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The warrior vs knight


sweetsunray
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30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I get that, but this is the quote that has me irked for a week now, that I've been pondering "why the hell do they still refer to this aspect as the Warrior" if they allegedly invented the title and profession of knights and knighthood?

I understand why it irks you but I think it's just one of those things where one generic god can cover multiple professions. I mean we have sailors/cobblers praying to the Smith...

Keeping it as 'the Warrior' rather than 'the Knight' makes it more accessible as it covers fighting folk who aren't knights, like the poor fellows, and as you say it is likely the Andals didn't always have knights.

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

:D

Vimes would be proud

So while Lancel or whomever can claim to fight the knights fight in the name of God, Bran I think can claim the responsibility a bit better. So the vows I think were always there. But agreed, they probably added all those bright colors and goofy looking helmets because they didn't want to look too cool.

Yea like who knighted this guy with the seven oils? I thought this was supposed to mean something lol.

No he can't seem to stand her, but I don't see him really doing anything about it. Mainly because I feel like I know what Tom, Lem, Anguy, the big Dornish guy would do before Thoros. He just always appeared like Berics hypeman so I don't know what he's fully capable of.

But yea I definitely don't see Cat on the throne, I was just using the hypothetical as a comparison within Westerosi cancel culture 

 

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That's just it, Bran really does get it, he is steeped in the honor of the First Men.  I think enough time has passed for the Andals to have sufficiently mixed with the First Men now.  What's it been?  3000?  5000 years now?  I think there are definitely people in all regions of Westeros who do really understand what knighthood is even on an island off the Stormlands where even an awkward young woman gets it all the way down in her bones.  Ah, if only the Andals had been smart enough to start up a guild of knights.  This bit with the oils is the way the Faith wants to get an exclusive on knighting and I bet it didn't become fashionable until right after those rats greased Aegon up for his proper crowning.   He should have given all those bastards the finger.  It is surprising the Faith doesn't grease everyone up to decree them maidens, crones, fathers etc.   Especially maidens.  While all we know about the First Men's gods is that they gave them up for the old gods and maybe that is the difference between the Andal's warrior and 1st Men's "knight"?  The 1st Men fighter dude fought for very different reasons, possibly in a very different way?  

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5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I understand why it irks you but I think it's just one of those things where one generic god can cover multiple professions. I mean we have sailors/cobblers praying to the Smith...

Keeping it as 'the Warrior' rather than 'the Knight' makes it more accessible as it covers fighting folk who aren't knights, like the poor fellows, and as you say it is likely the Andals didn't always have knights.

Exactly though. The smith is doing a job that sailors and cobblers don't, but are relatable. And a smith, ask Gendry, is a distinguished job in the Westeros age so it's like kinda above cobblers. Like not every one who lights up for the father is a father, they just want that generic advice and look out. 

Sometimes people, or actually usually people pray to the mother, many a dudes. They don't necessarily aspire to be the god but wants it's essence or something.

So why not knight I think is a valid question, especially since they're all about them and no other culture, except all the other ones, allegedly use them.

 

Was trial by combat a first man thing or Andal? I think first man, which seems very knightly 

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6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am approaching this as Commander Vines and Corporal Cheery Littlebottom would.  Well no, maybe not burning babies in the trees, but I don't think they understood that whole glorious concept of honor and dug it once they saw it in action.  And likely made it look better, like when the Barbarians got a social studies and etiquette teacher.  Knights are polished, knights are cool.  Warriors are a short term thrill seekers sitting in a bar after it's all said and done singing Glory Days with 4 fingers and a foot missing.  Knights can be utilized after wars...these guys can be sports entertainment!  I think the Andals adopted the whole idea once they decided they invented it.  Then they added to it, the armor, the pageantry, probably the very stupid vows too.  Because the Andals didn't really understand what being a knight really was, only that it was cool.  

This knighthood of the BwB is a really interesting order of knights.  I don't think Thoros will actually let Cat take the throne.  He doesn't seem to like her that much.  Relax, Thoros really may be a knight under all that pink and weirdness.  

