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The warrior vs knight


sweetsunray
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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In contrast, we have the Faith of the Seven who anoint men (for money and to please a lord) and call them knights before they ever proved their heroism, and churning out so many of these that the honorific has become meaningless, because most are not heroes at all, but just licensed killers. Septons appropriated the exclusive right to license killers without them ever proving they are heroes or not. On top of that they created a justice system that relies on these non-heroic killers.

I don't think the story is going to end up being 'FotS and all Andal stuff bad and a rip-off'. The Faith is no worse than any of the other religions we see in the story. The Andals are no worse than any other people we see in the story (aside from the Naathi). I think it would be poor writing to have this one group/faith be evil missapropriaters the whole time.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think the story is going to end up being 'FotS and all Andal stuff bad and a rip-off'. The Faith is no worse than any of the other religions we see in the story. The Andals are no worse than any other people we see in the story (aside from the Naathi). I think it would be poor writing to have this one group/faith be evil missapropriaters the whole time.

But the invading Andals were bad guys, who genocided other people in the Vale.

Via Tyrion's travels through prior Andalos early on in aDwD we get the first real hints that what the septons teach people in Westeros about the Andals as a civilisation is not correct:

  • iron working
  • and even sacrifice of 7 swan maidens

And this goes hand in hand with the aFfC and aDwD hints that the maesters have an agenda that matches with that of the Faith.

You have Winterfell itself nearly being converted to the Faith with Edd building a sept for his wife there and thinking his greenseer son could be high septon one day. We have a castle at the Wall where the LC resides that is half as old as the Wall without a weirwood, but a sept, and a drunk septon who tries to paint an LC and recruits as evil because they want to say their vows to a weirwood.

We have Vic sacrificing 7 maidens in a boat put on fire and drowning them: drowned god, fire sacrifice and the 7 => all bad.

We thematically have it pointed out that septons are corrupt and/or mysognistic and/or fanatical who decide who's to be a knight and that these are killers and not heroes.

We have the thematic pointing out that these trials by combat do not provide justice whatsoever and are an awful justice system.

Yes, I think the story is going for "FotS and Andal stuff bad and  rip-off". That doesn't mean all believers or followers of the Faith are bad people. Some are even heroic and very good people and characters. Some are like maester Luwin who believes he was helping Bran when he drugged him in the hope to stop his wolf dreams (which didn't work but only guilt tripped Bran and made him more dangerous) or when he strategized to leave WF defenseless - good but very much misguided. And some are like Kevan Lannister, trying to make the best out of what he knows to be wrong, hoping to mitigate the worst by believing he can prevent his niece from acquiring power again.

Do you think it's coincidence that the one man we see committing cannibalism for revenge's sake is the sole lord of the North who's of the Faith? You do realize that the rat cook story involves an Andal king? You do know that the LC's who attempted to make their position hereditary were Andals?

George is not "both siding" it.

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40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But the invading Andals were bad guys, who genocided other people in the Vale.

Via Tyrion's travels through prior Andalos early on in aDwD we get the first real hints that what the septons teach people in Westeros about the Andals as a civilisation is not correct:

  • iron working
  • and even sacrifice of 7 swan maidens

And this goes hand in hand with the aFfC and aDwD hints that the maesters have an agenda that matches with that of the Faith.

You have Winterfell itself nearly being converted to the Faith with Edd building a sept for his wife there and thinking his greenseer son could be high septon one day. We have a castle at the Wall where the LC resides that is half as old as the Wall without a weirwood, but a sept, and a drunk septon who tries to paint an LC and recruits as evil because they want to say their vows to a weirwood.

We have Vic sacrificing 7 maidens in a boat put on fire and drowning them: drowned god, fire sacrifice and the 7 => all bad.

We thematically have it pointed out that septons are corrupt and/or mysognistic and/or fanatical who decide who's to be a knight and that these are killers and not heroes.

