The warrior vs knight

[sweetsunray]

This is an oddity that simply sticks out like a sore thumb.

So, on the one hand we are told that "knights" are an Andal invention. But then one of the 7 aspects of the one true Andal god is referred to as the Warrior.

This raises the question whether knighthood and the title of "ser" is truly an Andal invention. Clearly, the Andals did not have knights or sers in their ancient and lost Andalos, or they would have referred to the aspect the Warrior as "the Knight" at some point.

Couple this with some heroes of a pre-Andal period being referred to as Ser (the title for a knight) or called a knight in songs and stories. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield for example is said to have been a knight of Garth the Green, and his name might just as well be "Ser win". Or a man such as Rodrik Cassel who is a northerner and served House Stark all of his life. Unlike Jorah we have no tale or explanation why Rodrik Cassel is referred to as Ser Rodrik Cassel in a region where it's said there are no "knights" only "warriors". It's not as if First Men truly require someone to explain to them what a knight is expected to be.

Is it possible that the title "ser" and the "knight" concept was actually a First Men concept, which was culturally appropriated by Andals and then stolen with the claim that only those annointed by a septon with the oils of the 7 could call themselves "knights"?

Or is there another explanation?

A few potential etymological words and concepts to keep in the back of our minds

• The word "knight" etymologically in our world stems from the word "knecht" which means servant. The Old English cniht also means servant, but also boy or youth and lad.
• "ser" comes from the Latin "to be"
• In our history, the honorary title for a knight is "sir", from "sire", in which we have the verb "to sire" (to father), but originates from the French -sieur from the full word "monsieur", which means my lord. Sir or Sire is an abbreviation of monsieur, dropping the "my" (mon-). Sire or sir is also tied to an "elderly man of importance". Is this why George uses the spelling of "ser" instead of "sir", as an abbreviation of servant, thereby keeping it closer to the meaning of knecht?
• The french word for a knight is "chevalier" from which the English "chivalry" stems from, and it means a mounted/horse riding soldier/warrior. The Dutch or German word for a knight is ridder or ritter, which derives from (horse) "rider".
• "wyn" in Serwyn derives from the Old English rune "w" (wynn) and means joy or happiness. It has several meanings: to win, be a champion, but also wine, and is also associated to the Welsh Gwyn, which means white. In Frissian it's tied to the meaning of wind.

So, I'm sure you might have some ideas on how this could relate to the sore thumb I mentioned, but also the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Serwyn who ends up being conflated with the white kingsguards, or the Winged Knight (not to be confused with Artys Arryn) who didn't ride a horse as much as he rode the wind via a falcon. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield for example is said to have been a knight of Garth the Green, and his name might just as well be "Ser win".

Reading about him was always strange. Ser Wyn, so just pronouncing his name is a give a way. Plus he was out there Medusaing dragons so all that would make him in recent and recorded history and not from the fairy tale ages of Symon star eyes and such, but in actuallity definitely from the fairytale age and probably mixed with other stories, maybe from totally different cultures 

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Or a man such as Rodrik Cassel who is a northerner and served House Stark all of his life.

Ser Rodrik is weird, I never gave that much thought tbh but I'd think if he was a knight of an old order or whatever we'd see more tidbits of clues laying around.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Is it possible that the title "ser" and the "knight" concept was actually a First Men concept, which was culturally appropriated by Andals and then stolen with the claim that only those annointed by a septon with the oils of the 7 could call themselves "knights"?

 So again, I don't think so. Or at the least not a direct continuum but this whole culturally appropriating knights is definitely not a foreign concept. 

Ser Beric has created a new order of knights but certainly not anointed with the 7 oils. (I do wonder if Cat continues this practice. Perhaps she will dub Brienne in her faith or maybe even Jaime?)

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, on the one hand we are told that "knights" are an Andal invention. But then one of the 7 aspects of the one true Andal god is referred to as the Warrior.

This raises the question whether knighthood and the title of "ser" is truly an Andal invention. Clearly, the Andals did not have knights or sers in their ancient and lost Andalos, or they would have referred to the aspect the Warrior as "the Knight" at some point.

