Visenya’s Motivation

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Could her motivation for pushing Maegor towards the throne, mocking Aenys at every turn, and her falling out with Aegon been motivated by the fact that Aegon married Rhaenys?

 

It’s said he married Visenya for duty and Rhaenys for love. But we aren’t given details of their weddings. It could be Aegon married Visenya first as tradition dictated, but then Aegon chose to or was seduced by Rhaenys into taking her as a second wife. 
 

Then you have Aegon pushing for Aenys as his heir, in a more patriarchal society. Passing over her, and her son that came after. Even though she was possibly married to him first.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Possibly. Confirmation that he married Visenya first would be nice.  I think some of the red moon/ white moon/ dark sun symbolism that we see does suggest a rivalry between the 2 moons (played here by R and V) even though we can only extrapolate one actually existing between them. It seems obvious that Visenya did not love Aenys as her own.

Westeros' first Targaryan succession crisis. One of the things we don't know about is Visenya's expectation upon the death of her brother/ hubby. We know Valyria was a freehold, but that's it. Considering plural marriages existed there, they must have had rules for inheritance and such that took them into account. It's possible that Visenya felt rightfully passed over if Aegon made her subject to one of the quaint little local laws of the people they had conquered instead of passing on to her what would be rightfully hers in a civilized society. Again though, we don't know enough about what she had reason to expect. I suspect  you're onto something, but don't think we know enough to do more than speculate.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

21 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Possibly. Confirmation that he married Visenya first would be nice.  I think some of the red moon/ white moon/ dark sun symbolism that we see does suggest a rivalry between the 2 moons (played here by R and V) even though we can only extrapolate one actually existing between them. It seems obvious that Visenya did not love Aenys as her own.

Westeros' first Targaryan succession crisis. One of the things we don't know about is Visenya's expectation upon the death of her brother/ hubby. We know Valyria was a freehold, but that's it. Considering plural marriages existed there, they must have had rules for inheritance and such that took them into account. It's possible that Visenya felt rightfully passed over if Aegon made her subject to one of the quaint little local laws of the people they had conquered instead of passing on to her what would be rightfully hers in a civilized society. Again though, we don't know enough about what she had reason to expect. I suspect  you're onto something, but don't think we know enough to do more than speculate.

It’s an interesting conundrum. If the King is in a polygamist marriage, where he married one wife before the other. But had a son with his second wife before the first. Who comes first?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

7 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Possibly. Confirmation that he married Visenya first would be nice.  I think some of the red moon/ white moon/ dark sun symbolism that we see does suggest a rivalry between the 2 moons (played here by R and V) even though we can only extrapolate one actually existing between them. It seems obvious that Visenya did not love Aenys as her own.

Westeros' first Targaryan succession crisis. One of the things we don't know about is Visenya's expectation upon the death of her brother/ hubby. We know Valyria was a freehold, but that's it. Considering plural marriages existed there, they must have had rules for inheritance and such that took them into account. It's possible that Visenya felt rightfully passed over if Aegon made her subject to one of the quaint little local laws of the people they had conquered instead of passing on to her what would be rightfully hers in a civilized society. Again though, we don't know enough about what she had reason to expect. I suspect  you're onto something, but don't think we know enough to do more than speculate.

Is there a post you can point me to about the moon symbolism?

[BlackLightning]

11 hours ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

It’s an interesting conundrum. If the King is in a polygamist marriage, where he married one wife before the other. But had a son with his second wife before the first. Who comes first?

Good point

In any case, I think that Visenya's main, overruling motivation was that the Targaryen dynasty was in terrible danger. Aegon was barely legal and did not have what it takes to get rid of the Faith Militant and prevent the rest of the realm from falling apart.

Aenys had gotten close to letting everything his father built get destroyed and Visenya and Maegor both did a pretty good job in supporting him. Aenys, however, overruled them every chance he could yet was far too weak and ineffectual to do anything outside of that. Moreover, as previously stated, Aegon and Rhaena could not be trusted to take command and lead effectively. Maegor had proven himself and had all the trappings of power.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

9 hours ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

Is there a post you can point me to about the moon symbolism?

