The warrior vs knight

[sweetsunray]

58 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

As far I know, religions that go that especific about their stuff are sects and cults (and I was born into a family that adhered to a sect; cut out of it young, luckily)

The old testament is full of such rules and so is Islam. And in my youth school diners or related excursion places would only offer fish on the menu for children on Friday, because that was the Catholic menu (even pluralistic state schools did this). These are hardly ever regarded as cults.

(I hated fish as a child, and an excursion on Fridays meant I wouldn't have lunch.)

I am happy for you that you managed to cut out of it young.

[Jon Fossoway]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The old testament is full of such rules and so is Islam. And in my youth school diners or related excursion places would only offer fish on the menu for children on Friday, because that was the Catholic menu (even pluralistic state schools did this). These are hardly ever regarded as cults.

 

That's cute.

Joke aside: I was talking about a real sect with established ways for marriage, eating (not just friday), dressing and all. The little bubble ones. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Jon Fossoway said:

That's cute.

Joke aside: I was talking about a real sect with established ways for marriage, eating (not just friday), dressing and all. The little bubble ones. 

I understood what you meant.

But Islam does stipulate when to pray, which direction to pray, what not to eat, and has other directions.

Orthodox Jews follow the rules postulated in the Old Testament to the Jews as they journey in the desert after fleeing Egypt with Mozes. The Jewish kitchen is based on this. When I had my birthday I bought kosher cakes for my pupils and then I made the mistake of cutting it myself with a knife from the teacher's room. They wouldn't touch it. Luckily I had a second cake, and they managed to get a kosher knife and cut it themselves. For passover all the homes and the school had to be free from any grain. Kids would bring all the leftover food to school for the secular teachers so their home was free from any grain related product, and the school was sold for 1 day to someone secular, so that during that day the school wasn't Jewish and thus any crumb of grain would not be an issue.  Much of the potato dishes were invented as an alternative to grain dishes because of this feast. Secular people may consider the Orthodox jews a cult, but it's a global one and fairly large, with lots of private schools globally, where even none-Orthodox go to school to experience and understand what they refer to as their cultural roots.

I do consider much of these things as "practical" though. I have my Flylady and my fitness app with menu maker so I don't have to waste my time in figuring out what to clean today or what to prepare for my meals. Of course none of these planners are tied to what I believe or not believe, and if I feel like take-out or skipping something I'm at total liberty to do so, without religious or peerage consequences.

[James Arryn]

The Bible talks about what you can eat, how, and when a LOT. Just gradually over time some Super Important things to biblical writers were ignored, others that got less mention in the bible somehow became so important as to kill/die for. 
 

All (monotheistic, anyways) religions look like cults from the outside. Some would say with good reason. 

[three-eyed monkey]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, I understood your point. I was adding, expanding to your point.

Got a question though... what about Bran? He had a horse called Dancer. It died in the same fire as was Smiler. How do you fit that with your proposal?

Sorry, I picked you up wrong.

I don't know if Dancer and Smiler are connected to the honor theme, but I agree with you that GRRM uses horses in a number of ways, often revealing something about the rider. I feel the main thing about Bran and Theon's horses is their names.

Smiler is very appropriate to Theon because smiling is a a prominent feature of his character. Bran observed that Theon was always smiling, as if the world was some private joke that only he was clever enough to understand. Then after Winterfell was sacked Theon didn't smile anymore because Ramsay took a hammer to his teeth. So perhaps the death of Smiler marks the day the smiles died for Theon? The broader symbolism to figure out here might be what do smiles symbolize.

Dancer is trickier when we related to Bran. Dancing is clearly a metaphor for fighting. Waymar telling the Other to dance with him in the prologue. Syrio teaching Arya to fight in the style of the water dancer and not the iron dance of the knights of Westeros. Ned reflecting on the rebellion being a dance of blood and vengeance. And of course, the dance of the dragons.