Definitely interesting stuff though. My question is what language was this? I think the common tongue is a first men speech( but I could be wrong) so perhaps they moved words around to successfully convert the first men. (Although it could totally be the opposite like your suggesting)

Speaking of languages 

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

A few potential etymological words and concepts to keep in the back of our minds

• The word "knight" etymologically in our world stems from the word "knecht" which means servant. The Old English cniht also means servant, but also boy or youth and lad.
• "ser" comes from the Latin "to be"
• In our history, the honorary title for a knight is "sir", from "sire", in which we have the verb "to sire" (to father), but originates from the French -sieur from the full word "monsieur", which means my lord. Sir or Sire is an abbreviation of monsieur, dropping the "my" (mon-). Sire or sir is also tied to an "elderly man of importance". Is this why George uses the spelling of "ser" instead of "sir", as an abbreviation of servant, thereby keeping it closer to the meaning of knecht?
• The french word for a knight is "chevalier" from which the English "chivalry" stems from, and it means a mounted/horse riding soldier/warrior. The Dutch or German word for a knight is ridder or ritter, which derives from (horse) "rider".
• "wyn" in Serwyn derives from the Old English rune "w" (wynn) and means joy or happiness. It has several meanings: to win, be a champion, but also wine, and is also associated to the Welsh Gwyn, which means white. In Frissian it's tied to the meaning of wind.

Oh that's so cool! Especially the monsieur part. (I guess Ma'am or Madam is  from Mademoiselle?)

 

I do think a concept of a "true knight" like Sansa fairy tales would be a cool play if it turned out a true knight is not an appropriated one but one who fights for the old gods, like Bran. Who always wanted to be a knight

Eta. Speaking of play on words, this is may dad's favorite dad jokes of all dad jokes. 

Why was it called the dark ages? 

Because there were so many knights.

Bran and his teachers are totally obsessed with the darkness, which would mean night time, or perhaps knight time

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Plus he was out there Medusaing dragons so all that would make him in recent and recorded history and not from the fairy tale ages of Symon star eyes and such

Or there were dragons in Westeros long long before Old Valyria. After all, some "wild" ones lived at Dragonstone. How'd they get there? Are they descendants of some proto-Valyrian dragonrider time?

 

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think the common tongue is a first men speech( but I could be wrong) so perhaps they moved words around to successfully convert the first men. (Although it could totally be the opposite like your suggesting)

Glad you brought it up! The free folk, Thenns and Skagosi speak the Old Tongue. That was the language of the First Men, not the common tongue. The common tongue would therefore be mostly a language evolution caused by the Andal invastion, where only a few words are still of the Old Tongue. Since the Andals call that aspect Warrior, then warrior must be the Andal word, while "knight" might actually originate from the Old Tongue word?

ETA: On the Madam: French has madame. Ma has the same meaning as mon but is used in French for words of female gender. So French madame means "my lady". And the female equivalent honorary for Sir when a woman is "knighted" in English is Dame (not Lady). These would be influences of the Norman languages. So, originally there were cnihts (knights, aka horse riding warriors in service of a lord) in the UK, but after the Normans conquered Britain, this got mixed with French derived titles

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Or there were dragons in Westeros long long before Old Valyria. After all, some "wild" ones lived at Dragonstone. How'd they get there? Are they descendants of some proto-Valyrian dragonrider time?

Are your referring to Cannibal and friends? Like from dance with dragons time? I'd expect they were brought by Valerians or Targaryen cousins.

Idk, I'm such a skeptic that if it's not directly in my face I write it off as grumkins.

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Glad you brought it up! The free folk, Thenns and Skagosi speak the Old Tongue. That was the language of the First Men, not the common tongue. The common tongue would therefore be mostly a language evolution caused by the Andal invastion, where only a few words are still of the Old Tongue. Since the Andals call that aspect Warrior, then warrior must be the Andal word, while "knight" might actually originate from the Old Tongue word?

Yea I was thinking about the Thenns and how they can understand giants, but idk. When Ravens talked back in the day, and said more then corn, wasn't it in the common tongue? Unless of course the word for corn in old tongue is, "corn". Or I guess they can be bilingual. 

