The Theft of Ice

[Canon Claude]

You'd think that would have had higher consequences than it did. Valyrian Steel blades are basically priceless, and they are often ancient heirlooms which are closely associated with their respective houses. 

Tywin had a lot of nerve to not only steal Ice for himself, but also melt it down to make two swords. That sets a very  dangerous precedent for any house moving forward. Imagine if the Daynes of Starfall had been in Eddard's position. Would Tywin have stolen Dawn and done the same? The backlash would have been incredible, especially from any house with their own Valyrian Steel blades to protect. No amount of gold that Tywin had offered was enough for any house to part with their blades. The theft of one of these blades should have been high scandal, no?

[Loose Bolt]

None of other great houses own a VS sword. So that should not be huge problem for Lannisters. But reasons for their failure will be something else.

[Curled Finger]

Spoils of war.  Tywin appears to be able to pull a great many dastardly deeds and get away with them.  Ice is interesting as one of the two confirmed greatswords you actually could reconfigure into smaller blades. We know Tywin approached impoverished houses to buy their swords and was rebuffed.  Owning a VS sword was very important to Tywin.   We see in the reforging and fashioning that Tywin meant to utterly claim Ice as Lannister in adding dye to color of the blades and rubies to adorn the hilts.  He was essentially erasing the blandness of the Starks and infusing Ice with the personality of his house.  

Jamie thinks it's ironic that Brienne should have Ned's sword to hunt down then protect his daughters.  I think it's more ironic that the swords Tywin went to such great lengths to take and make were given away (OK) and never used at all (WW) by Lannisters.  Old Tywin would roll in his grave.  

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Spoils of war.  Tywin appears to be able to pull a great many dastardly deeds and get away with them.  Ice is interesting as one of the two confirmed greatswords you actually could reconfigure into smaller blades. We know Tywin approached impoverished houses to buy their swords and was rebuffed.  Owning a VS sword was very important to Tywin.   We see in the reforging and fashioning that Tywin meant to utterly claim Ice as Lannister in adding dye to color of the blades and rubies to adorn the hilts.  He was essentially erasing the blandness of the Starks and infusing Ice with the personality of his house.  

Jamie thinks it's ironic that Brienne should have Ned's sword to hunt down then protect his daughters.  I think it's more ironic that the swords Tywin went to such great lengths to take and make were given away (OK) and never used at all (WW) by Lannisters.  Old Tywin would roll in his grave.  

Even more ironic when he married Tyrion to Sansa with the intention of gaining Winterfell. Why not just keep the sword intact at this point? Then at least one Lannister would be in possession of an ancestral VS. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the first time the readers become aware of Ice being broken down and given away is after Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.

[James Steller]

10 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Even more ironic when he married Tyrion to Sansa with the intention of gaining Winterfell. Why not just keep the sword intact at this point? Then at least one Lannister would be in possession of an ancestral VS. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the first time the readers become aware of Ice being broken down and given away is after Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.

As if (a) Tyrion could wield Ice, and (b) Tywin would ever allow the one Lannister with a VS sword to be the person he hates most in the world.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

9 minutes ago, James Steller said:

As if (a) Tyrion could wield Ice, and (b) Tywin would ever allow the one Lannister with a VS sword to be the person he hates most in the world.

I'm not suggesting Tyrion wield Ice. Ancestral swords have too much importance and history to merely be given away simply because the lord of the house can't physically wield it. There's a good chance Sansa and Tyrion would produce average sized children. So his sons could one day wield it, if physically possible.

But yeah, I could see him being petty enough to deny Tyrion Ice. But breaking it down and giving it to someone like Ser Ilyn Payne? Almost seems like something Cersei would do.

[James Steller]

1 minute ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

 

But yeah, I could see him being petty enough to deny Tyrion Ice. But breaking it down and giving it to someone like Ser Ilyn Payne? Almost seems like something Cersei would do.

Did he give it to Ilyn? I thought Ilyn only used Ice before the breakdown, and it was never meant to be a permanent arrangement. I thought he always meant for Jaime and Joffrey to have the two swords. 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Did he give it to Ilyn? I thought Ilyn only used Ice before the breakdown, and it was never meant to be a permanent arrangement. I thought he always meant for Jaime and Joffrey to have the two swords. 