How does this relate to Bran? I'm not sure, really. My initial thoughts bring a couple of things to mind. Meribald told Podrick that someone without a tongue making a vow of silence is akin to a man without legs giving up the dance. I always felt this referred to Bran in some way, given that Bran lost the use of his legs. Bran wanted to be a knight, and knights dance the iron dance, but Bran could no longer pursue that dream after his fall. This set him on a different path to find the three-eyed crow. That journey began after the sack of Winterfell, where Bran's horse Dancer died.

 

 

 

[Jon Fossoway]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

But Islam does stipulate when to pray, which direction to pray, what not to eat, and has other directions.

 

Geezus, you are really hard in the head. Does ¡"the little bubble ones" ring any bells? The kind that live apart, in the woods, probably endogamic? It's an extreme example but the vibe is the same, only translated to modern times. Islam is a huge religion. Mine was a tiny one. A sect, a cult. The ones ruled by people usually insane, like Jim Jones.  Sorry, but I didn't finish reading your post, although I'm sure it was an interesting read.

I'm gonna drop this thread now. Buh bye.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I feel the main thing about Bran and Theon's horses is their names.

Very much agree!

 

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Smiler is very appropriate to Theon because smiling is a a prominent feature of his character. Bran observed that Theon was always smiling, as if the world was some private joke that only he was clever enough to understand. Then after Winterfell was sacked Theon didn't smile anymore because Ramsay took a hammer to his teeth. So perhaps the death of Smiler marks the day the smiles died for Theon?

Also how I interprete it.

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The broader symbolism to figure out here might be what do smiles symbolize.

Red smiles mean death to the smiler: Robert has a bloody red smile as he lies dying, and then there are the sourleaf eaters such as Masha Heddle (Cat considered it a "bloody horror"), Chett, the pious dwarf that mentions "fooling a fool" to Brienne, Yoren. Bennis of the Brown Shield managed to flee unharmed from Eustace and Rohanne Webber (as far as we know). Two men currently alive also have a red smile from sourlead - Emmon Frey (expected to die in the RW2.0), Marwyn (at least expected to get to Meereen or Volantis somehow, ...). Arya chewed it once after Yoren gave her a spanking, but no more.

And then there is The Smiling Knight, the outlaw of the Kingswood, who kidnapped Jeyne Swann (hmmm another Jeyne). The Smiling Knight was mad and cruel and chivalrous, and ultimately killed in a duel with Arthur Dayne.

Theon not smiling means he cannot show a red smile, and thus he lives? And he might get wooden teeth like Dywen of the NW, which would make Theon a tree-man (wooden man)

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Dancer is trickier when we related to Bran. Dancing is clearly a metaphor for fighting. Waymar telling the Other to dance with him in the prologue. Syrio teaching Arya to fight in the style of the water dancer and not the iron dance of the knights of Westeros. Ned reflecting on the rebellion being a dance of blood and vengeance. And of course, the dance of the dragons.

How does this relate to Bran? I'm not sure, really. My initial thoughts bring a couple of things to mind. Meribald told Podrick that someone without a tongue making a vow of silence is akin to a man without legs giving up the dance. I always felt this referred to Bran in some way, given that Bran lost the use of his legs. Bran wanted to be a knight, and knights dance the iron dance, but Bran could no longer pursue that dream after his fall. This set him on a different path to find the three-eyed crow. That journey began after the sack of Winterfell, where Bran's horse Dancer died.

I agree that dance is a euphemism to fighting or warring.

It's not just that Dancer died in the sack of Winterfell. Since the arrival of the two Walders, Bran was not allowed to ride on Dancer anymore by maester Luwin beyond the gates and walls. Bran is very frustrated by this. He does ride Dancer during the harvest feast. Normally Bran couldn't have ridden a horse anymore, but Tyrion gave him the saddle idea that enabled him to ride.