Some, I think, freefolk can speak old words, or understand them. But even if its their mother tongue, the one use is common. (Which doesn't prove anything of course, the freefolk have had direct dealings with the NW for X thousand years and could have definitely fallen under the sphere of influence, as opposed to the thenns)

 

I mean you definitely got me thinking, Smith. Why isn't that the worker then, instead of specifically a worker who makes a knights gear?

[sweetsunray]

59 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'd expect they were brought by Valerians or Targaryen cousins.

The Targaryens were the sole dragonriding family that settled near Westeros. Before, there were some Valyrian houses (Celtigar and Velaryon), but none were dragonriders. And the doom got rid of the rest. So, there are no cousins to leave behind their dragons.

 

59 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When Ravens talked back in the day, and said more then corn, wasn't it in the common tongue? Unless of course the word for corn in old tongue is, "corn". Or I guess they can be bilingual. 

Ravens talked more, because there were more skinchangers and greenseers. Those greenseers would have used the Old Tongue no? And if the maesters don't know the Old Tongue anymore and more greenseers and skinchangers disappeared, the ravens just became more silent, having to pick up new words of the common tongue. They can learn a new language, such as the common tongue, but there are only two greenseers who speak common tongue right now, and for a hundred years it was only one. All the other greenseers are CotF and their language sounds like wind, and water in the river and earth.

So, it's not so much that ravens lost speech or language, but that the maesters forgot the language taught to ravens.

Old Tongue is coarse, harsh and clanging. Perhaps when ravens squawk or screech certain sounds, they're talking Old Tongue? Just like CotF talking via weirwood tree sounds like rustling leaves?

ETA: Smith - a smith originally is not a servant, nor a boy, but the equivalent to a magician who knows the secrets of working metal and mixing it all (almost like alchemy). We see that equivalency in the Faith, because the Smith is the patron of septons, aka holy men.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why was it called the dark ages? 

Because there were so many knights.

Bran and his teachers are totally obsessed with the darkness, which would mean night time, or perhaps knight time

Love it!

[sweetsunray]

Also had the thought of how the men of the mountains in the North still refer to important people as The Ned, not Lord Stark.

So, Serwyn would likely be referred by them as The Wyn in their storytelling hour.

+

Old Tongue uses short names, often (but not exclusively) with just one vowel. Wyn would fit perfectly as a First Men name.

Notice that the ravens too tend to speak or repeat words with just one vowel: corn, dead, snow, ... George has Mormont's raven repeat Benjen's name once in aGoT, and in that case it's "ben-jen", like two short words.

Hehehehe - maybe the Andals got the "ser" from raven speech. So, First Men had stories about "knights" and the Andals translated it as "servant", but ravens dropped the -vant and just said "ser".

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, on the one hand we are told that "knights" are an Andal invention. But then one of the 7 aspects of the one true Andal god is referred to as the Warrior.

This raises the question whether knighthood and the title of "ser" is truly an Andal invention. Clearly, the Andals did not have knights or sers in their ancient and lost Andalos, or they would have referred to the aspect the Warrior as "the Knight" at some point.

It's not as if First Men truly require someone to explain to them what a knight is expected to be.

Is it possible that the title "ser" and the "knight" concept was actually a First Men concept, which was culturally appropriated by Andals and then stolen with the claim that only those annointed by a septon with the oils of the 7 could call themselves "knights"?

So, I'm sure you might have some ideas on how this could relate to the sore thumb I mentioned, but also the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Serwyn who ends up being conflated with the white kingsguards, or the Winged Knight (not to be confused with Artys Arryn) who didn't ride a horse as much as he rode the wind via a falcon. 

 

Nice.  I read through your and @Hugorfonics conversation a couple of times as it was enlightening.  I kept going back to Ned Stark and honor.  Before you got to mention the Winged Knight I was already going through house words for mentions of the word honor.  Higher than Honor and Family, Duty, Honor.  That's all I came up with off the top of my pointy head, still when any of us think honor I think it's safe to say we think Starks.   Kings of Winter, First Men, ancient bloodline, yep.  If I may use Ned Stark as an example of what the real warrior First Man was that almost answers it, doesn't it?  A badass who understood what his job was, protect the innocent, defend the weak, smite evil doers, do your job well and always do it with honor.  In that First Men employed the use of some titles, such as King, presumably Queen, why wouldn't there be other nomenclature in use to identify a person's status or use?  

