The warrior vs knight

[Hugorfonics]

49 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Spanish is my native tongue. 'Caballero' has more than one meaning. It literally means a dude mounted on a horse. In modern times that morphed into a 'gentleman'. Quixote is both a gentleman and a dude riding a horse (caballero). Also insane. 

Interesting! So warrior first chivalrys idea of an honor code later. Kinda like the other languages. (Lol, damn windmills!)

51 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

For me, it's fine that George didn't delve too deep in this topics. I guess he tried to make his output able to reach as wide an audience as possible.

Yea for sure. I'm just interested, especially since yesterday when I started thinking about this stuff lol

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

The difference is just practicality: the faith of the Seven covers everyday life and that's about it.

How does it cover everyday life, or more than sharing your personal hopes, disappointments, anger or fears of your everyday life to a tree?

You say "practicality": do you mean that it gives people a guide of when to cook, what to cook, which direction to pray, when to rise, when to go to sleep, when to clean house?

Perhaps Sam should have prayed to the Seven to practically save and protect him and Gilly north of the Wall?

[three-eyed monkey]

31 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not so much honor, but being protective.

Honor is something that a crone, a mother, a father, etc must aspire just as well.

It's not necessarily about being protective. It matters what you are protecting. Protecting the Mad King while he rapes and murders in a cruel manner is different than protecting the innocent and weak. It is honor, the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, that makes a true knight.

The crone and mother and father do not need to aspire to anything, they are the different aspects of one god according to the Faith, who presumably consider their god to be perfect. So this god has the qualities of justice, mercy, strength, wisdom, etc. This is what all people should aspire to.

 Eh, that sounds like I'm preaching the Seven-Pointed Star or something but I'm not, I'm only talking about the story elements.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It's not necessarily about being protective. It matters what you are protecting. Protecting the Mad King while he rapes and murders in a cruel manner is different than protecting the innocent and weak. It is honor, the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, that makes a true knight.

The crone and mother and father do not need to aspire to anything, they are the different aspects of one god according to the Faith, who presumably consider their god to be perfect. So this god has the qualities of justice, mercy, strength, wisdom, etc. This is what all people should aspire to.

 Eh, that sounds like I'm preaching the Seven-Pointed Star or something but I'm not, I'm only talking about the story elements.

But they pray to the Warrior for protection. So, that's what it's supposed to represent. And when the two hedge knights offer protection, for a tit for that, they declare them false knights. So, seems to me that knights in their eyes are supposed to represent the ideal protective warrior.

[Mourning Star]

Great topic!

One thing I didn't see mentioned which I think is important to the discussion. Any knight can make a knight.

"Any knight can make a knight," said the scarecrow that was Beric Dondarrion, "and every man you see before you has felt a sword upon his shoulder. We are the forgotten fellowship."

"Ser Rolly," said the big man. "Rolly Duckfield. Any knight can make a knight, and Griff made me.

The man Plummer rubbed his nose. "Any knight can make a knight, it is true, though it is more customary to stand a vigil and be anointed by a septon before taking your vows. Were there any witnesses to your dubbing?"

"The lad has the truth of it," said Ser Lyonel Baratheon. "Do it, Ser Duncan. Any knight can make a knight."

Any knight could make a knight. When he was squiring for Ser Arlan, Dunk had heard tales of other men who'd bought their knighthood with a kindness or a threat or a bag of silver coins, but never with a sister's maiden-head. "That's just a tale," he heard himself say. "That can't be true."

There is no requirement for Septons, Septs, or oils, the Andal decorations.

The First Men did have some "writing" in the form of runes. The Valyrians seemed to write in glyphs, as opposed to the standard written language we see from the Andal histories in the series.

 Two queen's men brought forth the Horn of Joramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in the Frostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth.

Sort of a side note, but I also have seen no mention of the Ironborn, who predate the Andals in Westeros. Why I find the quote below interesting may become more apparent after reading the whole post.