Meribald's words imply that it's not really something a man without legs gives up. Someone without a tongue may not speak but still sign or write. Bran is still able to use his mind to fight, and indeed his horse after Dancer can be said to be Hodor (no disrespect intended), and Hodor fights for Bran while skinchanged. Even Dancer reminds me of a wooden puppet anology.

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Geezus, you are really hard in the head. Does ¡"the little bubble ones" ring any bells? The kind that live apart, in the woods, probably endogamic? It's an extreme example but the vibe is the same, only translated to modern times. Islam is a huge religion. Mine was a tiny one. A sect, a cult. The ones ruled by people usually insane, like Jim Jones.  Sorry, but I didn't finish reading your post, although I'm sure it was an interesting read.

I'm gonna drop this thread now. Buh bye.

Truly I meant no disrespect to your experience or what you tried to convey, nor trying to make it less. I was not trying to argue that the group you were with was not a sect or cult, or that Islam is necessarily a sect or cult. And I am truly sorry for such an exprience and having to break away from it. Both must have been very traumatic. I wish you peace and much joy in loved ones.

[sweetsunray]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:13 AM, Curled Finger said:

I've struggled whether to ask for some modern help with this as I am still 3 or 4 characters short of my 12.  Had a topic a million years ago, but that was then.  Doubt I will open a new topic ever again.  The 3 I listed were from a list of the original 12 basic of basic classes.  I thought a Ranger was a fighter, but no, he seems to be a woodsman, silly me.  I had a blast matching these characters up to ASOIAF heroes...and villains as it turns out years later.  I admit your stats info is way over my experience points, but I believe you as the experienced sounding member of the conversation.  I do appreciate the info, Ser. 

I think you're on to something, but I think you might approach it less restrictive. Imo these would all be "green knights" in some way, but each has an aspect that makes them unique:

• Bran is a green knight of the mind,
• Jon is a green dragonknight,
• Brienne will be the first female green knight,
• Jaime a green knight looking for redemption,
• Gendry a green knight from the smallfolk,
• Sandor a not so dead green knight,
• Samwell a fearful-but-brave green knight,
• Arya a dark (green) knight
• Jorah an exiled green knight
• a Dayne as a Sword in the Morning Green knight
• Meera, a crannog green knight

Shadrich may be one if he is Howland Reed. Theon may end up as a priestly green knight.

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think you're on to something, but I think you might approach it less restrictive. Imo these would all be "green knights" in some way, but each has an aspect that makes them unique:

• Bran is a green knight of the mind,
• Jon is a green dragonknight,
• Brienne will be the first female green knight,
• Jaime a green knight looking for redemption,
• Gendry a green knight from the smallfolk,
• Sandor a not so dead green knight,
• Samwell a fearful-but-brave green knight,
• Arya a dark (green) knight
• Jorah an exiled green knight
• a Dayne as a Sword in the Morning Green knight
• ...

Shadrich may be one if he is Howland Reed. Theon may end up as a priestly green knight.

 

I love that.  This little dive into yet again something new was a refreshing way to examine characters as is looking at them as "green".  Amazing what you open up to this way.   I'm not so sure about Shadrich in the big picture, but I've given Theon a lot of thought among the heroes.  He's broken now, but he has shown he's got what it takes.  It's hard for me to waive his expert shooting of the wildlings who took Bran and the mercy killing of the Ironborn captain at Moat Cailyn and keeping Jeyne reasonably safe.  He's not a complete Reek.  

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I love that.  This little dive into yet again something new was a refreshing way to examine characters as is looking at them as "green".  Amazing what you open up to this way.   I'm not so sure about Shadrich in the big picture, but I've given Theon a lot of thought among the heroes.  He's broken now, but he has shown he's got what it takes.  It's hard for me to waive his expert shooting of the wildlings who took Bran and the mercy killing of the Ironborn captain at Moat Cailyn and keeping Jeyne reasonably safe.  He's not a complete Reek.  