The Andals adopted a lot of "cool stuff", including building with stone.

There's not 1 Andalos city ruins or remnants on the maps of Essos! And the reason is because even the last of their Andalos kings built his fortress in wood.

Based on the stories of hairy men, Huzhor Amai in the grasslands, hills of Norvos, etc, I've been able to make this reconstruction about Andalos:

Their claim that the Smith taught them how to work iron is a lie. Nope, it were the Rhoynar who taught them that. They didn't "originate" from the Axe, but were a people that lived in the hills of Norvos and the Axe.

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Yet before the Valyrians another people dwelt along the Noyne where Norvos stands today, raising rude villages of their own. Who were these predecessors? Some believe them to have been kin to the mazemakers of Lorath, but that seems unlikely, for they built in wood, not stone, and left no mazes to confound us. Others suggest that they were cousins of the men of Ib. Most, however, believe them to have been Andals. (tWoIaF - The Free Cities: Norvos)

They lived in wooden constructions (of which nothing remains) and at best used bronze. The hairy men used to live around the Silver Sea but were defeated when human tribes united and one of those tribes who knew iron smithing made their king Huzhor Amai his armor.

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ales are told of the Hairy Men, a race of shaggy savage warriors, who rode to battle on unicorns. Though larger than the Ibbenese of the present, they may well have been their forebears. (tWoIaF - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands)

He's known to have worn the pelt of the king of the hairy men... you do that as a sign of victory over them. So, the hairy men fled defeated and migrated west, until they came across the native people of the hills of Norvos and the Axe - the proto-Andals. Without iron, the hairy men were superior, and the natives retreated into the Axe. The Rhoynar though did know iron making, and didn't like the hairy men dominating the region of the upper rivers that flow into the Rhoyne. So they went with a large army north and took care of the hairy men, chasing them further west towards the bay of Lorath. But the Rhoynar also didn't want to stay in the hills of Norvos (too cold to their liking). Of course, they knew that if they moved out of the Hills of Norvos, the hairy men might attempt to move back into the hills of Norvos, so they taught the proto-Andals that had survived in the Axe their smithing.

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The fact that the Andals forged iron has been taken by some as proof that the Seven guided them—that the Smith himself taught them this art—and so do the holy texts teach. But the Rhoynar were already an advanced civilization at this time, and they too knew of iron, so it takes only the study of a map to realize that the earliest Andals must have had contact with the Rhoynar. The Darkwash and the Noyne lay directly in the path of the Andals' migration, and there are remnants of Rhoynish outposts in Andalos, according to the Norvoshi historian Doro Golathis. And it would not be the first time that men learned of the working of iron from the Rhoynar; (tWoIaF - Ancient History: the Arrival of the Andals)

Now having the ability of iron making, the Andals retook the lands from the Axe, hills of Norvos and started their first expansion: the bay of Lorath and slaughtered many of the hairy men. Now that the Andals had iron, the hairy men had no other escape route but across water and fled to the islands of Lorath, but lived at the shores shunning the mazes of the mazemakers. The Andals expand more south and the larger Andalos is crafted. Eventually, the Andals even venture across the water to the islands of Lorath, where they killed the remaining males, and enslaved the surviving women and children of the hairy men.

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For a time the isles were home to a small, dark, hairy people, akin to the men of Ib. Fisherfolk, they lived along the coasts and shunned the great mazes of their predecessors. They in turn were displaced by Andals, pushing north from Andalos to the shores of Lorath Bay and across the bay in longships. Clad in mail and wielding iron swords and axes, the Andals swept across the islands, slaughtering the hairy men in the name of their seven-faced god and taking their women and children as slaves. (tWoIaF - The Free Cities: Lorath)

And it is in Lorath we find the evidence that despite the iron and living on the islands of Lorath for thousand years, the Andals still built with wood.

