resolve against Dany: in the version we got, he kills her to protect her sisters, but if he had already lost one sister recently, he would be even more determined to save the other. And it would have been better than Arya deserting her family again in the end.

What do you guys think?

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: would it have made for a better story if Arya died in S8? I can think of two ways she could have gone that would have been impactful: either she died while killing the Night King, letting him stab her so she could get close enough to vanquish him, or was killed during the firebombing of KL. The first would have been a heroic sacrifice capping off eight seasons of training (and choosing to save others rather than kill for revenge). The second would have showed that even the girl who destroyed the Walkers can’t escape death forever (and maybe it would have been a significant enough death that the show wouldn’t have needed to go quite as crazy burning civilians to get the point across). Either way, I think it would have strengthened Jon’s resolve against Dany: in the version we got, he kills her to protect her sisters, but if he had already lost one sister recently, he would be even more determined to save the other. And it would have been better than Arya deserting her family again in the end.

What do you guys think?

I think saving the show would require going back to at least S5, which was my personal breaking point.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: would it have made for a better story if Arya died in S8? I can think of two ways she could have gone that would have been impactful: either she died while killing the Night King, letting him stab her so she could get close enough to vanquish him, or was killed during the firebombing of KL. The first would have been a heroic sacrifice capping off eight seasons of training (and choosing to save others rather than kill for revenge). The second would have showed that even the girl who destroyed the Walkers can’t escape death forever (and maybe it would have been a significant enough death that the show wouldn’t have needed to go quite as crazy burning civilians to get the point across). Either way, I think it would have strengthened Jon’s resolve against Dany: in the version we got, he kills her to protect her sisters, but if he had already lost one sister recently, he would be even more determined to save the other. And it would have been better than Arya deserting her family again in the end.

What do you guys think?

I don't think that either would have saved the show, but I can see how they would both have been an improvement.  

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: would it have made for a better story if Arya died in S8? I can think of two ways she could have gone that would have been impactful: either she died while killing the Night King, letting him stab her so she could get close enough to vanquish him, or was killed during the firebombing of KL. The first would have been a heroic sacrifice capping off eight seasons of training (and choosing to save others rather than kill for revenge). The second would have showed that even the girl who destroyed the Walkers can’t escape death forever (and maybe it would have been a significant enough death that the show wouldn’t have needed to go quite as crazy burning civilians to get the point across). Either way, I think it would have strengthened Jon’s resolve against Dany: in the version we got, he kills her to protect her sisters, but if he had already lost one sister recently, he would be even more determined to save the other. And it would have been better than Arya deserting her family again in the end.

What do you guys think?

I've contemplated this question a few times over the years. For the first example I thought of it more as an example of the Night King's stupidity, where he had a good 10 seconds to kill Arya before being stabbed. For the second it could have worked going the other way in that Arya's pursuit of vengeance would lead to her death.

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I finally watched the deleted scenes from S8: 

Very little of value was cut. It’s mostly just scenes of people calling Davos old, Alys Karstark dying off-screen, a scene showing that the northerners don’t really see Dany as their queen (and her not liking it), a few cut lines from Tormund and Tyrion, and a scene of Dany teasing Missandei with some less-than-great acting from Emilia. The big scene they cut was Tyrion and Sansa killing some wights, but after watching the scene, I’m wondering if they cut it because of some uncommonly bad acting from Gilly. Her reaction to zombies trying to kill her and her son is a blank stare (granted, you would think the director would have told her to look more frightened). It’s also shot in a way that makes it look like Tyrion killed all the wights on his own, which I’m pretty sure he didn’t.

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On 5/4/2023 at 10:43 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: would it have made for a better story if Arya died in S8? I can think of two ways she could have gone that would have been impactful: either she died while killing the Night King, letting him stab her so she could get close enough to vanquish him, or was killed during the firebombing of KL. The first would have been a heroic sacrifice capping off eight seasons of training (and choosing to save others rather than kill for revenge). The second would have showed that even the girl who destroyed the Walkers can’t escape death forever (and maybe it would have been a significant enough death that the show wouldn’t have needed to go quite as crazy burning civilians to get the point across). Either way, I think it would have strengthened Jon’s resolve against Dany: in the version we got, he kills her to protect her sisters, but if he had already lost one sister recently, he would be even more determined to save the other. And it would have been better than Arya deserting her family again in the end.