Each would have a ghost-tie too. Most often because they're believed to be dead. But George merged the Arthurian Green Knight with Dr. Weird (green gold). It's not his own hero, but one of his oldest short stories that got published  in a fanzine magazine when he was a teen - "Only kids are afraid in the dark" - includes this superhero.

The backstory of Dr. Weird is that he ended up killed by burglars after he stepped out of a time machine, at a time before he was born. That created a paradox, and for this Dr. Weird was doomed to wander as a superhero ghost until he catches up with his own time again, fighting demons. So, a thief (stole rubies), ends up accidentally opening a portal for a demon with batwings symbolism to re-enter the world in his own long forgotten temple, when he murders his partner-in-crime sleeping on the altar. The demon cannot physically kill anyone but he can destroy souls and minds, and he destroys the soul and mind of the thief. The thief ends up in a state exactly like Drogo basically: phsyically breathing and can be made to move, but nobody's home. Dr. Weird can sense the demon's existence in the world and goes to the temple to investigate, finds Jasper the thief and meets the demon. The demon is a threat to Dr. Weird, because in principal he's a ghost, a soul, a spirit. An "eternal night" starts and people begin to worship the demon, sacrificing virgins to him. But dr. Weird plays a trick on the demon in their final confrontation. He dresses Jasper up in his usual superhero green-gold costume and whitens Jasper's face, so that the demon believes Jasper is Dr. Weird. Dr. Weird then jumps into soulless Jasper to make him move. Each time the demon throws his soul destroying attack at Jasper-looking-like-Dr.Weird, Dr. Weird exits the body to avoid the blast, which drops and the demon thinks he succeeded. But then Dr. Weird jumps back in and Jasper starts to move again. This occurs a couple of times, and the demon is confused and becoming scared, because his powers seem to fail at destroying Dr. Weird. And just then Dr. Weird blasts the demon with his superpower from his "golden arm (bright as a  sun)" and the demon is sent back to his otherworldly plain. The sun begins to rise and Dr. Weird reveals his trick to the reader, donning back his green-golden suit.

The short story itself is rather crudely written, very  dualistic, but it has certain thematic ways on how George tends to resolve conflicts or dangers, and quite obvious plots and favourite archetypes that he incorporated by the multitude in asoiaf. Dr. Weird pretty much does the skinchanging of another person. There's the "ghost" and "resurrection" elements.

In the First Dornish wars we have a retelling of the Dr. Weird trick against Balerion and Aegon I (bat wings and same black-red color scheme as the demon Saagael). As Aegon and Visenya blast their way across Dorne in revenge of Rhaenys, at some point Aegon takes his anger out on House Toland of Ghost Hill. Lord Toland sends out a champion to fight Aegon. After the champion is killed, Aegon learns it was House Toland's fool (the thief Jasper is referred to as a fool by Dr. Weird), and discovers that the lord and his family had disappeared. When Aegon returned to KL, House Toland retook Ghost Hill, and altered his sigil from a ghost on a grey field to a green dragon biting its own tail on a golden field in honor of the dead fool's motley of green-gold. And the coup de grace was given by Prince Martell who wrote a letter (with his hand and arm) to Aegon that made Aegon accept the peace and never try to conquer it again. The sigil of House Martel is a bursting sun and a spear (which are "arms"), and the capital Sunspear.

In the Pearl poet's version of Gawain and the Green Knight, the Green Knight is described as green + gold and ermine. So, it's easy to blend concepts or archetypes into one.

So anyone who's referenced as a ghost or can be a ghost, has a "fool" near, the color scheme of grey/white as well as green-gold gets to play or be involved in Dr. Weird's trick, and Dr. Weird is a green knight. 