We have the thematic pointing out that these trials by combat do not provide justice whatsoever and are an awful justice system.

Yes, I think the story is going for "FotS and Andal stuff bad and  rip-off". That doesn't mean all believers or followers of the Faith are bad people. Some are even heroic and very good people and characters. Some are like maester Luwin who believes he was helping Bran when he drugged him in the hope to stop his wolf dreams (which didn't work but only guilt tripped Bran and made him more dangerous) or when he strategized to leave WF defenseless - good but very much misguided. And some are like Kevan Lannister, trying to make the best out of what he knows to be wrong, hoping to mitigate the worst by believing he can prevent his niece from acquiring power again.

Do you think it's coincidence that the one man we see committing cannibalism for revenge's sake is the sole lord of the North who's of the Faith? You do realize that the rat cook story involves an Andal king? You do know that the LC's who attempted to make their position hereditary were Andals?

George is not "both siding" it.

I view the Andals as being like one of the Western European peoples that invaded the British Isles, over the course of 2,000 years.  I don't see the Danes or Normans as being any better or worse, in general, than the Anglo-Saxons or Britons.

The Andals carried out massacres in some places, peacefully co-existed in others, as the First Men had done before them.

Nor do I see the Faith of the Seven as being better or worse than any other religion.  It is one of the few, at least, that does not currently practice human sacrifice.

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49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But the invading Andals were bad guys, who genocided other people in the Vale.

And the First Men killed all the CotF until they signed a peace treaty. The Andals were only doing what the First Men did before them, there was eventually peace through intermarriage and stuff. I really doubt we are supposed to single out one entire group of people as 'the bad guys', but if we were I would certainly think it would be the Valyrians, who seem magnitudes worse than the Andals to me.

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You have Winterfell itself nearly being converted to the Faith with Edd building a sept for his wife there and thinking his greenseer son could be high septon one day.

What's wrong with him trying to make his wife feel more comfortable? It's not like Chayle is trying to convert people. Saying Winterfell was 'nearly converted' is quite the exaggeration. I take Ned allowing a sept for his wife as something that shows how kind he is, not evidence of some mission to convert the 'Northern Heathens'. As for Bran, he was trying to think of how Bran could still be in a position of influence without being a knight, he was trying to encourage his son, was he not? And Ned did not know Bran was a Greenseer.

Alternatively these are just weird first book things because the world wasn't fully fleshed-out yet.

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And this goes hand in hand with the aFfC and aDwD hints that the maesters have an agenda that matches with that of the Faith.

I really doubt the Faith has an agenda, or that anyone outside of maybe an elite circle of maesters has an agenda. These are huge diverse groups of people with different goals. Also the only sources of these hints are Barbrey and Marwyn, Barbrey is clearly biased and what Marwyn is saying doesn't even line up with how he is treated - if the Archmaesters don't trust him so much, why is he allowed to go running off unsupervised in Essos multiple times? Why is he even allowed to be an Archmaester and teach his subject? I mean no offence, but this idea that the FotS has some agenda they are pursuing reminds me of all the weird conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church...

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

but a sept, and a drunk septon who tries to paint an LC and recruits as evil because they want to say their vows to a weirwood

Yes, a drunk Septon says this. A drunken one. I think it is a huge leap to extrapolate this as evidence of some conspiracy.

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Do you think it's coincidence that the one man we see committing cannibalism for revenge's sake is the sole lord of the North who's of the Faith? You do realize that the rat cook story involves an Andal king?

The Andal King in that story was the victim not the perpetrator.

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You do know that the LC's who attempted to make their position hereditary were Andals?

And a LC who was First Men tried to make himself King Beyond the Wall, so what?

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

George is not "both siding" it.

With all due respect, this is your opinion, not a fact.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I view the Andals as being like one of the Western European peoples that invaded the British Isles, over the course of 2,000 years.  I don't see the Danes or Normans as being any better or worse, in general, than the Anglo-Saxons or Britons.