Many legends have come down to us through the millennia of the salt kings and reavers who made the Sunset Sea their own, men as wild and cruel and fearless as any who have ever lived. Thus we hear of the likes of Torgon the Terrible, Jorl the Whale, Dagon Drumm the necromancer, Hrothgar of Pyke and his krakensummoning horn, and Ragged Ralf of Old Wyk.
Most infamous of all was Balon Blackskin, who fought with an axe in his left hand and a hammer in his right. No weapon made of man could harm him, it was said; swords glanced off and left no mark, and axes shattered against his skin.
Did such men ever truly walk the earth? It is hard to know since most supposedly lived and died thousands of years before the ironmen learned to write; literacy remains rare in the Iron Islands to this day, and those who have the skill are oft mocked as weaklings or feared as sorcerers. So much of what we know of these demigods of the dawn comes to us from the peoples they plundered and preyed upon, written in the Old Tongue and the runes of the First Men.

This brings me back to your original post, because it is interesting that a mostly oral tradition ends up with a legend of Serwyn (Ser Wyn) of the Mirror Shield, a knight long before there are supposed to be knights.

I would add another possibility to this list.

The Night's King, who well may have been the Knight's King.

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was said to be of the Kingsguard. What King did he guard?

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

The other details we have of the stories told of him are interesting as well.

The way he had rescued her from Ser Ilyn and the Hound, why, it was almost like the songs, like the time Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saved the Princess Daeryssa from the giants, or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys's honor against evil Ser Morgil's slanders.

Who was Princess Daeryssa?

"No doubt. Well, Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?"
"He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye."

And the dragon Urrax?

Both these names sound Valyrian, and yet I see no mention of them elsewhere. Could they be inventions of storytellers? Possibly, but I don't think we should forget that the Valyrians seeming chose not to try and conquer Westeros before Aegon, at least in recorded history.

Beside her, Daario Naharis was sleeping as peacefully as a newborn babe. He had a gift for sleeping, he'd boasted, smiling in that cocksure way of his. In the field, he would sleep in the saddle oft as not, he claimed, so as to be well rested should he come upon a battle. Sun or storm, it made no matter. "A warrior who cannot sleep soon has no strength to fight," he said. He was never vexed by nightmares either. When Dany told him how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was haunted by the ghosts of all the knights he'd killed, Daario only laughed. "If the ones I killed come bother me, I will kill them all again." He has a sellsword's conscience, she realized then. That is to say, none at all.

What about a warrior who sleeps for a thousand years, and returns leading the corpses of the foes he has slain?

He thought back on all the songs he had heard, songs of blind Symeon Star-Eyes and noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool. They had all won victories against foes far more terrible than any he would face. But they were great heroes, brave men of noble birth, except for Florian. And what am I?

Symeon Star Eyes, who had sapphire eyes, and fought with a staff with blades at both ends (a sword without a hilt, which is how sorcery is described). For the people who like odd references and/or rabbit holes, Symeon is the latinized spelling of Simeon, one of the seven children of Jacob and Leah in Genesis, and founder of one of the tribes of Israel. 

And besides the legendary kings and the hundreds of kingdoms from which the Seven Kingdoms were born, stories of such as Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and other heroes have become fodder for septons and singers alike. Did such heroes once exist? It may be so. But when the singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—an institution that was only formed during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror—we can see why it is that few of these tales can ever be trusted. The septons who first wrote them down took what details suited them and added others, and the singers changed them—sometimes beyond all recognition—for the sake of a warm place in some lord's hall. In such a way does some longdead First Man become a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings thousands of years after he lived (if he ever did). The legion of boys and youths made ignorant of the past history of Westeros by these foolish tales cannot be numbered.

I would point out that the Children of the Forest call themselves the Singers.

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

The (K)night's King's fault was that he knew no fear.

Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."
"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

I would suggest that, at least some of, the tales of Knights riding around Westeros long before the Andals came, are stories of the Others, and that they don't seem like the bad guys in all these stories... It also lends an answer to your original question, the knights aren't represented by the Warrior at all, but by the Stranger.

"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."

[three-eyed monkey]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But they pray to the Warrior for protection. So, that's what it's supposed to represent. And when the two hedge knights offer protection, for a tit for that, they declare them false knights. So, seems to me that knights in their eyes are supposed to represent the ideal protective warrior.

They also pray to the warrior for strength and courage.

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She had to shoulder through while the septon called upon the Smith to lend strength to Joffrey's sword and shield, the Warrior to give him courage, the Father to defend him in his need.

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We pray for him. We ask for the Mother's mercy, and for the Warrior to give him strength.

Strength and courage are the aspects of humanity the Warrior best represents in my opinion, as these are essential elements of being a warrior. Strength can be used to protect, but it can also be used to harm.