• Jon has a white direwolf called Ghost, and there's a fool at the Wall, with a broken mind. We should witness and see Dr. Weird's trick played out at the Wall against the demonic Others.
• Gendry is Renly's ghost in Brienne's POV, and Renly wore a green + gold armor
• Lady Stoneheart is a living ghost all in grey with Renly's ghost at hand and Cat saw herself drowned in Renly's green-golden armor. And she went into the Neck in the company of Lem Lemoncloak and Tom Sevenstreams (gold/yellow and green). In grey and as a living ghost, she's the precursor of the return of a green-gold Dr. Weird (Bran)
• Jaime is green-eyed and has a golden hand where he used to have his swordhand.

Since Dr. Weird is a superhero, and morphed into the Green Knight in asoiaf, it stands to reason that the twelve you seek to wield a magical sword ought to be (Golden) Green Knights

[Hugorfonics]

@sweetsunray

Correct thread lol. Sry

 

I'm not sure if the faith and andalism is in itself detrimental.

That they're taking over is without a doubt, Ned builds the Sept presumably to get his wife to stop saying the word "Ashara" out loud, his father I guess didn't forsee the dilemma of andalism because of his southron ambitions, but I agree the Septons are not there to play ball. After all, we hear stories of Greyjoy acting the ref, "your outta here!" 

But I'm not sure it's much of an improvement. Just because Andalism is wrong doesn't necessarily make Ironbornism right.

Or First Menism, if the Andals brought writing instead of getting a magician who can speak chirp on Mother's Day, then that's definitely a good thing. What we truly do know of the First Men is that they were feudal as fuck, for all extensive purposes, history begins with the builder of Winterfell, so that's not necessarily chill. Did Andals appropriate them with the constructs of fortresses like Twins and Harbor, sure but they're kinda cool looking too. Less magical then Stormsend but just as good as keeping the average smallfolk out (or just as useless at keeping smugglers out)

And if knights truly were an appropriation too, as I think they were too, then the boujee attitude and non stop misogynism that are synonymous with knights may be an andalized thing, but they were always murderers. And if, like I also like thinking, that knights were directly influenced by the NW well that's not great either as the Knights Watch is possibly the most deprived, foolish and heinous orders I've ever read about.

 

Although we are definitely encouraged to root for First Men. The story opens with Bran after all and despite the politics of Sansa, the wars of Dany and a song of Jon and Snow, we all know who the real main character is. And despite the wanton red flags, the main character remains the hero. 

But likewise we see the political backdoor dealings, lies and deceit, torture and chauvinism that the High Sparrow spews, but he's still kinda good, right? Or at least his knights, Lancel. That weak piece of nothing, but, maybe the cause will be good for him? And while I agree the 7 leave much to be desired, they're still a better master then Joff

[GZ Bloodraven]

John the Oak, a First Man, was the first knight, right? I think the idea of "being knighted" by an authority is an Andalos concept, but being a knight as associated with jousts, chivalry, sigils etc., seems to be a First Man concept. 

[Hugorfonics]

12 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

John the Oak, a First Man, was the first knight, right? I think the idea of "being knighted" by an authority is an Andalos concept, but being a knight as associated with jousts, chivalry, sigils etc., seems to be a First Man concept. 

I think it's the other way around.

Like swearing to do the Trees work in front of the tree is kinda a swearing knighting situation 

Jousts specifically aren't a northern thing though, so imo almost definitely an invention of the Andals. Chivalry as well seems to be something the Faith would be into.

The sigils is interesting, when I think of the origin illyrio always comes to mind 

Quote

"You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. 

So he got this mindset after spending more then thirty seconds with Viserys, as expected. But his sister would flip if she heard that, not that she actually thinks she's a dragon, but I wouldn't ask any questions as I'm unsure of the answer.

But the children? Arya thrashes at her linen. The Starks are definitely direwolves so I kinda think sigils are a first men thing.

Again this shieldhall which is just as mysterious and filled with bullshit imo as the concept of John the Oac, would imply that that groovy looking shields once furnished the cafeteria so that'd also imply it's a first men thing. (But Im filled with doubts about that)

[GZ Bloodraven]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like swearing to do the Trees work in front of the tree is kinda a swearing knighting situation 

Jousts specifically aren't a northern thing though, so imo almost definitely an invention of the Andals. Chivalry as well seems to be something the Faith would be into.