The Andals carried out massacres in some places, peacefully co-existed in others, as the First Men had done before them.

Nor do I see the Faith of the Seven as being better or worse than any other religion.  It is one of the few, at least, that does not currently practice human sacrifice.

Yes, the FM carried out the same massacres against CotF as the Andals once did. But then they converted to becoming green "knights".

Any claims about human sacrifice done by the FM for trees have Andals or andalized institutions as source and who knowingly lie about other aspects of history and magic.

Compared to our RW religions it's not better or worse. But Planetos isn't the RW.

 

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

And the First Men killed all the CotF until they signed a peace treaty. The Andals were only doing what the First Men did before them, there was eventually peace through intermarriage and stuff. I really doubt we are supposed to single out one entire group of people as 'the bad guys', but if we were I would certainly think it would be the Valyrians, who seem magnitudes worse than the Andals to me.

As you said: FM converted to tree religion.

There was peace through intermarriage with those who intermarried and were converted to the Faith. There wasn't for the people enslaved or driven off their lands into the Mountains of the Moon (still a current issue) or with the Northerners. And it is under their influence that the maesters go all "there's no magic, no Others, no CotF, no greenseers and if they are they're evil". And yes, they went the soft conversion route with lies and "look we're peaceful and do no harm and 'both sides'" tactic on the North and the Wall, until the FM tree worhsip is in such a minority that they turn the fanaticism dial back up.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

What's wrong with him trying to make his wife feel more comfortable? It's not like Chayle is trying to convert people. Saying Winterfell was 'nearly converted' is quite the exaggeration. I take Ned allowing a sept for his wife as something that shows how kind he is, not evidence of some mission to convert the 'Northern Heathens'. As for Bran, he was trying to think of how Bran could still be in a position of influence without being a knight, he was trying to encourage his son, was he not?

It's not quite the exaggeration. It's "soft conversion". In Ned's mind, the Faith and the tree worship have become an equivalent. He's a tree worshiper himself, but he's perfectly fine with his kids converting to the Faith. Ned not only acquires this mindset because of his marriage to Cat, but also being fostered at the Eyrie. He himself scoffs at the idea of Others, etc.

And yes, "soft conversion" includes sending out an innocent harmless septon like Chayle who ends up in charge of the library. It's a conversion strategy. Long term the evolution would be Ned's heir or grandson being a full convert and pressuring his vassals to do so as well. Give it another 100 years and there's an inquisition against tree worship, with some fanatical septon and maester advizing a Stark of the 7. This is exemplified with the fanatical septon at the Wall, who villifies any recruit who wishes to say their vows in front of a tree instead of the sept at CB.

ETA: what's so bad about it? The one lifeline of help and survival with old forgotten knowledge on how to battle wights and Others was at the brink of being lost. A lot was already forgotten. Ned ignored and dismissed signs something was up north of the Wall. He went south, he killed his daughter's wolf, would have sent his son Bran to Oldtown to become a septon. Westeros hangs on to complete annihilation because of Ned's children turning to the old gods as tethers to the green magic.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really doubt the Faith has an agenda, or that anyone outside of maybe an elite circle of maesters has an agenda.

Of course the agenda is only known to an elite circle, and they use the beliefs, prejudices and personalities of the many of their recruits for this.

Quote

I mean no offence, but this idea that the FotS has some agenda they are pursuing reminds me of all the weird conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church...

That the Catholic Church aims to maintain a position of power and dominance is not a weird idea to me. I live in a part of the world where intellectuals aimed to liberalize Christianity, in the city where the book press was developed, where the Cathedral was stormed, where my city was beleaguered by Alva (the general that even the Spanish despise), was subjected to Spanish Inquisition, and because of this remained Catholic for several centuries more. The intellectuals of my city fled north to the Netherlands. It was the same religion that villified working class movements. It is the same religion that still has the most schools (private) in our country, the most students and acquires the most taxes. My father wanted to be scratched from the baptism rolls, which is an arduous Kafkian process. My father and I were considered weird by society because we went to state schools, and not a Catholic one. My mother was considered weird because she was part of the minority protestant congregation. The belief that only Catholic schools and universities can provide for a good and high education is still a myth that is prevalent, and it's absurd. My parents wanted to give me the freedom to make up my own mind as I would grow up, until a mother of a playmate around the corner who taught catechism began to convert me when I was 5-6. My parents then began to actively school me in skepticism.

