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The warrior vs knight


sweetsunray
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17 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Definitely Brienne would fit the Paladin. 

Assassin was a subset of rogue that was introduced in an expansion book (iirc) and was quite controversial in its day (new classes always tended to come out a bit over powered). Arya could really fit either. If I recall when the class was first introduced a character needed a few levels of rogue before they could have switched to assassin which could possibly be mirrored by her entering the more formal training of the Faceless Men after JH recognized her potential.

The character classes I had were:

Barbarian     Bard     Cleric     Druid     Fighter     Monk     Paladin     Ranger     Rogue     Sorcerer    Warlock     Wizard

Looking at them, Jamie was my fighter.  As I say, they were the most basic of the character classes I believe.  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

What is Brienne if not a truly honorable knight?  

I just came out of a long discussion about that. 

Basically my stance and takeaway was she seems like a nice chap but she's in way over her head and is juggling things no human can keep handle. (I also think she's compromised with her allegiances to Stoneheart and kingslayer but they're not that bad really so maybe they can all be friends)

The most striking image is her putting more armor on Renly when he died. Should she have put on even more armor? Now what's she gonna do to keep the skinchangers safe?(kill the faceless men? Outmaneuver Littlefinger? And im pretty sure these girls are where they want to be and are not tryna get kidnapped, again)

Now no doubt she could die for them, like Ser Arys. So perhaps that's what an honorable knight is, a corpse.

 

Also what's honor? A horse? For example the Ironborn think it's honorable to take somebody's lunch money. It's not just that it's a description of a code impossible to live by or achieve anything great but it's also one that means differently to different people in different situations 

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Serwyn of the nights watch maybe? (Although I still think (maybe more because of @Mourning Star great post and quotes) he's mostly a Valyrian myth, taken by the Andals along with maybe some heroic Crow. 

Thanks!

One more point I would add to the last quote from Sandor about "true knights". His horse is named Stranger.

If Serwyn was an ancient "knight" and this is taken to mean an Other, then might the Night's Watch also be known as the Knight's Watch? As in watching for the return of the Knights (The Others, Night's Knights?).

The Kingsguard were formed by Visenya, who it is said modeled them after the vows of the Night's Watch. It should also be noted, I think, how similar the Maester's vows are as well.

"There are many such orders. The maesters of the Citadel, the septons and septas who serve the Seven, the silent sisters of the dead, the Kingsguard and the Night's Watch . . ."

Especially since they were seemingly formed around the time of Brandon the Builder.

And while I'm speculating wildly about names, could Serwyn be Ser Win, and could this be a reference to the Battle of the Dawn? Or could it be short for Ser Winter?

I'm still intrigued and confused as to how Joramun fits into the history as well.

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9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I just came out of a long discussion about that. 

Basically my stance and takeaway was she seems like a nice chap but she's in way over her head and is juggling things no human can keep handle. (I also think she's compromised with her allegiances to Stoneheart and kingslayer but they're not that bad really so maybe they can all be friends)

The most striking image is her putting more armor on Renly when he died. Should she have put on even more armor? Now what's she gonna do to keep the skinchangers safe?(kill the faceless men? Outmaneuver Littlefinger? And im pretty sure these girls are where they want to be and are not tryna get kidnapped, again)

Now no doubt she could die for them, like Ser Arys. So perhaps that's what an honorable knight is, a corpse.

 

Also what's honor? A horse? For example the Ironborn think it's honorable to take somebody's lunch money. It's not just that it's a description of a code impossible to live by or achieve anything great but it's also one that means differently to different people in different situations 

I was wowed by The Once and Future King and got a bit geeky over the history of the tale of King Arthur and his knights.  This does seem to be where the whole mass marketing of chivalry began, with Le Morte d'Arthur in the 1500s.  The idealized romantic version of the perfect man.  Different countries lent their bents to it as the tale spread and became popularized all over Europe.  No kidding.  You get bits and bobs from all different cultures as to what a man should be in all the stories.  As with sweetsunray's premise, the warrior is present long prior to the advent of this perfected version.  You get a little of this in Brienne's tall telling with Dick Crabbe.  Whose legendary knight is more badass I ask you?  

Romantic idealized version always stands out in my head when I consider knights.  Yes, even Brienne, because if anyone has that version it is she.  Jamie had that version once, just as Bran did and maybe The Hound did, too.  Life will beat Brienne down to where she understands nothing can exist idealized.  She knows knights kill and she knows knights can be crippled and maimed, perhaps she will learn about vows very soon, too.  Though you would think she had already in not being permitted to be a knight.  

You make very good points about what this awkward if brave young woman really can do to protect magical girls.  Maybe brute strength and loyalty is all they will need.  