A lot of people hate on the last 2 or 3 episodes of Season 8 (and I agree), but I think "The Long Night" was the worst episode of the entire series.  The over-hyped big threat should not have been resolved from one perfectly placed stab wound from any character... and that character certainly shouldn't have been Arya.  But if they were to keep the story of Arya killing the Night King and ending the Long Night, I definitely think she should have died in the process of killing him.

I would not have wanted Arya to die in Kings Landing, because Arya shouldn't have been there at all.  She already killed the Night King (which should not have been in her story arc), so they don't need to throw other extraneous side-plots on Arya that also weren't her story arc.  She needed to have the conversation with the Hound (or some other trigger) to turn back against vengeance... but not then and not there.

Jon's sisters should not have been a factor for Jon killing Dany.  Jon shouldn't have been motivated by avenging his sisters, or protecting his sisters: it should have been about saving the world from a mass-murdering tyrant.  Jon's character was thoroughly ruined when he defended Dany and said that she made "an impossible choice", so then Tyrion had to bring his sisters into it (if I remember correctly).

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28 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

A lot of people hate on the last 2 or 3 episodes of Season 8 (and I agree), but I think "The Long Night" was the worst episode of the entire series.  The over-hyped big threat should not have been resolved from one perfectly placed stab wound from any character... and that character certainly shouldn't have been Arya.  But if they were to keep the story of Arya killing the Night King and ending the Long Night, I definitely think she should have died in the process of killing him.

I would not have wanted Arya to die in Kings Landing, because Arya shouldn't have been there at all.  She already killed the Night King (which should not have been in her story arc), so they don't need to throw other extraneous side-plots on Arya that also weren't her story arc.  She needed to have the conversation with the Hound (or some other trigger) to turn back against vengeance... but not then and not there.

Jon's sisters should not have been a factor for Jon killing Dany.  Jon shouldn't have been motivated by avenging his sisters, or protecting his sisters: it should have been about saving the world from a mass-murdering tyrant.  Jon's character was thoroughly ruined when he defended Dany and said that she made "an impossible choice", so then Tyrion had to bring his sisters into it (if I remember correctly).

My understanding is that having Dany swerve aside to burn civilians was added after the scripts had been written.

So, while, as originally envisaged, civilians were killed when the Red Keep was destroyed, and at the hands of enraged soldiers, it was far more plainly an act of war than what was eventually shown.

In that context, Jon’s reaction to Tyrion (and Dany’s comments to Jon about Cersei leaving her no choice), and then Tyrion’s using “what about your sisters”, as his last roll of the dice, make a lot more sense.  

They did not alter the script to take account of an important change.  I guess they realised that there would be no real justification for Dany being killed, unless they made her more brutal, but they weren’t able to fix the script at such a late stage.

I agree Episode 3 was awful, from poor lighting, to stupid military tactics, to Bran staring into space, to Arya springing out of a tree.  If anything, Cersei should have been kerb-stomped in Season 7, leaving the whole of Season 8 to deal with the the Others. Give the Night King a victory in the North with the final fight at the Trident, or the capital.

Edited by SeanF
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On 4/30/2023 at 9:08 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Now for some overall thoughts on Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon:

  • We get a bit of a peek into George's head too. The guy loves seeing his books come to life (and winning Emmys) and is positively ebullient for the first several chapters. You can't help but feel for him when he expresses his disappointment with being unable to finish the books in time. George doesn't comment on the later seasons, but there are two times when he criticizes the show outright--first for turning Dany's wedding night into a rape, and then for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay.

Good for him (the bold).

On 4/30/2023 at 9:08 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:
  • This brings me to a larger point: will GOT ever escape it's reputation for misogyny? There's no telling the future, but my gut tells me no. The fact that a few of the actresses, such as Carice and Emilia, even tentatively criticize the show's reliance on female nudity does not bode well for its legacy. Hibberd tries very hard to make the showrunners sound like artists instead of bros, but in a way it almost feels like the book is lying to us. Sometimes the writing is sympathetic to its subjects, but other times it's just spin.

I agree, nope. It seems like such a simple thing, to just show women are people, but some showrunners/directors can't be bothered to imagine what it's like to be one (even in this case, when the source material DID bother to imagine that).

Just saw The Doors movie (it's bad, don't bother) and there were naked women everywhere but only one butt shot of Jim Morrison. The story was about how women wanted him, and yet... the director never bothered to show what they wanted to see.

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I think that originally the wildfire was supposed to do most of the damage. That said, Dany still went on blowing up the city for the rest of the episode, so it’s not like she thought to stop when she saw what was happening, even in the original script.