I've taught in state schools and private schools, orthodox Jewish schools and Catholic ones. I've experienced the outrage of Catholic colleagues at hearing who the Orthodox Jewish schools segregates girls from boys, including teachers, and had a dress code (only skirts, etc), and yet any teacher meeting was secular at the orthodox Jewish school, whereas during my lunch at a teacher conference day (no pupils around), the Catholic principal started a prayer for the meal (which was a first for me in my private time). Personally I have a bigger issue with being subjected to my boss leading his employees into prayer during their break and private time than a school giving me a dress code.

I don't know where you're from, but I do know where I'm from and the awful stuff the Catholic Church did and still hope to retain.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Andal King in that story was the victim not the perpetrator.

Ah, but the gods were upset about the breaking of guest right. It's a story told for FM and tree worshipers: you don't murder even your worst enemy when he's under protection of guest right.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, a drunk Septon says this. A drunken one. I think it is a huge leap to extrapolate this as evidence ofsome conspiracy.

But he was sent there by his superiors, and his fanatical ostracising ways are of use to them.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

With all due respect, this is your opinion, not a fact.

With all due respect, yes, that is my opinion. And so is yours. But at least I have some hints and themes to back up my opinion, instead of whatever you base your opinion on.

ETA: on "your so what?" about the NK and the Andal ones: The NK went down into history for thousands of years, his name obliterated and villified (rightly so). And many of us are of the "opinion" that the vows were likely adapted in answer to his crimes to prevent it from happening again. We are certain though those Andal LCs would have vowed not to be kings, etc, and would have had the NK story as a caution tale, and nevertheless they persisted.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

But at least I have some hints and themes to back up my opinion, instead of whatever you base your opinion on.

My opinion is based on analysis of facts too. I happen to disagree with your interpretation of the facts. I don't think this is a topic that we will see eye to eye on so I think we should just agree to disagree.

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31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

My opinion is based on analysis of facts too. I happen to disagree with your interpretation of the facts. I don't think this is a topic that we will see eye to eye on so I think we should just agree to disagree.

Which you barely provided, except for initial non-tree worshipping FM and NK who colluded with Others.

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Which you barely provided, except for initial non-tree worshipping FM and NK who colluded with Others.

We are working from the same set of facts...you think they are evidence of some conspiracy, I don't...but as I said, we can just agree to disagree, I don't think it's worth having an argument over.

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I’m not a Catholic myself, but none of the Catholics of my acquaintance have any desire to suppress other religions.

Catholics have, of course, practised persecution, but there were also medieval societies (like Poland/Lithuania, Spain, Sicily) that were fairly tolerant of other religions, as Westeros is.

Baelor was very much an outlier, if indeed, he intended to forcibly convert the North.

As to Ned, I think it’s very much a point in his favour that he does not require his wife or children to practise his religion.

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26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We are working from the same set of facts...you think they are evidence of some conspiracy, I don't...but as I said, we can just agree to disagree, I don't think it's worth having an argument over.

Well It's my OP, so I think it's worth expanding on, or I wouldn't have written the OP.

You started to call it a "conspiracy" and now try to make it into a strawman that I see evidence of a "conspiracy". I call it an agenda, which is slightly different. Since you never asked, and it's my OP, I'll say the agenda was dominion and conversion - basically common imperialism. That's where cultural appropriation comes in, propaganda, exclusion and lies about claims of what their culture "invented". And once you get masses hooked on "my gods are the right ones" you end up with believers doing it  automatically.