I thought Glory was a horse? 

 

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6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Interesting! So knights "honor" first, and prowess second. That's a rarity 

Not necessarily. "Guardian" just means "defender", as in "one who defends". So it is just a description of duty, not necessarily of honor (other than defending one's home being honorable in and by itself, but that has little to do with knightly concept of personal honor).

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jaime's quote alarms quite loudly. Betraying one oath for another. Swearing to die for your victim is not honorable, despite being the only rational move. 

This is a dilemma, one characters like Jaime must resolve if they are to resolve their arcs. There is a solution to the dilemma, but what you call the only rational move is not that solution.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Many a good knights serve tyrants, like Ser Davos. Many a other knights think their doing good like Ser Jorah or Ser JonC, but are in fact dancing to the Spiders tune.

Yes, and the solution to good men being sworn to bad causes is to change to a good cause. Davos is a red onion now, and red onions turn blue eventually, but he'll be a green onion in the end because green onions are spring onions. Themes and character arcs progress with the story as the characters develop.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But it's really just Sansa was always going on about them until she met the finest knights in the world who beat her bloody like clock work. So I'm pretty sure she's over that idea, and consequently so am I.

But that's the point. Just because they wear the white cloak does not mean they are the finest knights in the realm. In fact we've seen plenty of evidence that they are not, as you point out.

Sansa gets her idea of a true knight, i.e. a knight who is chivalrous and uses his strength to protect the weak and innocent, from the songs of old. So it's not just Sansa's idea. It's a philosophical position in Westeros, though not one that is popular in the current climate, although there are characters like Barristan and Brienne who essentially hold the same position.

However, Sansa learns that the world is not like that. The people in power hold a different position. Characters like Cersei and Sandor don't believe in true knights and think the naive idea belongs only in the songs. They believe that strength is best used to dominate the weak. This is the philosophy that currently prevails in Westeros but the realm always bleeds as a result.

So the theme of the true knight is not antagonistic to ASoIaF. It is one side of a philosophical conflict that is at the very core of the story. It's a philosophy that is opposed by the position held by people like Cersei, which is the dominant position as the story opens, but it's a philosophy that must overcome that dominance if the realm is to stop bleeding and heal.

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2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Thanks!

Thank you

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

One more point I would add to the last quote from Sandor about "true knights". His horse is named Stranger.

Like he won't pray to the Warrior but looks to the Stranger for support? Or what?

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

If Serwyn was an ancient "knight" and this is taken to mean an Other, then might the Night's Watch also be known as the Knight's Watch? As in watching for the return of the Knights (The Others, Night's Knights?).

Serwyn is just so Valerian! Lol

Yea I'm speculating too about the shieldhall and what the deal with that is. A cornerstone point of the NW is you leave your old life behind, so why flaunt your house?

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The Kingsguard were formed by Visenya, who it is said modeled them after the vows of the Night's Watch. It should also be noted, I think, how similar the Maester's vows are as well.

"There are many such orders. The maesters of the Citadel, the septons and septas who serve the Seven, the silent sisters of the dead, the Kingsguard and the Night's Watch . . ."

Especially since they were seemingly formed around the time of Brandon the Builder.

They're also kinda similar to bloodriders, so it's not like it's solely a Westeros tradition. And just like I think the majority of Serwyn are stories, I think the same of the Builder

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And while I'm speculating wildly about names, could Serwyn be Ser Win, and could this be a reference to the Battle of the Dawn? Or could it be short for Ser Winter?

I'm still intrigued and confused as to how Joramun fits into the history as well.

Yea the OP was referencing that too, although this is the first I hear I think of Ser Wynter. Which is awesome. Reminds me of like 17 and 18th cent documents about pirates. Or as they called them, pyrates.

Yea I got no idea, although tbh I don't think Joramun was real either lol

 

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also what's honor? A horse? For example the Ironborn think it's honorable to take somebody's lunch money. It's not just that it's a description of a code impossible to live by or achieve anything great but it's also one that means differently to different people in different situations 

Honor has a definition. It doesn't really matter if the Ironborn think it's something else. Honor is defined as the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, and I don't think it's impossible to live by that code. It's certainly something to aspire towards, surely.

Edit. And yes, a horse symbolizes honor in the books.

Edited by three-eyed monkey
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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I was wowed by The Once and Future King and got a bit geeky over the history of the tale of King Arthur and his knights.