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Soon each island had its own king, whilst the largest boasted four. Ever a quarrelsome people, the Andals spent the next thousand years warring one upon the other, but at last a warrior styling himself Qarlon the Great brought all the islands under his sway. The histories, such as they are, claim he raised a great wooden keep at the center of Lorassyon's vast, haunted maze and decorated his halls with the heads of his slain foes. It was Qarlon's dream to make himself King of All Andals, and to that end he went forth time and time again against the petty kings of Andalos. After twenty years and as many wars, the writ of Qarlon the Great extended from the lagoon where Braavos would one day rise all the way east to the Axe, and as far south as the headwaters of the Upper Rhoyne and Noyne.

This Qarlon's pride extended as far as the Free City of Norvos, already established in the hills of Norvos, by the people of Valyria who wanted their own isolated religious city. He besieged Norvos, and the dragonlords of Valyria came to the aid of the Norvosi, burning all of Qarlon's army, and then continued on to the islands of Lorath and burned and scorched it all.

So, Qarlon was one of the last Andalos kings, long after the Andals had already been migrating and conquering Westeros. Why do I say this? Well, the city of Norvos could not have been safely established as a Free City without the Valyrians having secured the Rhoyne first from the Rhoynar. Norvos must date from the time after the Valyrians had destroyed the last city of the Rhoynar and Nymeria had fled with her people. And it's after the defeat of the Rhoynar that Andalos starts to feel the pressure of the Valyrians. Some fled west in their longboats, others fled north to the islands of Lorath. And Qarlon was still building wooden keeps, not stone keeps.

They have been appropriators much of their history. And there's nothing wrong with learning and adapting. But they're liars whenever they claim one of their seven taught them something or they invented it. They didn't.

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@Craving Peachesand @sweetsunray, I don't think I've shared it for a long time around here.  But your conversation and that little bit @Aejohn the Conqueroo dropped in with reminded me of something I read in Beyond The Wall, a collection of essays exploring GRRM's work on ASOIAF.  Elio and Linda contributed in this book.  There is a chapter where one of the writers describes a time Martin was heavily involved in Dungeons and Dragons to the point he was doing nothing else.  After reading this I did a bit of looking into D&D to better understand what that's all about.  Turns out there are these character classes involved in this game.  I had to incorporate these character classes into my heroes list as it became obvious these are the characters he wrote into our options for the sword wielders.  

I've never played the game, so pardon my really abstract understanding here, but the basic "fighter class" characters are" Barbarian, Fighter and Paladin.  Curiously, no warrior.  However, a Paladin is a holy knight.   Just thought I would toss that in to the conversational salad for your consideration.  

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30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Eh? I'm not a fan of that cop out. Sam had to do the whole act, like he was pulled over for drunk driving or something. He couldn't just nod and say "you know me", which if it was just magic I think would totally suffice. 

Although I do think there's some magic involved, if Bran for instance said the words I dont think I'td open.

I agree it's a cop out. And I don't like it much either.

But Thenns and Skagosi prove that the Old Tongue is the original First Man language. :dunno:

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23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's just it, Bran really does get it, he is steeped in the honor of the First Men.  I think enough time has passed for the Andals to have sufficiently mixed with the First Men now.  What's it been?  3000?  5000 years now?  I think there are definitely people in all regions of Westeros who do really understand what knighthood is even on an island off the Stormlands where even an awkward young woman gets it all the way down in her bones.  Ah, if only the Andals had been smart enough to start up a guild of knights.  This bit with the oils is the way the Faith wants to get an exclusive on knighting and I bet it didn't become fashionable until right after those rats greased Aegon up for his proper crowning.   He should have given all those bastards the finger.  It is surprising the Faith doesn't grease everyone up to decree them maidens, crones, fathers etc.   Especially maidens.  While all we know about the First Men's gods is that they gave them up for the old gods and maybe that is the difference between the Andal's warrior and 1st Men's "knight"?  The 1st Men fighter dude fought for very different reasons, possibly in a very different way?  

Enough time, that's for sure.