You're right actually, my bad.

[astarkchoice]

50 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Even more ironic when he married Tyrion to Sansa with the intention of gaining Winterfell. Why not just keep the sword intact at this point? Then at least one Lannister would be in possession of an ancestral VS. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the first time the readers become aware of Ice being broken down and given away is after Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.

Because all the other houses have proper v.swords that can be used in battle and lord snooty mc snob  hasnt one  for his family so he melted down neds oversized execution one and finaly got his family a v blade as well as one for the 'king'  

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Because all the other houses have proper v.swords that can be used in battle and lord snooty mc snob  hasnt one  for his family so he melted down neds oversized execution one and finaly got his family a v blade as well as one for the 'king'  

Actually the VS swords are said to be used ceremonially though we see Harlaw and Tarly take theirs to battle in the current story and all of the old VS (except Ice) used in battles historically. 

[Curled Finger]

58 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Even more ironic when he married Tyrion to Sansa with the intention of gaining Winterfell. Why not just keep the sword intact at this point? Then at least one Lannister would be in possession of an ancestral VS. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the first time the readers become aware of Ice being broken down and given away is after Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.

I think the reforging happened right around the time Tywin dropped the bomb on Tyrion that he had to marry Sansa.  Oh that Tywin, comedy gagster and plutocrat.   Overall, this is where I think GRRM decided he would make himself a big old magical sword element in the story and required a certain number of them, thus the dividing of Ice.  Symbolically (don't hold me to this, I'm terrible with symbolism) the destruction and reconstruction of Ice is representative of House Stark itself.  The old blood is gone.  Ned is dead, Benjen is long gone.  All that remains are these new magical Starks flung to the far corners of the world in their new guises but still Starks.  Do they even need a magical weapon?  Do Longclaw and Needle replace Ice in some way or do they point to the eventual reclamation of Ice?  Something else? 

I do believe Ice was a magical sword and wondered for a long time if it would work now in its new forms.  That blue light in Jamie's dream bugged me a lot.  Other symbolism and all that.  (Warned you I was very bad with this!)  After much list making and cross checking I decided OK & WW retained Ice's magic regardless what was done to them.  They are and always were intended for use in the Battle for Dawn.  All that really happened was allowing at least one Lannister to claim some honor in this battle.  All in all, Tywin can do back flips in his grave.  The dumb ass meant to do a selfish thing that may end up helping saving everyone.  

[Curled Finger]

53 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Did he give it to Ilyn? I thought Ilyn only used Ice before the breakdown, and it was never meant to be a permanent arrangement. I thought he always meant for Jaime and Joffrey to have the two swords. 

Not sure if it was Joffrey or Tywin, but someone made Illyn a really bitchen new sword after Ned's beheading.  

[astarkchoice]

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Actually the VS swords are said to be used ceremonially though we see Harlaw and Tarly take theirs to battle in the current story and all of the old VS (except Ice) used in battles historically. 

So does lyn corbray ,longclaw was clearly in use, the drumm ironborn draws his 'red rain' too suggesting its at his  hip.

They seem.tk be pretty muvh in use ...in a word of swords in active use anyone with a v.steel.sword would wanna use it

[James Steller]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

So does lyn corbray ,longclaw was clearly in use, the drumm ironborn draws his 'red rain' too suggesting its at his  hip.

They seem.tk be pretty muvh in use ...in a word of swords in active use anyone with a v.steel.sword would wanna use it

That does make me wonder if Ned used Ice when he went to war. 

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

So does lyn corbray ,longclaw was clearly in use, the drumm ironborn draws his 'red rain' too suggesting its at his  hip.

They seem.tk be pretty muvh in use ...in a word of swords in active use anyone with a v.steel.sword would wanna use it

Right.  I was just being a little sarcastic there mentioning the ceremonial bit.  Why even bring it up when nearly everyone uses theirs?  I will take a bit of exception with Longclaw, though, in the same light as Ice.  It surely didn't seem to be in use at all before Jon took possession of it.  Perhaps the northerners use their VS ceremonially traditionally? 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

That does make me wonder if Ned used Ice when he went to war. 