Me too! lol. I think my order of fantasy was lotr, once and future king, discworld and then years later finally asoiaf. Maybe its been like 10, 15 years, but I loved The Once and Future King so much. Totally geeked.
(Galahad and Polliver (no thats an asoiaf guy...) three knights find the grail. His boy from Wart days, Galahad, and pullsomething?
These guys were unbelivabaly bland and too micky mouse like for my taste, even as a teenager. But Galahads dad? The whole story of Galahads inception when momma pretended to be Gwenaviere and then finally for the first time, but damn sure not the last, betrayed his king. 
I thought the story of Mordred and his mom/aunt or stepmom/wife was too weird but I loved the dynamics with his brothers. But really, the story of Lancelot, the greatest knight (ignoring the other 3) is just so deep and imo crushes the general ideas of honor, loyalty and love.
(also shout out to The Sword in the Stone! Back when Disney hand drew everything)

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This does seem to be where the whole mass marketing of chivalry began, with Le Morte d'Arthur in the 1500s.  The idealized romantic version of the perfect man. 

So thatd be a French outlook on a Welsh story about a Roman? Positively Andal.
But nah, this perfect man can be seen in like Hercules or whomever. Loads of heroes from the classical world, some real like Greek Leonitus or Roman Cincinnatus.
Romans loved honor. A lot, like, get a room.

Ok, so whats chivalry? Tmk its just roman style honor (dont beat your wife in public, dont kill the slaves of your inlaws, you know honorable for Romans) but slightly less killing. Instead of forcing the patricians to commit suicide (super honorable thing to do) you ransom the lord for like half the wealth of the realm. But plebs and serfs have no stain on honor or the chivalrous code. Maybe your soul, but you can worry about that later lol

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  Different countries lent their bents to it as the tale spread and became popularized all over Europe.  No kidding.  You get bits and bobs from all different cultures as to what a man should be in all the stories.  As with sweetsunray's premise, the warrior is present long prior to the advent of this perfected version.  You get a little of this in Brienne's tall telling with Dick Crabbe.  Whose legendary knight is more badass I ask you?  

Lol exactly. 
But times change I mean, Dicks still cool. But like Bran was telling the honorable story of the rat king. And thats a terrible story lol

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Romantic idealized version always stands out in my head when I consider knights.  Yes, even Brienne, because if anyone has that version it is she.  Jamie had that version once, just as Bran did and maybe The Hound did, too.  Life will beat Brienne down to where she understands nothing can exist idealized.  She knows knights kill and she knows knights can be crippled and maimed, perhaps she will learn about vows very soon, too.  Though you would think she had already in not being permitted to be a knight.  

Yea, Romanticized. Thats her. Saphire Island. 
(For sure, Jaime started as this bright opportunist kid and is now anything but. 
Hes a weird chap. I know hes as cynical as I am, so he knows its all dumb. KG? Its his son! 
But he walks the path. He tells Tywin its because hes tired of highborn women kicking shit on him, but thats just dramatic. I think Jaime himself is at a crossroads, not knowing what action to take but for the first time in his life is responsible for himself, and as LC is now finally in a position of leadership. More like the Father then the Warrior.)
Briennie in acok was also this bright and opportunist kid. And no matter whats been thrown her way (dead Renly, maimed Jaime, consistently failed every mission) shes still kinda got that spunk to her. But, yea, maybe it will be the vows to a zombie or whatever that finally wakens her up to realism. 

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You make very good points about what this awkward if brave young woman really can do to protect magical girls.  Maybe brute strength and loyalty is all they will need.  

Loyalty, check. Brute strength, what can it do? Go toe to toe with the kingslayer in chains while trying not to kill him? Impressive. Sufficient? The Brave Companions thought it hysterical.
I mean, you know Im rooting for her.

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I thought Glory was a horse? 

That it is!

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1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Not necessarily. "Guardian" just means "defender", as in "one who defends". So it is just a description of duty, not necessarily of honor (other than defending one's home being honorable in and by itself, but that has little to do with knightly concept of personal honor).

More so the just a dude on a horse though. And its kinda its own social class too. Or at least occupation or whatever

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51 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Honor has a definition. It doesn't really matter if the Ironborn think it's something else. Honor is defined as the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, and I don't think it's impossible to live by that code. It's certainly something to aspire towards, surely.

Edit. And yes, a horse symbolizes honor in the books.

And glory as well?
Thats not the definition of honor. Your thinking of morality maybe.

Quote
hon·or
[ˈänər]
 
NOUN
  1. high respect; great esteem:
    "his portrait hangs in the place of honor"
  2. adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct:
    "I must as a matter of honor avoid any taint of dishonesty"
  3. something regarded as a rare opportunity and bringing pride and pleasure; a privilege:
    "the great poet of whom it is my honor to speak tonight"
 
VERB
  1. regard with great respect:
    "they honore their parents in all they did"
    SIMILAR:
    hold in great respect
    hold in high esteem
    have a high regard for
  2. fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement):
    "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract"

adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct: sounds nice, but it also sounds like some ironborn will take your lunch money

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

This is a dilemma, one characters like Jaime must resolve if they are to resolve their arcs. There is a solution to the dilemma, but what you call the only rational move is not that solution.