I would check out Lucifermeanslightbringer.com he's done a bunch on it. His older stuff is his best, but even when he's tinfoiling he's a good read.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Visenya must have seen the weakness in Aenys.  She did what she did to preserve the Targaryen rule and secured their hold on the Seven Kingdoms.  Maegor was the perfect person to put down the troublesome faith.  He should have done more to permanently erase the faith though.  I like Visenya.  Talk about a tough woman. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I would check out Lucifermeanslightbringer.com he's done a bunch on it. His older stuff is his best, but even when he's tinfoiling he's a good read.

I should’ve figured. He is really into the astronomy symbolism of GoT. A lot of his theories revolves around it

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Maegor was the perfect person to put down the troublesome faith.  He should have done more to permanently erase the faith though.

Are you advocating genocide?

[Lord Varys]

The OP feels like reducing a complex to a clichéd evil stepmother monster whose definiting characteristics were advancing her ill-begotten monstrous son and jealousy within a polygamous sibling incest union.

That all feels like nonsense to me.

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Good point

In any case, I think that Visenya's main, overruling motivation was that the Targaryen dynasty was in terrible danger. Aegon was barely legal and did not have what it takes to get rid of the Faith Militant and prevent the rest of the realm from falling apart.

Aenys had gotten close to letting everything his father built get destroyed and Visenya and Maegor both did a pretty good job in supporting him. Aenys, however, overruled them every chance he could yet was far too weak and ineffectual to do anything outside of that. Moreover, as previously stated, Aegon and Rhaena could not be trusted to take command and lead effectively. Maegor had proven himself and had all the trappings of power.

Allegedly, Visenya started to undermine Aenys from the start, thus contributing to the fact that he and his reign were perceived as weak.

I'm sure she was genuinely concerned that the Realm she and her siblings had built would not long survive Aegon's passing ... but the way to stabilize it was not to undermine Aegon's chosen heir. She was clearly blind to Maegor's faults which were much worse than Aenys' - especially since it was Maegor's second wedding which Visenya presided over which effectively caused the trouble with the Faith. Perhaps the High Septon would have accepted the Aegon-Rhaena match if Maegor had remained a faithful husband to Ceryse Hightower? We don't know.

And, of course, if Visenya actually poisoned and killed Aenys, then she ensured that Maegor could usurp the throne at a point before Aegon and Rhaena were ready to take over for their father. Aegon was a promising and capable young man - he would have made a fine king in 44-45 AC, say.

Maegor also didn't really resolve anything. He constantly fought and he weakened the Faith Militant and other anti-Targaryen rebels ... but much of that fighting wouldn't have had to happen if he had not insisted to have more than one wife. It is no surprise that the black brides thing in 47 AC effectively sets up his downfall.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The OP feels like reducing a complex to a clichéd evil stepmother monster whose definiting characteristics were advancing her ill-begotten monstrous son and jealousy within a polygamous sibling incest union.

That all feels like nonsense to me.

Allegedly, Visenya started to undermine Aenys from the start, thus contributing to the fact that he and his reign were perceived as weak.

I'm sure she was genuinely concerned that the Realm she and her siblings had built would not long survive Aegon's passing ... but the way to stabilize it was not to undermine Aegon's chosen heir. She was clearly blind to Maegor's faults which were much worse than Aenys' - especially since it was Maegor's second wedding which Visenya presided over which effectively caused the trouble with the Faith. Perhaps the High Septon would have accepted the Aegon-Rhaena match if Maegor had remained a faithful husband to Ceryse Hightower? We don't know.

And, of course, if Visenya actually poisoned and killed Aenys, then she ensured that Maegor could usurp the throne at a point before Aegon and Rhaena were ready to take over for their father. Aegon was a promising and capable young man - he would have made a fine king in 44-45 AC, say.

Maegor also didn't really resolve anything. He constantly fought and he weakened the Faith Militant and other anti-Targaryen rebels ... but much of that fighting wouldn't have had to happen if he had not insisted to have more than one wife. It is no surprise that the black brides thing in 47 AC effectively sets up his downfall.

I don’t feel it undermines her character at all. It humanizes her. She was right about Aenys being a weak king. And we don’t know what kind of King Aegon the Uncrowned could’ve been. She, through Maegor, saved the Targaryen dynasty. But to say she didn’t care that Aegon married another woman, their own sister, when traditionally he was supposed to be her husband, seems crazy to me. Not saying she loved Aegon or anything, but I’d be insulted if I were her. Then to conquer a whole continent, only to adopt most of their customs, like Westeros’ patriarchal norms. Valyria was evil, no question, but they were more progressive when it came to women’s power. In her eyes, Aegon passed over her twice. Over her to be Queen as she was eldest, and then her son because I believe they were married first.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

I don’t feel it undermines her character at all. It humanizes her. She was right about Aenys being a weak king. And we don’t know what kind of King Aegon the Uncrowned could’ve been. She, through Maegor, saved the Targaryen dynasty.