We know written language wasn't in wide use among the First Men when those clever Andals invaded and brought much better stuff to Westeros.  (Sorry, up to Discworld #26, can't help the sarcasm.)  By virtue of being the authors of their conquest the Andals get to claim whatever they like and this knight business fits in so well.  You've caught them out.  Hard to believe the Warrior, a most un peaceful aspect would be the umbrella nomenclature for those honor bound knights of duty.   I say the Andals appropriated the concept of knighthood if not the term itself from the First Men.  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Warrior is the archetype though, a knight is a specialist. I'm sure the Andals had many who considered themselves warriors who weren't knights.

[Hugorfonics]

53 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The Targaryens were the sole dragonriding family that settled near Westeros. Before, there were some Valyrian houses (Celtigar and Velaryon), but none were dragonriders. And the doom got rid of the rest. So, there are no cousins to leave behind their dragons.

Well not dragons but dragon eggs, but for sure it's not very likely. 

I just think we'd hear more of dragons in the age of heroes bedsides mirror shield. But maybe they were just native to Dragonstone area? Or maybe even the Targs colonized Dragonstone because there be dragons.

53 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ravens talked more, because there were more skinchangers and greenseers.

Yea, who are now the ravens we see? Like Mormonts and the ones hanging with Coldhands? 

54 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Those greenseers would have used the Old Tongue no?

I'm not sure. The children no doubt, but if the common tongue was a human tongue, like I don't think the children taught the first men how to speak. 

The first first men who landed on Westeros came as like a tribe to conquer, like the Andals. What happened to that language?

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

And if the maesters don't know the Old Tongue anymore and more greenseers and skinchangers disappeared, the ravens just became more silent, having to pick up new words of the common tongue. They can learn a new language, such as the common tongue, but there are only two greenseers who speak common tongue right now, and for a hundred years it was only one. All the other greenseers are CotF and their language sounds like wind, and water in the river and earth.

(So idk if the bird can learn anything or if its like an immortal being from the age of heroes living it's millionth life)

But Leaf speaks common. Whyd she learn that unless dealing with first men, she definitely wasn't talking to Andals. (Well idk about definitely, but probably)

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

So, it's not so much that ravens lost speech or language, but that the maesters forgot the language taught to ravens.

But we sometimes do understand crows. And corn, sure that's like a parrot trick. Which is what Janos obviously has to say about the word "Snow", except it wasn't taught that. Is the word Snow the same sound as old tongue? Doubtful 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Old Tongue is coarse, harsh and clanging. Perhaps when ravens squawk or screech certain sounds, they're talking Old Tongue? Just like CotF talking via weirwood tree sounds like rustling leaves?

I think that's just the wind lol. 

Like I said though, I'm skeptic by nature. (I mean whatever the wind is trying to get across, Arya hears it loud and clear. I personally think it's all in her head, but patterned with her dad (and I guess her siblings) it does appear to have some, idk, godly, magical, whatever outworldly qualities)

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

ETA: Smith - a smith originally is not a servant, nor a boy, but the equivalent to a magician who knows the secrets of working metal and mixing it all (almost like alchemy). We see that equivalency in the Faith, because the Smith is the patron of septons, aka holy men.

Well that's even more about a knight then. A regular smith could also make like nails and horseshoes as opposed to like Valyrian steel.

33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Love it!

Lol yea me too

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Also had the thought of how the men of the mountains in the North still refer to important people as The Ned, not Lord Stark.

So, Serwyn would likely be referred by them as The Wyn in their storytelling hour.

+

Old Tongue uses short names, often (but not exclusively) with just one vowel. Wyn would fit perfectly as a First Men name.

Notice that the ravens too tend to speak or repeat words with just one vowel: corn, dead, snow, ... George has Mormont's raven repeat Benjen's name once in aGoT, and in that case it's "ben-jen", like two short words.

"The Mance to some" 

 

Now I can't wait for Dany to hook up with team old gods and except the raven to announce her.

"You say Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains."

"Corn?"

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The first first men who landed on Westeros came as like a tribe to conquer, like the Andals. What happened to that language?

That was the Old Tongue. So when the giants speak Old Tongue, it's a language they learned from First Men, which indicates that giants and First Men had a close relationship at some point, and not always a good one - as slaves perhaps.