Knights, how we know em, like that story that John Lennon gave back his knighthood cuz he didn't want to be associated with thieves and murderers. Oh I love that. Asoiaf has too many kg beating Sansa and just straight blunt talk from Sandor and Jaime to convince me knights are anything admirable.

But if it's not knight but night? That's kinda cool. Creepy shit, winter is coming, Bran always wanted to be a night! 

Bran wouldn't beat Sansa, he might skinchange Theon, so it's all kinda terrible lol.

 

Aegon had to tread carefully, he barely made it out of his conquest. Just lots of luck compounded with the cravens we call Westerosi. So he kinda had to do what Oldtown said, a few times. But the Faith doesn't really wild out, they kinda play low key. Less then the maesters. Aegons kids thought otherwise which leaves us in this weird vacuum we know for the past 250 years, but, thanks Cersei!

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5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But if it's not knight but night? That's kinda cool. Creepy shit, winter is coming, Bran always wanted to be a night! 

Bran wouldn't beat Sansa, he might skinchange Theon, so it's all kinda terrible lol.

Aegon had to tread carefully, he barely made it out of his conquest. Just lots of luck compounded with the cravens we call Westerosi. So he kinda had to do what Oldtown said, a few times. But the Faith doesn't really wild out, they kinda play low key. Less then the maesters. Aegons kids thought otherwise which leaves us in this weird vacuum we know for the past 250 years, but, thanks Cersei!

Oh man, it just clicked.  That is frickin creepy.  

Cowboy Up Aegon had a dragon, a big ass dragon.  He should have burned their sorry asses to the ground.  No one will ever convince me that man was Maegor's father.  Never.  He was 100% his mother's son.  

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I searched for the world book quote again about Serwyn

Quote

But when the singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—an institution that was only formed during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror—we can see why it is that few of these tales can ever be trusted. The septons who first wrote them down took what details suited them and added others, and the singers changed them—sometimes beyond all recognition—for the sake of a warm place in some lord's hall. In such a way does some longdead First Man become a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings thousands of years after he lived (if he ever did). The legion of boys and youths made ignorant of the past history of Westeros by these foolish tales cannot be numbered. (tWoIaF - Ancient History: the Age of Heroes

And here we have it! It weren't the maesters of the Citadel who first wrote down the tales of the Age of Heroes, but the SEPTONS of the Andals, because the Andals did have writing (maybe it's the sole thing they ever invented themselves).

The original maesters and First Men of course didn't require writing, because they had greenseers who could actually see the past and the truth of it. (Which is why I think trial by combat is an Andal custom, not a First Men thing. FM didn't need trial by combat to learn the truth, just drag a guy before a weirwood and his lies would not hold up) But the Septons of the 7 were free to alter the details and add stuff to their liking and with the slaughter of the children and First Men who resisted, they managed to make the Citadel reliant on written history only.

The septons are considered as reliable, and the "singers" as liars, but the Singer (CotF) sing the True Tongue.

And here's what Tyrion soon learns as he journeys through Andalos from Illyrio

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Another passage from The Seven-Pointed Star came back to him. "The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates."

"Your Smith must have been Rhoynish," Illyrio quipped. "The Andals learned the art of working iron from the Rhoynar who dwelt along the river. This is known."

"Not by our septons." (aDwD - Tyrion II)

 

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9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh man, it just clicked.  That is frickin creepy.  

Yea I hope it's true. But mainly because its like that stupid joke. But also cuz it's pretty cool and creepy, like Brans stupid stories.

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Cowboy Up Aegon had a dragon, a big ass dragon.  He should have burned their sorry asses to the ground.  No one will ever convince me that man was Maegor's father.  Never.  He was 100% his mother's son.  

If Aegon disrespected the faith he'd have exacerbated the war like crazy. Yea he had a big dragon, two medium ones, two sisters one maybe brother and sellswords and fishermen, against something the size of China. 

Cowboy up and there will be a new sheriff in town.

