Aegon V was an idiot for letting Bloodraven take Dark Sister

[James Steller]

Bloodraven was in prison, sentenced to death for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. I can sort of see why Aegon would allow Brynden to take the black, as well as have him be accompanied to the Wall by his Raven’s Teeth. But why would he allow Brynden to take Dark Sister? It was the last VS sword which House Targaryen had. It’s not like they were going to get it back when Brynden croaked. Why would Aegon let him take it with him to the North? 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

11 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Bloodraven was in prison, sentenced to death for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. I can sort of see why Aegon would allow Brynden to take the black, as well as have him be accompanied to the Wall by his Raven’s Teeth. But why would he allow Brynden to take Dark Sister? It was the last VS sword which House Targaryen had. It’s not like they were going to get it back when Brynden croaked. Why would Aegon let him take it with him to the North? 

I agree 100%

[Alester Florent]

25 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Bloodraven was in prison, sentenced to death for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. I can sort of see why Aegon would allow Brynden to take the black, as well as have him be accompanied to the Wall by his Raven’s Teeth. But why would he allow Brynden to take Dark Sister? It was the last VS sword which House Targaryen had. It’s not like they were going to get it back when Brynden croaked. Why would Aegon let him take it with him to the North? 

Maybe he was expecting to get it back when Bloodraven died.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Might have been twice an idiot and let Blackfyre go with him too.  I'm not sure that the official story of how and why BR went north should be taken entirely at face value.  I doubt BR was outmaneuvered by Egg and suspect he had already picked his 'punishment' before he earned it. The fact that he was able to bring at least Dark Sister with him plus his honor guard suggests that even though he was exiled, it was not in disgrace.

[James Steller]

17 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Might have been twice an idiot and let Blackfyre go with him too.  I'm not sure that the official story of how and why BR went north should be taken entirely at face value.  I doubt BR was outmaneuvered by Egg and suspect he had already picked his 'punishment' before he earned it. The fact that he was able to bring at least Dark Sister with him plus his honor guard suggests that even though he was exiled, it was not in disgrace.

I really hope you’re wrong. I hope that Bloodraven was absolutely outmaneuvered by Aegon, and did leave a hated disgrace. He was a repulsive man who committed one of the most blatantly devious murders in the series. He absolutely deserved to be executed, let alone go north with the last VS blade in House Targaryen’s possession

[Mourning Star]

How do we know Aegon allowed Bloodraven to take Darksister to the Wall?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

24 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

How do we know Aegon allowed Bloodraven to take Darksister to the Wall?

Apparently the author has said that he did, but it's nowhere in the text yet. Wiki cites a tweet which quotes the author

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

He was a repulsive man who committed one of the most blatantly devious murders in the series

Which one was that? (they're all so devious)

[James Steller]

8 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Which one was that? (they're all so devious)

Specifically I was referring to Aenys Blackfyre. Everything about his murder is repulsive to me. Basically like if the Red Wedding only had one victim, but still had all the dishonour and treachery.

[Curled Finger]

Actually, Martin answered the question Ashaya from History of Westeros asked a couple of years back.  It's all over the place, but you can hear it on their youtube channel, I have no doubt.  She asked if Bloodraven took Darksister to the Wall.  GRRM said yes.  

I am surprised this topic is up yet again.  Perhaps you are taking the story at face value?  Aren't most of the main villains in the story mostly grey?  Not the Vargos, but the Tyrions, Cerseis even Jamies?  Why wouldn't Bloodraven and Aegon be exactly like that?  Shaded areas we are supposed to infer motives?  

Bloodraven as we see him is basically on life support with mushrooms growing from his forehead and a root growing from his eye socket.   Is this frightening?  No, not particularly.  It is creepy and sad and desperate, but not frightening.  So why would this great Machiavellian spymaster and murderer end up this way?  The last greenseer--speaking through dreams and ravens and reanimated corpses and mute puppies?  Likely because he has and had a great powerful mind.  And a life full of sacrifice.