 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Leaf speaks common. Whyd she learn that unless dealing with first men, she definitely wasn't talking to Andals. (Well idk about definitely, but probably)

Leaf was born in the time of the dragon and walked the world of men for 200 years. Any language she learned to talk with humans would have to be common tongue.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But we sometimes do understand crows. And corn, sure that's like a parrot trick. Which is what Janos obviously has to say about the word "Snow", except it wasn't taught that. Is the word Snow the same sound as old tongue? Doubtful 

I didn't mean to say that corn, snow, etc are old tongue words... but they are "short" common tongue words with just one vowel. And we are told that the Old Tongue uses short names and short words, which are mostly one vowel words and names. So, the common tongue word snow is as easy for a raven to learn than words of the old tongue.

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Now I can't wait for Dany to hook up with team old gods and except the raven to announce her.

"You say Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains."

"Corn?"

As for the language of the CotF: it's called the True Tongue. Here are some quotes of Bran's chapters in the cave, the world book, and Sam's chapter at the village

Quote

Sometimes the sound of song would drift up from someplace far below. The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs. [...]  And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. (aDwD, Bran III)

Quote

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day. (tWoIaF - Ancient History: The Dawn Age)

Quote

"Fair." The raven landed on his shoulder. "Fair, far, fear." It flapped its wings, and screamed along with Gilly. The wights were almost on her. He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know. The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around them the trees groaned and creaked. Sam Tarly turned the color of curdled milk, and his eyes went wide as plates. Ravens! They were in the weirwood, hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white branches, peering between the leaves. (aSoS, Samwell III)

The CotF speak a language that souns like natural phenomena, which is handy if you wish to hunt an animal or hide from humans.

[sweetsunray]

33 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Warrior is the archetype though, a knight is a specialist. I'm sure the Andals had many who considered themselves warriors who weren't knights.

Sure, and the majority of the knights we see that were anointed knights by a septon are the brutal archetype, the warrior... not the knight, and yet they are called knights by the Andal culture. Is that not exactly the Hound's point about his brother and the other ilk that Tywin uses?

But, my point still stands... if the Warrior is an aspect of the one true god, then should that not be the more divine example of a "knight" instead of a mere warrior? After all they do prey to the Warrior for "protection" which is more in line with a chivalric knight concept than a generic word for a man whose job it is to kill in war.

 

[Craving Peaches]

I understand what you're saying but I don't see that much of issue. The Warrior covers all fighting men including knights. It's a generic archetype. It would include poor fellows as well, and Andal warriors who weren't knights. Now it may be possible that knights existed before the Andals but it is equally possible that some of stories were changed later to fit in better with Andal culture. I mean if you look at the legendary hero Dietrich von Bern, he's often portrayed as a knight, even though he was supposed to be around at the time of Attila the Hun when there were no knights.

[Hugorfonics]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Nice.  I read through your and @Hugorfonics conversation a couple of times as it was enlightening.  I kept going back to Ned Stark and honor.  Before you got to mention the Winged Knight I was already going through house words for mentions of the word honor.  Higher than Honor and Family, Duty, Honor.  That's all I came up with off the top of my pointy head, still when any of us think honor I think it's safe to say we think Starks.   Kings of Winter, First Men, ancient bloodline, yep.  If I may use Ned Stark as an example of what the real warrior First Man was that almost answers it, doesn't it?  A badass who understood what his job was, protect the innocent, defend the weak, smite evil doers, do your job well and always do it with honor. 

I think those are good descriptions about both, to add (a bit rudely lol), incapable of thinking for ones self and in contrast to the father above, obedient and submissive to authority. I personally think those are the general highlights of the Ned or the warrior.

 

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  In that First Men employed the use of some titles, such as King, presumably Queen, why wouldn't there be other nomenclature in use to identify a person's status or use?  

Yea exactly! And while I completely believe that mirror shield or mirror eyes are as fake as Achilles or Samson, something about that story has roots. There definitely was a champion warrior class in the age of heroes, who I agree, should have a distinguished name

31 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We know written language wasn't in wide use among the First Men when those clever Andals invaded and brought much better stuff to Westeros.  (Sorry, up to Discworld #26, can't help the sarcasm.) 