But Maegor wasn't born to be a cowboy (although of course he was) he was born to be a king, they said so! Its different when a man wants to be king, he must gain trust and support. But once the dynasty has been founded, rebellion gets crushed 

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@Hugorfonics and @Curled Finger

With regards to the BwB:

Interesting that they are the first within Westeros who basically say "we're done with banners, we're fighting to protect the smallfolk", which is what the High Sparrow almost asked of the two hedge knights, except he wants them to fight for the Faith not the people. (tricksy man)

But they are still very much Andalized. So they still do trial by combat, but believing that Rh'llor is the true god who will aid Beric in killing the guilty or be killed himself (and resurrected again).

Under LS we have a witness and murder victim judging (an undead ghost), which is closer to the truth that trial by combat, but LS cannot truly look into the past and hearts of people. That's why her judgment is too severe.

That's where Bran comes in (of whom Ned said could be a High Septon one day). I believe that after the RW2.0, LS will want to execute Jaime for "his crimes" and that she will do it in the godswood of Riverrun, in front of the slender weirwood where once Robb prayed and beheaded Karstark. But that in that moment Bran himself will intervene, via the weirwood. His judgment will be forgiveness of Jaime. 

That's when we will have an order of true knights in service of a greenseer, who has no need of trial by combat, and that order still consists of knights without banners.

I think the whole anti-magic agenda truly stems from the Andals and the septons foremostly (which is why Septon Barth was pretty much deemed a heretic). The red god Rh'llor is imo not real, but the magic is. So, that faith opened the way for Andal knights and followers of the Faith to be open to magic and how to use it to protect the people. It's the necessary step to eventually abandon Rh'llor and instead "go green" (knight/night).

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And here we have it! It weren't the maesters of the Citadel who first wrote down the tales of the Age of Heroes, but the SEPTONS of the Andals, because the Andals did have writing (maybe it's the sole thing they ever invented themselves).

Ahh we do! Good reasoning. And I could totally understand why a language that can be read is preferable to one that you need a bird for. 

Ok cool. Common tongue is an Andal thing.

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The original maesters and First Men of course didn't require writing, because they had greenseers who could actually see the past and the truth of it. (Which is why I think trial by combat is an Andal custom, not a First Men thing. FM didn't need trial by combat to learn the truth, just drag a guy before a weirwood and his lies would not hold up)

I mean, reading is nice. But definitely agree and see your point about the trial.

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But the Septons of the 7 were free to alter the details and add stuff to their liking and with the slaughter of the children and First Men who resisted, they managed to make the Citadel reliant on written history only.

The pen is mightier then the sword. Very good.

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The septons are considered as reliable, and the "singers" as liars, but the Singer (CotF) sing the True Tongue.

Yea lots of rewritten/appropriated/coordinated history about things things that may or definitely did not happenen by people who, if it wasn't written, I'd say they never existed either. I mean what's written? Paper doesn't last. Did Andals have paper? So its also written by septons from the transcribes of other septons, over thousands of years.

I love this stuff tho. Fake/real history. Like how Tywin sacked and brutalized KL so 20 years later after his son saves the day he rides in and takes all the credit and posthumously gets a statue dedicated to the savior of KL

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Did Andals have paper?

Well if we look at Andalos (no stone ruins of theirs in all of Andalos, not the Axe, not the Velvet Hills, etc), and recognize they only used wood (axed trees), they might have been the ones who invented paper. Trees are the natural required resource to make paper.

The cruel irony - axe truth seeing trees to turn them into paper to write lies on it

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20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@Hugorfonics and @Curled Finger

With regards to the BwB:

Interesting that they are the first within Westeros who basically say "we're done with banners, we're fighting to protect the smallfolk", which is what the High Sparrow almost asked of the two hedge knights, except he wants them to fight for the Faith not the people. (tricksy man)

But they are still very much Andalized. So they still do trial by combat, but believing that Rh'llor is the true god who will aid Beric in killing the guilty or be killed himself (and resurrected again).