My theory is that Jon will be the “treason for love” in the books, and that this was D&D’s way of incorporating that. A lot of the stuff George told them was just kind of slapped on without any cohesion (i.e. King Bran).

I think a major mistake the show made was trying to make every battle bigger and greater than the last. It’s clear that many people went into S8 expecting it to be an entire season of epic battles on scale with Battle of the Bastards, which just isn’t feasible. It would have taken an additional year to film and judging by all I’ve read about The Long Night now, I don’t think the cast would have agreed to an intensive schedule that would have lasted that long. What the show should have done, in my opinion, was forgo the giant battle and do a string of episodes with smaller fights and a psychological thriller-esque escape from the Walkers (the closest we got to this was Arya in the library). It could have been interspersed with regrouping, assisting the commoners, deserting Winterfell, etc. But that wasn’t the type of approach GOT was interested in.

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12 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Good for him.

I agree, nope. It seems like such a simple thing, to just show women are people, but some showrunners/directors can't be bothered to imagine what it's like to be one (even in this case, when the source material DID bother to imagine that).

Just saw The Doors movie (it's bad, don't bother) and there were naked women everywhere but only one butt shot of Jim Morrison. The story was about how women wanted him, and yet... the director never bothered to show what they wanted to see.

Unfortunately, GOT’s misogyny forced them to overcorrect in HOTD where, at least in the first season, the women are all frightened lambs constantly being used and abused by the men. And because of GOT’s reputation, the way women are portrayed in any of its properties are never going to sit well with many fans, no matter what direction they go in. Even I’m guilty of this. One problem with being THE BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD for a decade (even though it wasn’t, it was just the show that the most amount of clickbait journalists decided was worth their time) is that it leaves a mark, for better and for worse.

I disagree with a lot of Lindsay Ellis’ takes, but her comment that GOT was “hot fantasy that fucks” was definitely true. I think the reason why there were/are so many overly defensive bros in the show fandom who were adamant that this was a very serious T&D show was because that meant they didn’t have to be embarrassed for liking a fantasy show. Then when the ending fell flat on its face, a lot of those people indeed felt embarrassed for caring so much.

The funny thing is, despite the female-centered marketing, I’ve read that HOTD is even more male-skewed than GOT was (it makes sense if you look at HBO’s merch website, which has a lot more women’s attire for GOT than HOTD). I’ve also heard that very few “adult women” (as in 30s or older) watch HOTD, and I can totally see that. The only people I remember seeing criticize Aemma’s torturous childbirth scene were women, and most of them have reached the point in their lives where they don’t find a manchild like Daemon all that attractive either.

Tying those two together, it’s actually a little ironic that men consume more fantasy and sci-fi than women, since women aren’t generally embarrassed to be fans of stuff like that the way some men are.

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There were so many problems with what they did, but essentially they were just bad at telling stories. And since there was plenty of source material (even though the story didn't have an end), they didn't listen to stories well, either.

Like, the basic journeys.

Arya, the first thing that comes to mind is she is a pack animal. That's emphasized many times in the books. Arya is a she-wolf who loses her pack, then finds a new one, then loses them, too! She even says this! She gets mad! And she gets revenge. So... what does the audience want to see? You want to see her belong again, and gain the wisdom to know that revenge is not satisfying, but justice is good. Instead they blew off her main connection, which was with Jon Snow (again, the book is filled with her thinking about him), and she never learns a damn thing, then blows him off (in the end, Jon asks her to please come see him, and she's like, gotta run!)

Sansa, the first thing that comes to mind is she loves romantic stories, but never gets to have one of her own. This is a reasonable thing to want, even in Westeros. She has a Beauty and the Beast story, Sansa and the Hound, that shows her coming of age, as she matures into a woman, and learns lessons, while exploring her sexuality in a positive way. The showrunners stumbled over it in the beginning, but this tale as old as time was way over their heads, and there's this long slog where she's just the showrunners' punching bag. In the end, like Arya, she never learns a damn thing, she's outright nasty much of the time, and she's the ice queen, all alone with her tiara.

We could go on and on.

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6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Unfortunately, GOT’s misogyny forced them to overcorrect in HOTD where, at least in the first season, the women are all frightened lambs constantly being used and abused by the men. And because of GOT’s reputation, the way women are portrayed in any of its properties are never going to sit well with many fans, no matter what direction they go in. Even I’m guilty of this. One problem with being THE BIGGEST SHOW IN THE WORLD for a decade (even though it wasn’t, it was just the show that the most amount of clickbait journalists decided was worth their time) is that it leaves a mark, for better and for worse.