Or if Jorah took Longclaw with him?

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think the reforging happened right around the time Tywin dropped the bomb on Tyrion that he had to marry Sansa.  Oh that Tywin, comedy gagster and plutocrat.   Overall, this is where I think GRRM decided he would make himself a big old magical sword element in the story and required a certain number of them, thus the dividing of Ice.  Symbolically (don't hold me to this, I'm terrible with symbolism) the destruction and reconstruction of Ice is representative of House Stark itself.  The old blood is gone.  Ned is dead, Benjen is long gone.  All that remains are these new magical Starks flung to the far corners of the world in their new guises but still Starks.  Do they even need a magical weapon?  Do Longclaw and Needle replace Ice in some way or do they point to the eventual reclamation of Ice?  Something else? 

I do believe Ice was a magical sword and wondered for a long time if it would work now in its new forms.  That blue light in Jamie's dream bugged me a lot.  Other symbolism and all that.  (Warned you I was very bad with this!)  After much list making and cross checking I decided OK & WW retained Ice's magic regardless what was done to them.  They are and always were intended for use in the Battle for Dawn.  All that really happened was allowing at least one Lannister to claim some honor in this battle.  All in all, Tywin can do back flips in his grave.  The dumb ass meant to do a selfish thing that may end up helping saving everyone.  

You might be onto something though. Another irony would be, if Brienne were to behead Jaime on Lady Stoneheart's command (not saying she will, just a 'what if' since I think it's ooc for Brienne) then it would be with the smaller Ice that Tywin had reforged. What an effin twist  Congrats, Tywin, you played yourself. As sad as it would make me to see Jaime kick the bucket, I think I would actually laugh while reading it.

There's a theory I read about the magic of Ice, written by a mutual on tumblr. The theory is that Mott did indeed use magic when reforging Ice. And I think it was magical even before that. If you're interested!  It's actually a really great read imo.

[astarkchoice]

36 minutes ago, James Steller said:

That does make me wonder if Ned used Ice when he went to war. 

Naah its huge and hes mid sized....if hed lemt it to greatjon or son itd have been fun!

[astarkchoice]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Right.  I was just being a little sarcastic there mentioning the ceremonial bit.  Why even bring it up when nearly everyone uses theirs?  I will take a bit of exception with Longclaw, though, in the same light as Ice.  It surely didn't seem to be in use at all before Jon took possession of it.  Perhaps the northerners use their VS ceremonially traditionally? 

The old bear took it with him to use in battle not left behind which hints the northerners use theirs.

 

The real question would be why poor houses woulnt accept a.shitload of lannsiter gold

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

You might be onto something though. Another irony would be, if Brienne were to behead Jaime on Lady Stoneheart's command (not saying she will, just a 'what if' since I think it's ooc for Brienne) then it would be with the smaller Ice that Tywin had reforged. What an effin twist  Congrats, Tywin, you played yourself. As sad as it would make me to see Jaime kick the bucket, I think I would actually laugh while reading it.

There's a theory I read about the magic of Ice, written by a mutual on tumblr. The theory is that Mott did indeed use magic when reforging Ice. And I think it was magical even before that. If you're interested!  It's actually a really great read imo.

I thought Tywin giving what would become OK to Jamie sans his famous sword hand was one of the strangest moves Tywin ever made, honestly.  He put so much on his eldest son...to the point of nonsense.  That Jamie gives his Pop the old finger in giving the sword to Brienne was a great twist.  She won't use it to harm Jamie.  I hosted a topic a very long time ago examining Brienne's honor at Pennytree when someone noted that Brienne touches her sword upon meeting Jamie there.  This apparently is indicative of danger in some long forgotten literature.  I thought it was cool Brienne may have tipped Jamie off right then and there.  Maybe not, but still, I would like to think my Lady's honor is still intact despite her circumstances. 

Tobho Mott says he spoke spells during the reforging, but I am always up for a good magic read.  I will give it a try and thankee, Sai, for the recommendation.