If your not writing like Pratchett, your fucking up.

 

32 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

By virtue of being the authors of their conquest the Andals get to claim whatever they like and this knight business fits in so well.  You've caught them out.  Hard to believe the Warrior, a most un peaceful aspect would be the umbrella nomenclature for those honor bound knights of duty.   I say the Andals appropriated the concept of knighthood if not the term itself from the First Men.  

Yea the more I think, it's pretty convincing.

What did Andal knights do? Kill children and human children? Burn em alive, while swinging on their very much alive and also burning tree? If those knights are anything like modern knights then absolutely.

I'd cancel that shit too, treat it like Hitler's Mustache and just, be done with that type of work.

Which brings me back to the Brotherhood. What if Cat takes the IT? Rhllor is here to stay and the jealous god burns all the septs, who would rock the title ser? If it just brings up the idea of of Stoneheart massacres, then once again, I'd cancel that shit too

 

[Hugorfonics]

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That was the Old Tongue. So when the giants speak Old Tongue, it's a language they learned from First Men, which indicates that giants and First Men had a close relationship at some point, and not always a good one - as slaves perhaps.

Yea I guess that makes sense. Idk, if we were to believe the stories (which I don't? But do?) Giants helped build the outline of the wall, so the hidden door it shouldn't be able to understand Sam

Like the NW oaths, it's definitely older then Andals but it's in common tongue 

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Leaf was born in the time of the dragon and walked the world of men for 200 years. Any language she learned to talk with humans would have to be common tongue.

Ah word. Thanks.

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for the language of the CotF: it's called the True Tongue. Here are some quotes of Bran's chapters in the cave, the world book, and Sam's chapter at the village

Ok cool. Thanks! (So many languages! It's like the U.N)

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I understand what you're saying but I don't see that much of issue. The Warrior covers all fighting men including knights. It's a generic archetype. It would include poor fellows as well, and Andal warriors who weren't knights. Now it may be possible that knights existed before the Andals but it is equally possible that some of stories were changed later to fit in better with Andal culture. I mean if you look at the legendary hero Dietrich von Bern, he's often portrayed as a knight, even though he was supposed to be around at the time of Attila the Hun when there were no knights.

I get that, but this is the quote that has me irked for a week now, that I've been pondering "why the hell do they still refer to this aspect as the Warrior" if they allegedly invented the title and profession of knights and knighthood?

Quote

It was midday when Brienne heard chanting drifting through the bare brown trees. "What is that sound?" Ser Creighton asked.
"Voices, raised in prayer." Brienne knew the chant. They are beseeching the Warrior for protection, asking the Crone to light their way. (aFfC, Brienne I)

It sticks out especially, because the night that Brienne meets the two "hedge knights" they are steeped in Green Knight references (green, gold, ermine). By daylight they are less mystical: skinning "squirrels" and pissing on trees, at the end of their meeting with the poor fellows they're referred to as "false knights" (for refusing to SERVE)

Quote

"Join us, friends," urged a spare small man in a threadbare septon's robe, who wore a crystal on a thong about his neck. "Westeros has need of every sword."
"We were bound for Duskendale," declared Ser Creighton, "but mayhaps we could see you safely to King's Landing."
"If you have the coin to pay us for this escort," added Ser Illifer, who seemed practical as well as penniless.
"Sparrows need no gold," the septon said. [...] "It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven."
"I love them well enough," said Illifer, "yet I must eat."
"So must all the Mother's children."
"We are bound for Duskendale," Ser Illifer said flatly.
One of the begging brothers spat, and a woman gave a moan. "You are false knights," said the big man with the star carved on his chest. Several others brandished their cudgels. (aFfC, Brienne I)

And here's the issue... even a sellsword or false knight is still a warrior. That was the one they prayed too, right? But it isn't a warrior they want, but true knights, since only true knights would offer them protection without requiring gold.

 

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If your not writing like Pratchett, your fucking up.

What did Andal knights do? Kill children and human children? Burn em alive, while swinging on their very much alive and also burning tree? If those knights are anything like modern knights then absolutely.

I'd cancel that shit too, treat it like Hitler's Mustache and just, be done with that type of work.