We know from the histories (don't bother, I know that's stupid) that BR studied magic and prophecy.  So did Septon Barth for crying out loud.  No one gives him crap.  Maybe because the good Septon wasn't a Targaryen himself...wasn't a bastard...didn't have to make bloody hard decisions in war time...was just a normal looking guy?  Aegon also studied magic and prophecy, for all the good that did him or anyone else.  Why?  Aegon wanted to make Westeros a better place for everyone, even the smallfolk.  He no doubt studied right alongside his uncle.  Targs are weird and like all families, complicated.  No doubt there was love and fear and respect between them. 

Yes, the execution was very bad and put and end to any more of this Blackfyre nonsense for a good long while, perhaps freeing Bloodraven to do what he really wanted which was going to The Wall to further investigate prophecy and magic.  He had to be having dreams and visions, just as Bran and Euron did.  He didn't take command of the Watch for a long time.  He earned his way to the top and disappeared on a ranging.  Just like Benjen.  I believe he followed his dreams and visions right into the cave like Bran and true to form gave the remainder of his life in service to a cause he believed in.  Right or wrong.  The guy is dedicated.  

 

[James Steller]

53 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 

We know from the histories (don't bother, I know that's stupid) that BR studied magic and prophecy.  So did Septon Barth for crying out loud.  No one gives him crap.  Maybe because the good Septon wasn't a Targaryen himself...wasn't a bastard...didn't have to make bloody hard decisions in war time...was just a normal looking guy?  Aegon also studied magic and prophecy, for all the good that did him or anyone else.  Why?  Aegon wanted to make Westeros a better place for everyone, even the smallfolk.  He no doubt studied right alongside his uncle.  Targs are weird and like all families, complicated.  No doubt there was love and fear and respect between them. 

 

First of all, I never said I hated Bloodraven for practising magic. I hate him for being a sinister Machiavellian who murdered Aenys Blackfyre for no justifiable reason. And I’ve gone over that stance before on this site, but I’ll happily do it again if you want.

Secondly, this whole prophecy angle is my least favourite part of GRRM’s universe. I hate the idea that some of the most selfish, repulsive, and outright villainous acts in these stories will be waved away and justified by this prophecy of how the Others will be defeated. It is a cheap storytelling move and it also is an uncomfortable exercise of the end justifying the means.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Might have been twice an idiot and let Blackfyre go with him too.  I'm not sure that the official story of how and why BR went north should be taken entirely at face value.  I doubt BR was outmaneuvered by Egg and suspect he had already picked his 'punishment' before he earned it. The fact that he was able to bring at least Dark Sister with him plus his honor guard suggests that even though he was exiled, it was not in disgrace.

The thing is, Bloodraven wasn't a traitor. He was the arch-loyalist, the ultimate king's man, and it's possible that nobody else ever did more to preserve and protect House Targaryen. Killing Aenys Blackfyre was a terrible thing to do, but arguably justifiable on the same grounds as Jaime's killing of Aerys: sacrificing the life of one man and the honour of another to save the realm - and certainly this is how BR would have defended it.

His offence was to breach safe conduct (not, strictly guest right, as Aenys was immediately arrested so wouldn't have been given bread and salt), but it's debatable to what extent this is actually legally a crime. The king can give and retract safe conduct and BR was Hand and presumably regent at the time, so had authority to act in the king's name. It's obviously a horrendous breach of custom, but in Westeros's rather primitive legal system, his action was horrifying but something he was probably legally entitled to do. 

What Aegon was really concerned about was cleansing the crown's reputation rather than actually punishing a crime.

Sending him to the Wall was therefore forcibly retiring Bloodraven more than anything else to make clear he was disavowing the action. But BR has always been and remains a loyal servant of the crown so he's permitted to retire with some dignity, hence the honour guard and so on, so why wouldn't you let him keep the sword he's carried longer than anyone else, at least for the rest of his life?