Quote

"If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with."

"True knights protect the weak."

So the aspect of strength needs to be tempered with the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, which is honor. Honorable characters, like Brienne, pray for strength so that they can protect.

Quote

And for me, thought Brienne, a prayer for me as well. Ask the Crone to raise her lamp and lead me to the Lady Sansa, and the Warrior to give strength to my arm so that I might defend her.

This element is evident when it comes to trial by combat, because that's what you're essentially asking the Seven to do in such a trial. The Warrior to lend strength to the arm of the person who is right, but also the Father to help in the bringing of justice.

Quote

The High Septon shuffled forward in his tall crystal crown, and prayed that the Father Above would help them in this judgment, and that the Warrior would lend his strength to the arm of the man whose cause was just.

So these aspects work in conjunction with each other. If you want the strength to do the right thing you first need the wisdom to know what the right thing is. The quality of knowing and doing the right thing is the definition of honor.

[Aldarion]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like in what language though?

For instance, tmk, in Spanish a knight is a Caballero which means Gentlemen, which sounds more chivalrous then the Germans Rider, which sounds more warrior like

No - your etymology is upside-down.

Caballero means literally "horseman". It originates from Latin caballarius / caballus, which means a pack horse. So "caballero" is literally "cavalryman", and is thus etymologically identical to German Ritter.

Sure, it did gain the meaning "gentleman" due to chivalric ideal, just as Ritter did, but that is not its original meaning.

Slavic "vitez" by comparison actually means "guardian".

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Not according to the themes of this series. What you describe is a knight. There are lots of knights in the series but few of them are true knights. A true knight must have honor. There is a parallel theme dealing with kings. There are lots of kings, and many of them put their rights ahead of their duty, but a true king protects his people or he is no king at all.

Isn't that something that holds literally for everybody? True king, true lord, true knight, true squire... to be "true" you have to have honor, regardless of the title you hold.

[three-eyed monkey]

54 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Isn't that something that holds literally for everybody? True king, true lord, true knight, true squire... to be "true" you have to have honor, regardless of the title you hold.

Absolutely. And that's my point. A true knight is not just a mounted warrior who sells his services for land. That's a knight. A true knight must have honor. It's not about titles because titles are words and words are wind.

[sweetsunray]

15 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Strength and courage are the aspects of humanity the Warrior best represents in my opinion, as these are essential elements of being a warrior. Strength can be used to protect, but it can also be used to harm.

But then you ignore explicitly Brienne's explanation that the poor fellows are singing a prayer to the Warrior for protection. Or how about Sam's song of the 7 that he sings to Gilly

 

Quote

 

The Warrior stands before the foe,

protecting us where e'er we go. (aSoS, Samwell III)

 

I don't deny they also pray for courage and strength from the warrior, but you're here arguing to ignore praying for protection, in a scene that explicitly ends with people not calling the two hedge knights false warriors but false knights because they are only willing to protect the poor fellows for coin.

Of course, if you argue that the warrior is not the correct representative aspect to pray for protection, then you are basically making my point - knighthood was never really an Andal thing, but appropriated and then lied about as having invented it, excatly as they do with the Smith.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Absolutely. And that's my point. A true knight is not just a mounted warrior who sells his services for land. That's a knight. A true knight must have honor. It's not about titles because titles are words and words are wind.

Where did I propose this was just about "titles"? It's not so much about titles, as it is about the origin of a concept.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

No - your etymology is upside-down.

Caballero means literally "horseman". It originates from Latin caballarius / caballus, which means a pack horse. So "caballero" is literally "cavalryman", and is thus etymologically identical to German Ritter.

Sure, it did gain the meaning "gentleman" due to chivalric ideal, just as Ritter did, but that is not its original meaning.

Word. Cool. Thanks

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Slavic "vitez" by comparison actually means "guardian

Interesting! So knights "honor" first, and prowess second. That's a rarity 

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Isn't that something that holds literally for everybody? True king, true lord, true knight, true squire... to be "true" you have to have honor, regardless of the title you hold.

For the life of me I can't understand the concept of a "true knight". It's totally antagonistic to asoiaf.

 

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

knighthood was never really an Andal thing,

Yoooo! I think got it! What's the oldest order of knights in asoiaf? The knights watch.