Which brings me back to the Brotherhood. What if Cat takes the IT? Rhllor is here to stay and the jealous god burns all the septs, who would rock the title ser? If it just brings up the idea of of Stoneheart massacres, then once again, I'd cancel that shit too

I am approaching this as Commander Vines and Corporal Cheery Littlebottom would.  Well no, maybe not burning babies in the trees, but I don't think they understood that whole glorious concept of honor and dug it once they saw it in action.  And likely made it look better, like when the Barbarians got a social studies and etiquette teacher.  Knights are polished, knights are cool.  Warriors are a short term thrill seekers sitting in a bar after it's all said and done singing Glory Days with 4 fingers and a foot missing.  Knights can be utilized after wars...these guys can be sports entertainment!  I think the Andals adopted the whole idea once they decided they invented it.  Then they added to it, the armor, the pageantry, probably the very stupid vows too.  Because the Andals didn't really understand what being a knight really was, only that it was cool.  

This knighthood of the BwB is a really interesting order of knights.  I don't think Thoros will actually let Cat take the throne.  He doesn't seem to like her that much.  Relax, Thoros really may be a knight under all that pink and weirdness.  

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like the NW oaths, it's definitely older then Andals but it's in common tongue 

Very good point.

That's an issue if it was an actual creature. But I think we're supposed to wave that away as "it's magic" and "magic walls understand any language". After all, the Wall was built before "wildlings" and Thenns and kings-beyond-the-Wall. The latter and the Skagosi are the speakers of Old Tongue, because they were largely isolated from Andal cultural influence - no maesters, no septons, no trade... except for the free folk who raid. 

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

And likely made it look better, like when the Barbarians got a social studies and etiquette teacher.  Knights are polished, knights are cool.  Warriors are a short term thrill seekers sitting in a bar after it's all said and done singing Glory Days with 4 fingers and a foot missing.  Knights can be utilized after wars...these guys can be sports entertainment! 

Vimes would be proud

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am approaching this as Commander Vines and Corporal Cheery Littlebottom would.  Well no, maybe not burning babies in the trees, but I don't think they understood that whole glorious concept of honor and dug it once they saw it in action.  And likely made it look better, like when the Barbarians got a social studies and etiquette teacher.  Knights are polished, knights are cool.  Warriors are a short term thrill seekers sitting in a bar after it's all said and done singing Glory Days with 4 fingers and a foot missing.  Knights can be utilized after wars...these guys can be sports entertainment!  I think the Andals adopted the whole idea once they decided they invented it.  Then they added to it, the armor, the pageantry, probably the very stupid vows too.  Because the Andals didn't really understand what being a knight really was, only that it was cool.  

So while Lancel or whomever can claim to fight the knights fight in the name of God, Bran I think can claim the responsibility a bit better. So the vows I think were always there. But agreed, they probably added all those bright colors and goofy looking helmets because they didn't want to look too cool.

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This knighthood of the BwB is a really interesting order of knights.  I don't think Thoros will actually let Cat take the throne.  He doesn't seem to like her that much.  Relax, Thoros really may be a knight under all that pink and weirdness.  

Yea like who knighted this guy with the seven oils? I thought this was supposed to mean something lol.

No he can't seem to stand her, but I don't see him really doing anything about it. Mainly because I feel like I know what Tom, Lem, Anguy, the big Dornish guy would do before Thoros. He just always appeared like Berics hypeman so I don't know what he's fully capable of.

But yea I definitely don't see Cat on the throne, I was just using the hypothetical as a comparison within Westerosi cancel culture 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Very good point.

That's an issue if it was an actual creature. But I think we're supposed to wave that away as "it's magic" and "magic walls understand any language". After all, the Wall was built before "wildlings" and Thenns and kings-beyond-the-Wall. The latter and the Skagosi are the speakers of Old Tongue, because they were largely isolated from Andal cultural influence - no maesters, no septons, no trade... except for the free folk who raid. 

Eh? I'm not a fan of that cop out. Sam had to do the whole act, like he was pulled over for drunk driving or something. He couldn't just nod and say "you know me", which if it was just magic I think would totally suffice. 

Although I do think there's some magic involved, if Bran for instance said the words I dont think I'td open.