Arrest the king and let Ned kill him? He woulda loved that

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But that's the point. Just because they wear the white cloak does not mean they are the finest knights in the realm. In fact we've seen plenty of evidence that they are not, as you point out.

Sansa gets her idea of a true knight, i.e. a knight who is chivalrous and uses his strength to protect the weak and innocent, from the songs of old. So it's not just Sansa's idea. It's a philosophical position in Westeros, though not one that is popular in the current climate, although there are characters like Barristan and Brienne who essentially hold the same position.

However, Sansa learns that the world is not like that. The people in power hold a different position. Characters like Cersei and Sandor don't believe in true knights and think the naive idea belongs only in the songs. They believe that strength is best used to dominate the weak. This is the philosophy that currently prevails in Westeros but the realm always bleeds as a result.

So the theme of the true knight is not antagonistic to ASoIaF. It is one side of a philosophical conflict that is at the very core of the story. It's a philosophy that is opposed by the position held by people like Cersei, which is the dominant position as the story opens, but it's a philosophy that must overcome that dominance if the realm is to stop bleeding and heal.


Every knight we meet is false. The ones who ascribe to our idea of a Galahad are Dunk and Brienne, neither knights. I dont think we should bank the entire world of Westeros as good stuff because of two good apples who lived a hundred years apart (ones whos completed stories are mysterious to us btw)
Sansa will move forward. I very much doubt she'll commit to going full on Eddard but is more likely to walk the thin line between Cersei and Littlefinger. (like Sansas right now chilling with the knight of mad mouses, hes trying to kidnap her. Knights and Sansa just dont get along.
Like we explored in this thread, Westeros is under a facade. The bright patrenty of southron living is coming to a close, winter is coming and shits about to get real. I dont see Sir Galahad stepping in to kiss any wounds

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You make very good points about what this awkward if brave young woman really can do to protect magical girls. 

To be able to see truth, even if people are disguised by mummery or magic, and are lying (for good and bad): Syrio's advice to Arya.

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50 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

To be able to see truth, even if people are disguised by mummery or magic, and are lying (for good and bad): Syrio's advice to Arya.

If I'm being honest, one of my favorite parts of this lesson is that Syrio uses identifying the gender of a cat as his example, while having just repeatedly called Arya a boy! Make of it what you will, I certainly do!

Edited by Mourning Star
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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like he won't pray to the Warrior but looks to the Stranger for support? Or what?

I was trying to reinforce the idea that a knight is represented by the Stranger and not the Warrior. Maybe a stretch and counter intuitive, but the Warrior represents protecting or shielding, while the Stranger represent killing and death.

Any knight can make a knight.

Violence begets more violence, killing begets more killing. 

The aim of a warrior should be to shield the weak, protect the children, so they don't have to grow up and choose to wield a sword themselves.

The Warrior stands before the foe,
protecting us where e'er we go.
With sword and shield and spear and bow,
he guards the little children.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Serwyn is just so Valerian! Lol

I actually wholeheartedly agree, and believe there is reason to believe the ancestors of the Starks (and Daynes, and maybe Hightowers) were not First Men from Westeros, but part of the same peoples who founded Valyria. I would point to the metal working, language, seafaring, round stone towers, and the gargoyles on the oldest structure in Winterfell.

Edited by Mourning Star
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31 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

If I'm being honest, one of my favorite parts of this lesson is that Syrio uses identifying the gender of a cat as his example, while having just repeatedly called Arya a boy! Make of it what you will, I certainly do!

Maybe he was doing so to gage her response to it ;)

But most likely, as a teacher, it's just his customary address to any pupil. I've been known to say "Hey, boys!" to an all girl class. It's not because I made the mistake of thinking they're men.

Edited by sweetsunray
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15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I actually wholeheartedly agree, and believe there is reason to believe the ancestors of the Starks (and Daynes, and maybe Hightowers) were not First Men from Westeros, but part of the same peoples who founded Valyria. I would point to the metal working, language, seafaring, round stone towers, and the gargoyles on the oldest structure in Winterfell.

Brandon the Builder imo was the son of a Dayne daughter, and the Daynes were proto-Valyrian dragonblood.

So, Serwyn isn't Valyrian as much as he is proto-Valyrian imo too.

Edited by sweetsunray
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