[Jon Fossoway]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

How does it cover everyday life, or more than sharing your personal hopes, disappointments, anger or fears of your everyday life to a tree?

You say "practicality": do you mean that it gives people a guide of when to cook, what to cook, which direction to pray, when to rise, when to go to sleep, when to clean house?

Perhaps Sam should have prayed to the Seven to practically save and protect him and Gilly north of the Wall?

 

I don't get these answers of yours, to be honest. I'll leave it to rest.

[Hugorfonics]

Serwyn of the nights watch maybe? (Although I still think (maybe more because of @Mourning Star great post and quotes) he's mostly a Valyrian myth, taken by the Andals along with maybe some heroic Crow. 

 

Maesters lie. History should not be trusted. But whay of the myths that septons wrote? Lol.

So speaking of why believe anything, the NW has forgotten a lot. And like the cynic I am, I don't think any knight can be truly honorable, I have a hard time believing the prison at the edge of the earth was ever an honorable position. So, what's good with this room? And how should we interpret it?

Quote

The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries. Back when the Night's Watch had been much larger, its walls had been hung with rows of brightly colored wooden shields. Then as now, when a knight took the black, tradition decreed that he set aside his former arms and take up the plain black shield of the brotherhood. The shields thus discarded would hang in the Shieldhall.

Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of.

But when a knight died, his shield was taken down, that it might go with him to his pyre or his tomb, and over the years and centuries fewer and fewer knights had taken the black. A day came when it no longer made sense for the knights of Castle Black to dine apart. The Shieldhall was abandoned. In the last hundred years, it had been used only infrequently. As a dining hall, it left much to be desired—it was dark, dirty, drafty, and hard to heat in winter, its cellars infested with rats, its massive wooden rafters worm-eaten and festooned with cobwebs

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 3/14/2023 at 4:34 PM, Curled Finger said:

@Craving Peachesand @sweetsunray, I don't think I've shared it for a long time around here.  But your conversation and that little bit @Aejohn the Conqueroo dropped in with reminded me of something I read in Beyond The Wall, a collection of essays exploring GRRM's work on ASOIAF.  Elio and Linda contributed in this book.  There is a chapter where one of the writers describes a time Martin was heavily involved in Dungeons and Dragons to the point he was doing nothing else.  After reading this I did a bit of looking into D&D to better understand what that's all about.  Turns out there are these character classes involved in this game.  I had to incorporate these character classes into my heroes list as it became obvious these are the characters he wrote into our options for the sword wielders.  

I've never played the game, so pardon my really abstract understanding here, but the basic "fighter class" characters are" Barbarian, Fighter and Paladin.  Curiously, no warrior.  However, a Paladin is a holy knight.   Just thought I would toss that in to the conversational salad for your consideration.  

In the old days classes were very restrictive. A wizard could never use a sword for example. There was a hybrid fighter class called the Ranger - D&D was largely inspired by Tolkien and there was no way they were going to make a game system that wouldn't allow for someone to play a Strider like character. The game's relaxed over the years but back when I was a regular player I was involved in some pretty strong arguments about rules and house rules and what kind of modifications to class rules would be allowed in the name of role playing and character development. Anyway the rules were restrictive and the fights were real. People care about their characters. 

Anyway I can't imagine Martin not having had many of the same fights and discussions and I can't help but wonder if he sometimes isn't putting his final word in on one of those arguments when he does something like show Arya learn to hide in shadows, pick pockets, backstab and develop the skills of the assassin class, or have a powerful wizard character like Bloodraven wield a sword like Dark Sister which would have started a fight at some tables back in the early 80s had someone tried it in a game. If we applied a character class to Jamie Lannister he would be a Paladin, well his dungeon master would have demanded some pretty heavy penalties and restitution when he was banging his sister and tossing kids out of tower windows.  Maybe it would have even cost him a hand.

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

But then you ignore explicitly Brienne's explanation that the poor fellows are singing a prayer to the Warrior for protection. Or how about Sam's song of the 7 that he sings to Gilly

No, I'm agreeing that strength can be used to protect, but it can also be used to harm. Not every strong warrior uses that strength to protect.