It's not tinfoil to claim Andals wanted dominion over all of Westeros or that the High Septon wants to convert everyone to the Faith. Nor is it tinfoil to say that when you can't slaughter people into conversion, you do it by acquainting the pagans to the Faith by having them live amongst them, and by sending harmless believers to the tolerant and acommodating. But tolerance to ultimately the intolerant leads to downfall of the tolerance. 

And from our world perspective it doesn't matter whether someone worhsips trees or lights a candle to the Mother, as long as they are good people who help each other. On Planetos though there are monsters like the Others and magic and actual people and species with godlike abilities to see in the past, with knowledge and powers to do something against that threat. The reason that this threat could be a threat is because the Citadel and the Faith convinced almost everyone that magic is not real, that the threat is not real. Their denialism did not alter Planetos. But the Faith worked like a slow poison for millenia to weaken the North and the Wall.

Edited by sweetsunray
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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As to Ned, I think it’s very much a point in his favour that he does not require his wife or children to practise his religion.

I always saw Ned allowing Catelyn to have a sept as just the act of a kind-hearted man. The Septon and Septa clearly do not intend to convert anyone else, we never hear anything of the sort. Sansa and Arya are free to pray to both the Old Gods and the New, as we see them do multiple times.

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

Well It's my OP, so I think it's worth expanding on, or I wouldn't have written the OP.

But I thought we were talking specifically about the things you mentioned in the previous post, not the OP in general.

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not tinfoil to claim Andals wanted dominion over all of Westeros or that the High Septon wants to convert everyone to the Faith.

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that I don't see Ned letting Cat have a Sept or Septon Cellador as evidence of this agenda or whatever you want to call it. The FotS is not a monolithic group. There is no evidence of Septon Chayle proselytising the North.

But as I've already said, I am happy to agree to disagree on this topic. You have your opinion from the facts, as do I, and it's not worth having a big argument over.

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’m not a Catholic myself, but none of the Catholics of my acquaintance have any desire to suppress other religions.

I experienced discrimination in my youth and teens for being non religious. Catholicism is the dominant religious affiliation here.

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30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I always saw Ned allowing Catelyn to have a sept as just the act of a kind-hearted man. The Septon and Septa clearly do not intend to convert anyone else, we never hear anything of the sort. Sansa and Arya are free to pray to both the Old Gods and the New, as we see them do multiple times.

I never claimed Ned did it for anything but being tolerant and kind-hearted and honorable.  And indeed Chayle does not convert anyone. I love Chayle. Mordane is a bit of another matter. It's quite clear that she's to raise both girls in a manner that is quite mysoginistic in accordance to southern gender ways (Mordan would fawn over Randyl Tarly's opinions imo). Yes, Sansa and Arya are free to pray to whomever they choose. And Sansa initially prefers the New gods.

Kudoz on the tolerance from a human rights perspective. My point is that this tolerance is used to convert the tolerant until it becomes the power in the North, and that's when the leagues of intolerant active converting septons and septas are sent in. So, ultimately "not good".

And that the Faith is ultimately intolerant we see in Cat's first POV. While Ned has built her a sept and never ever thinks ill of the Faith or their ways in any of his chapters, Catelyn cannot but help think ill of the weirwood tree and of the harsh strange ways of the North. She never says this out loud, but she'd obviously prefer it if everyone was a follower of the Faith and that tree wouldn't be there anymore. You can predict in that chapter that if Robb was matched up with another lady of the south, likely all his kids would be followers of the Faith and the weirwood tree would get the chop-chop on the insistence of a southern bride who's suspicious of a tree.

BTW a septa seems to be a new thing at Winterfell as well. Doesn't seem any other tree worshipping houses in the North have septas either. There doesn't seem to have been a septa for Lyanna Stark either.

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14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But I thought we were talking specifically about the things you mentioned in the previous post, not the OP in general.