Under LS we have a witness and murder victim judging (an undead ghost), which is closer to the truth that trial by combat, but LS cannot truly look into the past and hearts of people. That's why her judgment is too severe.

That's where Bran comes in (of whom Ned said could be a High Septon one day). I believe that after the RW2.0, LS will want to execute Jaime for "his crimes" and that she will do it in the godswood of Riverrun, in front of the slender weirwood where once Robb prayed and beheaded Karstark. But that in that moment Bran himself will intervene, via the weirwood. His judgment will be forgiveness of Jaime. 

That's when we will have an order of true knights in service of a greenseer, who has no need of trial by combat, and that order still consists of knights without banners.

I think the whole anti-magic agenda truly stems from the Andals and the septons foremostly (which is why Septon Barth was pretty much deemed a heretic). The red god Rh'llor is imo not real, but the magic is. So, that faith opened the way for Andal knights and followers of the Faith to be open to magic and how to use it to protect the people. It's the necessary step to eventually abandon Rh'llor and instead "go green" (knight/night).

Are you on fire or what today?  I don't like a lot of Jamie predictions, but I could actually get behind that for a lot of reasons.   Well done, ssr.  I was wondering a bit earlier about trial by combat and trial by Faith.  Justice is an interesting thing.  Seems there isn't much of a tribunal system in the north so much as an understanding of cause and effect.  I'm thinking desertion from the Watch and I imagine any lord would have had to execute him wouldn't he have?  That would have been widely understood and observed by all in the North?  Beric's small trials almost seem evocative of a larger thing, more symbolic than actual if that makes sense, where we see Tyrion get a big, well a couple of big elaborate well attended trials.  Cersei, a queen in all but well no, a queen, has no real trial but the charges, incarceration and punishment of a man, no trial at all.  Where is justice in this?  Cersei is given no opportunity for salvation from any corner, ability to beat Dondarion is all that can save any one from Dondarion and Tyrion gets the legal opportunity of saviors, at least in theory.  Where things are understood in the north it doesn't appear anything is understood in the southern regions. 

That may have been the first time I have ever seen someone actually type out the words 

32 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's when we will have an order of true knights in service of a greenseer, who has no need of trial by combat, and that order still consists of knights without banners.

and that is exactly what keeps me reading.  I'm looking for those heroes and I know they are all there.  That made my day.  Thankee, Sai.   

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

@Craving Peachesand @sweetsunray, I don't think I've shared it for a long time around here.  But your conversation and that little bit @Aejohn the Conqueroo dropped in with reminded me of something I read in Beyond The Wall, a collection of essays exploring GRRM's work on ASOIAF.  Elio and Linda contributed in this book.  There is a chapter where one of the writers describes a time Martin was heavily involved in Dungeons and Dragons to the point he was doing nothing else.  After reading this I did a bit of looking into D&D to better understand what that's all about.  Turns out there are these character classes involved in this game.  I had to incorporate these character classes into my heroes list as it became obvious these are the characters he wrote into our options for the sword wielders.  

I've never played the game, so pardon my really abstract understanding here, but the basic "fighter class" characters are" Barbarian, Fighter and Paladin.  Curiously, no warrior.  However, a Paladin is a holy knight.   Just thought I would toss that in to the conversational salad for your consideration.  

On this note, there is a Warrior class in D&D, but it's not relevant to most players.

Player characters have their own classes - wizard, fighter, cleric, etc. but the game acknowledges that most of the people milling about in the world who aren't adventurers won't find these classes appropriate. So there are "NPC" classes to cover such characters - Commoner (for standard peasants, shopkeepers, etc.), Warrior (for soldiers, city guards, etc.) and Expert (for lay priests, craftsmen, librarians, etc.) Players don't use them because they're essentially rubbish compared to the PC classes: a Warrior, for instance, has the same stats as a fighter or paladin but none of the special abilities, and so for most players these classes might as well not exist.

So in D&D, while players can't (or at least are not advised to be) Warriors, it is the class name for the most generic brand of combat character.