I disagree with a lot of Lindsay Ellis’ takes, but her comment that GOT was “hot fantasy that fucks” was definitely true. I think the reason why there were/are so many overly defensive bros in the show fandom who were adamant that this was a very serious T&D show was because that meant they didn’t have to be embarrassed for liking a fantasy show. Then when the ending fell flat on its face, a lot of those people indeed felt embarrassed for caring so much.

The funny thing is, despite the female-centered marketing, I’ve read that HOTD is even more male-skewed than GOT was (it makes sense if you look at HBO’s merch website, which has a lot more women’s attire for GOT than HOTD). I’ve also heard that very few “adult women” (as in 30s or older) watch HOTD, and I can totally see that. The only people I remember seeing criticize Aemma’s torturous childbirth scene were women, and most of them have reached the point in their lives where they don’t find a manchild like Daemon all that attractive either.

Tying those two together, it’s actually a little ironic that men consume more fantasy and sci-fi than women, since women aren’t generally embarrassed to be fans of stuff like that the way some men are.

I didn't see HOTD or read about it, but that doesn't sound very good. I didn't see much of redeeming value in Fire and Blood, in terms of the women's stories, so I decided not to watch.

I would be interested in Dunk and Egg, if it's developed properly! I think it needs a light touch, there's a lot of humor in it, as well as a lot of fun sexuality. This isn't rocket science, but they always get it wrong.

Good point about casting, Dunk is supposed to be quite good looking so make sure you get that right. They have to give the women something to look at! They seem to forget this a lot.

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58 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that originally the wildfire was supposed to do most of the damage. That said, Dany still went on blowing up the city for the rest of the episode, so it’s not like she thought to stop when she saw what was happening, even in the original script.

My theory is that Jon will be the “treason for love” in the books, and that this was D&D’s way of incorporating that. A lot of the stuff George told them was just kind of slapped on without any cohesion (i.e. King Bran).

Putting a woman down like a mad dog, and pretending that is love, is stupid and insulting. That they didn't see this is just more proof they were really bad at this. A child could have told them.

I think the books have to be a lot different. He came right out and said they would be.

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1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Putting a woman down like a mad dog, and pretending that is love, is stupid and insulting. That they didn't see this is just more proof they were really bad at this. A child could have told them.

I think the books have to be a lot different. He came right out and said they would be.

 

No, no, I meant that Jon killed Dany for love of his sisters, who he thought Dany would kill. I’m guessing that Arya will somehow get on Dany’s bad side in the books, which will be what leads us here.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

No, no, I meant that Jon killed Dany for love of his sisters, who he thought Dany would kill. I’m guessing that Arya will somehow get on Dany’s bad side in the books, which will be what leads us here.

What I'm saying is I don't think what went down on the show even remotely resembles the book plot, because it's just too stupid.

Tyrion is manipulating him, and Jon should know this. It makes no sense that Dany would kill Jon's family. Dany is Jon's family, too.

These characters have been wanting this family connection all series long, then when they get together they kill or leave them. It's not a satisfying story.

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Sansa, the first thing that comes to mind is she loves romantic stories, but never gets to have one of her own. This is a reasonable thing to want, even in Westeros. She has a Beauty and the Beast story, Sansa and the Hound, that shows her coming of age, as she matures into a woman, and learns lessons, while exploring her sexuality in a positive way. The showrunners stumbled over it in the beginning, but this tale as old as time was way over their heads, and there's this long slog where she's just the showrunners' punching bag. In the end, like Arya, she never learns a damn thing, she's outright nasty much of the time, and she's the ice queen, all alone with her tiara.

I wouldn't call an attempted rape a romantic story.

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35 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wouldn't call an attempted rape a romantic story.

I can understand why people don’t like the ship, but I have a very different reading of this quote: 

Quote

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael

Saying “I should have done this before leaving her for that dwarf” is like saying “I would jump off a bridge before going on a second date with that guy.” It’s not a confession; he’s saying that being raped and killed is better than being married to Tyrion, who he despises. It’s kind of like that line from the show, where the Hound says something like “if you die with a clean sword, I’ll rape your corpse.” Obviously he didn’t do that.

Not to mention, GRRM wrote the Blackwater episode, which had the “you won’t hurt me” exchange instead.

This is a long way of me saying that even though he was being aggressive, I don’t think the Hound had any intention of raping her.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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