You quoted me on a post in which I specifically said "going back to the OP", in which I mentioned the discrepancy of last heroes who get to be called knight, in contrast of septons making it their exclusive right to proclaim beforehand who's to be hero/knight on everything except their deeds.

Your reply basically came down to both siding and the opinion that if George writes the Andals and the Faith as having misappropriated so much stuff and causing evil it's bad writing. That's when I listed several hints and pointers and themes that support the Andals lied, propagandized and worked to convvert everybody, and that ultimately this is to the detriment of Westeros.

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46 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Your reply basically came down to both siding and the opinion that if George writes the Andals and the Faith as having misappropriated so much stuff and causing evil it's bad writing.

What I said is that it would be bad writing to pin all the evil on one group, the Andals.

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11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What I said is that it would be bad writing to pin all the evil on one group, the Andals.

And I never claimed all the evil is just one group.

But there's no reason to talk about the evil of Ironborn or of past Targs in this thread, because they're not the one claiming to have invented knighthood or claiming to have the exclusive right to determine who's a hero and who isn't.

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7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You claimed that the Faith is geared towards smallfolk for their everyday practical life.

No, not at all. This is what I wrote in that first post.

Quote

I've deemed the faith of the Seven as mostly a religion aimed at reaching the smallfolk aswell as the high classes. 

This means what it literally says: the faith of the seven is a religion aimed at everyone. Furthermore, it was "aspects" that fit into everyday life. You find warriors, mothers, fathers, smiths, crones all around the continent. Each aspect has a practical use for smallfolk and noblefolk. Catelyn does a full tour in a sept, stopping at each aspect, when she is praying for her family and relatives just before the war of the Five began. That's practicality for me. You then went on talking about manuals of cooking or whatever. And that it's what I didn't understand. As far I know, religions that go that especific about their stuff are sects and cults (and I was born into a family that adhered to a sect; cut out of it young, luckily)

What I was aiming at is that the old gods faith is simply not developed as the faith of the Seven. Developed by the author, I mean. The reason may be that he focused on the 'south of the Neck' plots.

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21 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Catelyn does a full tour in a sept, stopping at each aspect, when she is praying for her family and relatives just before the war of the Five began.

She goes the tour in a sept near Bitterbridge while she's at Renly's camp as an evnoy of her son. The war is already ongoing.

24 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

This means what it literally says: the faith of the seven is a religion aimed at everyone. Furthermore, it was "aspects" that fit into everyday life. You find warriors, mothers, fathers, smiths, crones all around the continent. Each aspect has a practical use for smallfolk and noblefolk.

Thank you for clarifying what you mean with the word "practical". Personally, I don't find gender-roles all that practical, but rather limiting. This is in evidence that many have to go through praying to several aspects at once. And while I recognize that both northerners and southerners, regardless of faith have gender role expectations and pressures, the Andalised southerners are far more extreme in this, with Tarly as perfect example of it, expressing his opinion that Brienne is in need of a good raping to set her straight. And imo no doubt the Faith and the roles of six of those 7 aspects help in trying to push people into a gender role, while punishing and ostracizing any person who doesn't fit into it. And even the characters who lean towards one aspect get into trouble because of it. Catelyn steps out of her role as mother early on in the series, and acts like a judge arresting Tyrion, and must be a diplomat, and again as resurrected crone she must judge. When Sansa's "faith" is betrayed by fathers, queenly mothers, knighted warriors and septons, she ends up at the Vale wishing for a godswood with a tree. Brienne is a maiden and warrior both. Jaime identified with the warrior and neglected or was unable to be a father. Cersei makes motherhood her mask, but she would have liked to be a warrior and believes herself to be a better judge (father). I don't expect it to be that much different for smallfolk who still have their household to run, children to raise, earnings to acquired, amidst wars, raids in which fathers or husbands are levied for war and never return.

Life, noble or common, cannot be boxed into role aspects.

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