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Bloodraven as we see him is basically on life support with mushrooms growing from his forehead and a root growing from his eye socket.   Is this frightening?  No, not particularly.  It is creepy and sad and desperate, but not frightening.  So why would this great Machiavellian spymaster and murderer end up this way?  The last greenseer--speaking through dreams and ravens and reanimated corpses and mute puppies?  Likely because he has and had a great powerful mind.  And a life full of sacrifice.

Yes, it's literally described as frightening!

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

I don't believe Bloodraven was the Three Eyed Crow from Bran's dreams, I think he was the brooding Weirwood.

I think Bloodraven intends to try and take Bran's body, because as we learned from Varamyr the powers stay with the body when one skinshifts.

I think Bloodraven called the great council which ended up choosing Egg, with the intent of being named king himself, after all he was legitimized along with the rest of the Great Bastards.

The old man heard him. Though Aemon's eyes had dimmed and gone dark, there was nothing wrong with his ears. "I was not born blind," he reminded them. "When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."
"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

Dunk was sent to make sure that Bloodraven did not escape like Bittersteal had.

[Mourning Star]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The thing is, Bloodraven wasn't a traitor. He was the arch-loyalist, the ultimate king's man, and it's possible that nobody else ever did more to preserve and protect House Targaryen.

I don't believe this.

Look at how many Targaryens died under suspicious circumstances during Bloodraven's time.

You don't get the the 4th son of a 4th son by ultimate preservation of a house!

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, James Steller said:

First of all, I never said I hated Bloodraven for practising magic. I hate him for being a sinister Machiavellian who murdered Aenys Blackfyre for no justifiable reason. And I’ve gone over that stance before on this site, but I’ll happily do it again if you want.

Secondly, this whole prophecy angle is my least favourite part of GRRM’s universe. I hate the idea that some of the most selfish, repulsive, and outright villainous acts in these stories will be waved away and justified by this prophecy of how the Others will be defeated. It is a cheap storytelling move and it also is an uncomfortable exercise of the end justifying the means.

Um, James? That's sort of the point of the story.  All these horrible deeds will be waved away and justified by this prophecy or at least the characters' understanding of the prophecy.  The best part of the prophecy is that it will likely all be a huge misunderstanding.  It's irony.  Irony is really hard to hate on a scale this big.  

For all it's worth, I hate prophecy, too.  However, I can't deny the old guy hooked up to a tree living beyond a normal life span pretty much in his head.  He's got a powerful mind and this is something.  What I can't be certain, but I think it's probably a very good thing.  Possibly a vital thing.  Possibly a thing only a man with his strength of mind could do.  Can you meet me that far?  

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't believe this.

Look at how many Targaryens died under suspicious circumstances during Bloodraven's time.

You don't get the the 4th son of a 4th son by ultimate preservation of a house!

Depends what you call "suspicious circumstances". Almost any death can be deemed suspicious if one is so minded, and while a lot of Targs did die during this period, we have credible explanations for almost all of them.

We'll have to wait for B&F to get all the details of this, I think. But once Baelor and his sons were gone, many of the next in line did look pretty frightful. If BR was involved in pruning the family tree, it's not hard to argue that eliminating Rhaegel and Aerion - and perhaps Daeron (son of Maekar) was for the good of the realm, and indeed the dynasty.

[Darth Sidious]

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

Bloodraven was in prison, sentenced to death for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. I can sort of see why Aegon would allow Brynden to take the black, as well as have him be accompanied to the Wall by his Raven’s Teeth. But why would he allow Brynden to take Dark Sister? It was the last VS sword which House Targaryen had. It’s not like they were going to get it back when Brynden croaked. Why would Aegon let him take it with him to the North? 
 

Bloodraven helped Dunk and Aegon at the traitor’s tourney at Whitewalls.  Bloodraven saved the Targaryen hold on the throne.  Perhaps It was the politically sensitive decision to let him keep the sword.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes, it's literally described as frightening!