I don't know if it's survived to the current edition but there used to be a Knight class too, which was a PC class and essentially worked as a more functional version of the (notoriously underpowered) Fighter class.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I searched for the world book quote again about Serwyn

And here we have it! It weren't the maesters of the Citadel who first wrote down the tales of the Age of Heroes, but the SEPTONS of the Andals, because the Andals did have writing (maybe it's the sole thing they ever invented themselves).

I'm willing to bet they adopted it from someone else (the Tall Men, or the Valyrians, who themselves might have picked it up from the Ghiscari).

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Knights may be one of the avatars of the Warrior, who is a generic way of referring to a deity that confers courage and strenght in war and in matters that require... strenght. 

I've deemed the faith of the Seven as mostly a religion aimed at reaching the smallfolk aswell as the high classes. If the Warrior was called 'knight' instead it would adress a very limited swarth of population that is wealthy enough to afford some armor and weapons, and probably a horse, and know some knight to knight 'em. 

There are quite a high quantity of knights in Westeros, but there are much more men-at-arms and smallfolk that are armed and go to war. They all pray to the same aspect of the seven for strenght and courage. 'Warrior' is a well placed name for that deity to me.

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20 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I've deemed the faith of the Seven as mostly a religion aimed at reaching the smallfolk aswell as the high classes. If the Warrior was called 'knight' instead it would adress a very limited swarth of population that is wealthy enough to afford some armor and weapons, and probably a horse, and know some knight to knight 'em. 

But the Old Gods religion served the smallfolk just as well, and far more correctly. Those trees and greenseers don't need gold, or taxes, and aren't a bank.

The Andals made being a "knight" an elite that requires armor. They were the ones who turned it into this corrupted cool thing where "knights" spend their time touring the continent for jousting sport and killing one another in a melee, but they can rape and kill and steal and burn smallfolk without any issue.

With the BwB we see something else entirely: no sport, and anyone who's willing to put their life on the line to protect smallfolk get knighted.

20 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

men-at-arms and smallfolk that are armed and go to war.

Does that not contradict the previous claim: that a large swarth of population is not wealthy enough to afford armor and weapons. Men-at-arms and smallfolk that are armed to go to war do have armor and weapons and horses if need be... it's handed to them by the lords and kings.

Is someone a knight because they wear self bought armor? Or are they knights on who they protect? Is a knighted man or woman less of a knight if someone else gave them armor, horse and sword? Is not that what Jaime did for Brienne?

Edited by sweetsunray
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37 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

On this note, there is a Warrior class in D&D, but it's not relevant to most players.

Player characters have their own classes - wizard, fighter, cleric, etc. but the game acknowledges that most of the people milling about in the world who aren't adventurers won't find these classes appropriate. So there are "NPC" classes to cover such characters - Commoner (for standard peasants, shopkeepers, etc.), Warrior (for soldiers, city guards, etc.) and Expert (for lay priests, craftsmen, librarians, etc.) Players don't use them because they're essentially rubbish compared to the PC classes: a Warrior, for instance, has the same stats as a fighter or paladin but none of the special abilities, and so for most players these classes might as well not exist.

So in D&D, while players can't (or at least are not advised to be) Warriors, it is the class name for the most generic brand of combat character.

I don't know if it's survived to the current edition but there used to be a Knight class too, which was a PC class and essentially worked as a more functional version of the (notoriously underpowered) Fighter class.

I've struggled whether to ask for some modern help with this as I am still 3 or 4 characters short of my 12.  Had a topic a million years ago, but that was then.  Doubt I will open a new topic ever again.  The 3 I listed were from a list of the original 12 basic of basic classes.  I thought a Ranger was a fighter, but no, he seems to be a woodsman, silly me.  I had a blast matching these characters up to ASOIAF heroes...and villains as it turns out years later.  I admit your stats info is way over my experience points, but I believe you as the experienced sounding member of the conversation.  I do appreciate the info, Ser. 

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