Of course you can pray to the Warrior for protection, especially in battle. Cat prayed to the Warrior to protect Robb in battle. But you can pray to the Smith to give strength to your sword and shield so that they may protect you too. Or you can pray to the Father for protection, but we see this in a trial so if you're innocent then the type of protection you want is Justice, which is why you would pray to the father.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't deny they also pray for courage and strength from the warrior, but you're here arguing to ignore praying for protection, in a scene that explicitly ends with people not calling the two hedge knights false warriors but false knights because they are only willing to protect the poor fellows for coin.

I'm not saying ignore praying for protection, I'm just saying that it's not exclusively protection that they pray to the Warrior for, nor is it exclusively the Warrior they pray to for protection.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Where did I propose this was just about "titles"? It's not so much about titles, as it is about the origin of a concept.

I was replying to someone else here, I didn't say you proposed that.

I think you make interesting points about the origin of the concept. My only point here is that people with honor were around long before the Andals came.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course, if you argue that the warrior is not the correct representative aspect to pray for protection, then you are basically making my point - knighthood was never really an Andal thing, but appropriated and then lied about as having invented it, excatly as they do with the Smith.

Well I would say that the concept of Honor is not an Andal thing, nor is the concept of a warrior. Calling honorable warriors "knights" might be an Andal thing, but they did not invent the honorable warrior.

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For the life of me I can't understand the concept of a "true knight". It's totally antagonistic to asoiaf.

How so?

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

How so?

Jaime's quote alarms quite loudly. Betraying one oath for another. Swearing to die for your victim is not honorable, despite being the only rational move. 

So drop that clause and go anarchy style, like Berics? Until they get corrupted by human emotion and serve the Stoneheart. Now even Brienne may too (at the very least she's a true maiden) if she stops working for the Kingslayer that is.

Many a good knights serve tyrants, like Ser Davos. Many a other knights think their doing good like Ser Jorah or Ser JonC, but are in fact dancing to the Spiders tune.

Whatever the Faiths intention, they choose correctly in summarizing true knights, hedge knights, sellswords, ironborn. wildlings dothraki gladiators and Moonboy for all I know as a Warrior. A sword with a minimal conscience, like a nights watch man, or a wight.

 

But it's really just Sansa was always going on about them until she met the finest knights in the world who beat her bloody like clock work. So I'm pretty sure she's over that idea, and consequently so am I.

[Curled Finger]

28 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

In the old days classes were very restrictive. A wizard could never use a sword for example. There was a hybrid fighter class called the Ranger - D&D was largely inspired by Tolkien and there was no way they were going to make a game system that wouldn't allow for someone to play a Strider like character. The game's relaxed over the years but back when I was a regular player I was involved in some pretty strong arguments about rules and house rules and what kind of modifications to class rules would be allowed in the name of role playing and character development. Anyway the rules were restrictive and the fights were real. People care about their characters. 

Anyway I can't imagine Martin not having had many of the same fights and discussions and I can't help but wonder if he sometimes isn't putting his final word in on one of those arguments when he does something like show Arya learn to hide in shadows, pick pockets, backstab and develop the skills of the assassin class, or have a powerful wizard character like Bloodraven wield a sword like Dark Sister which would have started a fight at some tables back in the early 80s had someone tried it in a game. If we applied a character class to Jamie Lannister he would be a Paladin, well his dungeon master would have demanded some pretty heavy penalties and restitution when he was banging his sister and tossing kids out of tower windows.  Maybe it would have even cost him a hand.

Ah Brilliant!  I classified Brienne as the Paladin and Arya and the Rogue.  Going to have to pull notes out to see where Jamie fell as he was difficult for me to classify given my very bare bones understanding here.  I sure appreciate the greater detail.    

[Curled Finger]

44 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So speaking of why believe anything, the NW has forgotten a lot. And like the cynic I am, I don't think any knight can be truly honorable, I have a hard time believing the prison at the edge of the earth was ever an honorable position. So, what's good with this room? And how should we interpret it?

 

What is Brienne if not a truly honorable knight?  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I classified Brienne as the Paladin and Arya and the Rogue.

Definitely Brienne would fit the Paladin. 

Assassin was a subset of rogue that was introduced in an expansion book (iirc) and was quite controversial in its day (new classes always tended to come out a bit over powered). Arya could really fit either. If I recall when the class was first introduced a character needed a few levels of rogue before they could have switched to assassin which could possibly be mirrored by her entering the more formal training of the Faceless Men after JH recognized her potential.