But only the Night's Watch swear in front of the tree for their oaths: I don't think this was broadly customary.

There are conflicting reports about chivalry: people in the Reach say the First Knight John the Oak did introduce chivalry to Westeros, others say it was the Andals. I would assume that it was the Andals that brought it all, and John the Oak was just later given a First Men origin for knights as well as the older First Men warriors. And the Warrior is not the Knight for the same reason the Father is not the King: less political. Knights seem to be part of the political and religious institution: knights swear to uphold the code of the Warrior, the "patron" of knighthood" who remains unpolitical.

 

[Hugorfonics]

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

But only the Night's Watch swear in front of the tree for their oaths: I don't think this was broadly customary.

NW is the most prominent as they take up like 25% of the pages but nah, they all do that. My thinking is like, "did you brush your teeth? Will you say that again in front of a tree?... Yea, thought so"

We see it with Jeyne and Ramsay and potentially with Umber and Stannis. Probably others, they're all in into it

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

There are conflicting reports about chivalry: people in the Reach say the First Knight John the Oak did introduce chivalry to Westeros, others say it was the Andals. I would assume that it was the Andals that brought it all, and John the Oak was just later given a First Men origin for knights as well as the older First Men warriors.

So whats the definition of chivalry? Rampant misogynism mixed with steel? Belittlement of smallfolk? Something about a horse?

John the Oak is almost certainly fictitious, it's possible I suppose there was someone once name John but it's just as likely his name was Jon.

Is it possible he invited horseback riding, sexism and pinky promises? Yea but, no. Especially since his brothers were all heroes too and their dad was like the Yellow Emperor. Lots of holes in the story.

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

And the Warrior is not the Knight for the same reason the Father is not the King: less political. Knights seem to be part of the political and religious institution: knights swear to uphold the code of the Warrior, the "patron" of knighthood" who remains unpolitical.

Possible, for sure 

[Springwatch]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So whats the definition of chivalry? Rampant misogynism mixed with steel? Belittlement of smallfolk? Something about a horse?

That's like saying the definition of vegetarianism is eating bacon, isn't it?

At the end of the day, a knight is a killing machine, therefore a knight with chivalry is infinitely better than one without. It's the difference between Barristan and Gregor.

ETA

(Working backwards) - the Warrior is not the Knight because knights are bound by oaths and gods aren't. Knights serve, gods don't. A knight is not born, but created by being knighted by someone. Gods aren't.

(I will now read the thread properly...)

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

That's like saying the definition of vegetarianism is eating bacon, isn't it?

It's more like saying the definition of vegetarianism is eating fish.

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

At the end of the day, a knight is a killing machine, therefore a knight with chivalry is infinitely better than one without. It's the difference between Barristan and Gregor.

But who the hell wants a machine? We want people with free will. Gregor is a knight, which is kinda the whole problem. Contrast that with his brother who isn't great either but still monumentally better. 

It takes a special someone to use a princess as a squire, I have a very hard time seeing Barri treat the gentler sex as Arya was trained by the Hound

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

(Working backwards) - the Warrior is not the Knight because knights are bound by oaths and gods aren't. Knights serve, gods don't. A knight is not born, but created by being knighted by someone. Gods aren't.

Yea, could be. 

26 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

(I will now read the thread properly...)

Very interesting imo

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But who the hell wants a machine? We want people with free will.

Exactly so. But then people do terrible things with free will, so we've got another problem.

I reckon control versus free will is the foundation stone of the entire structure of the books. I reckon the Others are the epitome of control - corpse handlers, skinchangers, puppeteers. And so, (getting into near-tinfoil territory now), because knights are bound by honour and duty etc, sometimes to extreme levels, I think the template of knighthood comes not from Andals or First Men, but from the mysterious and spooky world of Ice. This gives us an alternative take on 'true knight - not as protector of weak humanity, but the perfection of duty: so, killer robot or animated corpse. Gregor Clegane is no true knight, but Ser Robert Strong absolutely is. And to be honest, the most knightly of the knights (the White Bull, the Sword of the Morning) come close to this ideal too.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Gregor is a knight, which is kinda the whole problem. Contrast that with his brother who isn't great either but still monumentally better. 