Nah, she nearly destroyed it. Maegor killed two of Aenys' sons, and would have killed the third if he had gotten the chance.

We know enough about Aegon and Rhaena to know that they would have been much better rulers than Maegor. The Targaryen dynasty's problems with the Faith could and were resolved. There was no need for the kind of all-out war Maegor fought.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Nah, she nearly destroyed it. Maegor killed two of Aenys' sons, and would have killed the third if he had gotten the chance.

We know enough about Aegon and Rhaena to know that they would have been much better rulers than Maegor. The Targaryen dynasty's problems with the Faith could and were resolved. There was no need for the kind of all-out war Maegor fought.

They were only resolved after Maegor nearly annihilated the Faith

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

They were only resolved after Maegor nearly annihilated the Faith

But that doesn't mean they couldn't have compromised earlier. The Faith didn't want them to practice incest and polygamy - so why not just stop doing that? Also, of course, Maegor didn't face that much opposition. It wasn't that hard to push back on them if no great house actually supported the Faith's rebellion.

And, again, Maegor was both the cause of the rebellion ... and the reason why it continued and took up steam during his reign. As I said, Aenys may have not faced the problems he had had he not been cursed with Maegor and his ridiculous second marriage.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/15/2023 at 12:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps the High Septon would have accepted the Aegon-Rhaena match if Maegor had remained a faithful husband to Ceryse Hightower?

Nope.

You're 100% right to state that Visenya was wrong to undermine Aenys and Aegon the Uncrowned. But there's no chance that the High Septon would have accepted the Aegon-Rhaena match.

How could he when he had earlier repudiated the Maegor-Rhaena match. Uncle-niece marriages are more incestuous than the universally accepted first cousin marriages widespread in the Seven Kingdoms but the marital union of uncle-niece is common enough and nowhere near as egregious as brother-sister unions.

The Faith Militant's rise to rebellion was inevitable. Aegon and Rhaena did and would have continued to have same type of problems that Aenys and Maegor had. In fact, when Aegon and Rhaena started having issues, Maegor was no longer a part of the equation.

Aegon would have needed to do what Maegor and Jaehaerys both did in order to preserve the Targaryen dynasty.

On 3/15/2023 at 1:31 PM, Lord_Tywin_Lannister said:

In her eyes, Aegon passed over her twice. Over her to be Queen as she was eldest, and then her son because I believe they were married first.

Aegon and Visenya were married first, but Maegor was the second son.

In fact, it took a very long time for Aegon and Visenya to even have Maegor. Aenys was already 5-7 years old at that time with his own dragon.

On 3/15/2023 at 2:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

Aenys may have not faced the problems he had had he not been cursed with Maegor and his ridiculous second marriage.

Aenys was a delusional idiot. Maegor had two wives yes (socially unacceptable but it is a concept that is not at all foreign to Westeros; the First Men practiced polygamy) but he had long since forsaken his claim and station in the Seven Kingdoms by the time that Aenys wed his heir to his eldest daughter.

He cosigned the marriage of brother and sister...knowing full well how the faith and the smallfolk would react.

That was madness.

On 3/15/2023 at 12:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

if Visenya actually poisoned and killed Aenys, then she ensured that Maegor could usurp the throne at a point before Aegon and Rhaena were ready to take over for their father. Aegon was a promising and capable young man - he would have made a fine king in 44-45 AC, say.

I don't believe Visenya actually poisoned and killed Aerys. It always seemed like propaganda to feed into her later action as an usurper. And she is a usurper and a traitor.

But Aenys was doing better than ever in her care until he had that heart attack when he heard that his two eldest children and his only grandchildren were trapped and besieged.

That's the moment when any respect I had for him was lost. His children and grandchildren were in danger of dying a miserable death and he just panics and keels over.

Save them! You can keel over later. Mount your dragon and defend them from those who would torture and kill them.

Thank God for guest right. Because, if it had not been for guest right, they would have been dead meat.