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

I don't believe Bloodraven was the Three Eyed Crow from Bran's dreams, I think he was the brooding Weirwood.

I think Bloodraven intends to try and take Bran's body, because as we learned from Varamyr the powers stay with the body when one skinshifts.

I think Bloodraven called the great council which ended up choosing Egg, with the intent of being named king himself, after all he was legitimized along with the rest of the Great Bastards.

The old man heard him. Though Aemon's eyes had dimmed and gone dark, there was nothing wrong with his ears. "I was not born blind," he reminded them. "When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."
"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

Dunk was sent to make sure that Bloodraven did not escape like Bittersteal had.

I appreciate the text, Mourning Star and the correction.  Perhaps if I was a little boy I would find that frightening.  Perhaps if I saw this in real life I would find it really frightening.  In the here and now I will stand by creepy, sad and desperate.   This comes from a different understanding than your own of the reading.  I don't find Bloodraven to be this malevolent bodysnatching entity you do.  Just as I read the passage you offered and don't see any indication Dunk was sent to ensure that Bloodraven didn't escape.  

My lack of agreement doesn't make you wrong nor my understanding incomplete.  That is the beauty of the tale.  I am a glass half full sorta guy.  Bloodraven was a loyal servant and soldier in life.  He made hard decisions and sacrifices.  He was always a magical being.  Because of this it makes perfect sense to me that he would take on a greater responsibility in trying to save the entire world instead of a simple dynasty.  

I have learned much from you over the years.  I am dubious about Bloodraven taking Bran's body.  Unless there is some way he can save the entire world by doing it.   

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

23 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't believe this.

Look at how many Targaryens died under suspicious circumstances during Bloodraven's time.

You don't get the the 4th son of a 4th son by ultimate preservation of a house!

He's loyal to the family, not the specific members of the family. He's taken an arborist's approach to various branches of his family tree.  Aegon V was the branch he deemed most sound.

[Mourning Star]

9 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Depends what you call "suspicious circumstances". Almost any death can be deemed suspicious if one is so minded, and while a lot of Targs did die during this period, we have credible explanations for almost all of them.

We could go through the whole family tree, but I'll start with the ones called out in the text.

"How can the truth be treason?" asked Kyle the Cat. "In King Daeron's day, a man did not have to fear to speak his mind, but now?" He made a rude noise. "Bloodraven put King Aerys on the Iron Throne, but for how long? Aerys is weak, and when he dies, it will be bloody war between Lord Rivers and Prince Maekar for the crown, the Hand against the heir."
"You have forgotten Prince Rhaegel, my friend," Ser Maynard objected, in a mild tone. "He comes next in line to Aerys, not Maekar, and his children after him."
"Rhaegel is feeble-minded. Why, I bear him no ill will, but the man is good as dead, and those twins of his as well, though whether they will die of Maekar's mace or Bloodraven's spells…" Seven save us, Dunk thought as Egg spoke up shrill and loud. "Prince Maekar is Prince Rhaegel's brother. He loves him well. He'd never do harm to him or his."

Rhaegel died in 215 AC, whilst choking on a lamprey pie.

Aelor died in 217 AC at the hand of Aelora through a mishap, which left her mad with grief.

Some time later, Aelora took her own life after being attacked at a ball by three men known as the Rat, the Hawk and the Pig

9 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

We'll have to wait for B&F to get all the details of this, I think. But once Baelor and his sons were gone, many of the next in line did look pretty frightful. If BR was involved in pruning the family tree, it's not hard to argue that eliminating Rhaegel and Aerion - and perhaps Daeron (son of Maekar) was for the good of the realm, and indeed the dynasty.

This is some grand villain behind it all logic, and kind of what I imagine.

He almost certainly has some self justification for his actions, that doesn't make it not evil.

If you came away from reading this series and went, you know what, the ends do justify the means! I think you have missed the forest for the trees.