They both have lots of free will, though.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It takes a special someone to use a princess as a squire, I have a very hard time seeing Barri treat the gentler sex as Arya was trained by the Hound

Intriguing thought. I can't really see Barri giving Arya any survival skills. And yet, and yet... Barristan's not quite so rigid as he was. Maybe he could give her something - maybe just seeing him in action would give her a bit of hope, because so far she's just seen the good guys die.

I'm a Sandor fan, but I've got to admit he's still off the rails mentally when he's with Arya, and I can't remember anything specific, but I'm pretty sure he transmits some of his nihilism and despair to her. But he did help her too.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Very interesting imo

It is! I am on page 3.

[sweetsunray]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:50 AM, Hugorfonics said:

But I'm not sure it's much of an improvement. Just because Andalism is wrong doesn't necessarily make Ironbornism right.

I see WF as final haven of the sole great house still worshiping trees as being threatened by poison. That of the Faith is like sweetsleep (the smart slow soft conversion approach). The Ironborn are poison too... seawater is poisonous and so is salting the earth. But poison can also be used to fight another poison. Though I love Chayle and he's a sweet innocent guy who did not deserve to be drowned in a well, Theon does end up purging WF in a way (and I mean this solely in a meta-way), and even maester Luwin. Luwin is a loyal caring man. Love him too, but it's his drugging a boy that leads to Bran feeling ashamed of his wolf dreams, and he becomes far more dangerous, as we witness when he cannot control Summer who starts to be a threat to Jojen and Meera, just for Jojen mentioning that Bran is a warg. He also becomes rather mean to Osha who asks about his dreams. The maesters wear a "chain", which is a slave symbol... they're the Citadel's slaves or more precise, their minds are enslaved to the dogma of "no magic". And it is Luwin who ends up deciding over Bran's worries to send a majority of men after Dagmer and leaving WF basically unprotected. Bran turns away from Luwin and does not confide in him anymore after that. This I think is Luwin's regret, but he also starts to recognize why Bran sought to act on his own. And eventually in Luwin we witness a conversion in the other direction. Though he was speared in the yard, he dragged himself to the godswood and to the tree, choosing to die there, and he thanks the gods when Bran and Rickon show up, and asks Osha to mercy kill him in that spot. Osha btw is a stand in CotF with her hair like a nest and shaggy and once teaching Bran about the gods whispering, while shadows from leafs made her skin look dappled (and kept in chains by Luwin).

The Ironborn's poisonous salt is then cleansed by Ramsay's fire. That fire also produces some imagery or illusion of a dragon flying across WF (and with the description of the old tower as if the dragon burst out of there). While I interprete it on the one hand as a hint to Brandon the Builder's dragonblood, as well as "waking a dragon from stone" imgary for Jon, it also implies "the dragon's poison is gone".

So, basically by the end of aCoK: no more sept, no more septon, no drowned god, no Targ dragon influence anymore. WF itself in a way is liberated and the land and region returns more and more to the old gods. Mel cannot see Stannis. Stannis doesn't seem to see anything in fires either at the crofter village. The stakes to burn the cannibals cannot even burn either bodies or wood completely: charr or blacken. The same power that makes Thoros cannot see anything in flames at High Heart in the RL is what prevents Mel from seeing Stannis. And Stannis' blindness nudges him to accept and rely way more on the Mountain Clans and ultimately tree-magic when it comes to capturing WF.

If this wasn't a world of magic and the Others weren't a threat, I would consider the Faith over all as a benign religion. And the Ironborn's Drowned God is just horrible.