How do you solve a riddle like Septa Lemore?

[Sandy Clegg]

Sorry, you won't find any answers to who Septa Lemore 'secretly is' in this post. For all I know she could be Hot Pie's second cousin once removed. (Although if it turns out she is, then obviously I get full credit). 

No, the object here is to look at the meta riddle that she poses. Because while her past may be hidden to us, who she is meant to symbolise is something we can certainly try to identify. To do this we're going to hold true to that often-repeated idea: that George lays out his clues in sets of three, with their meaning getting somewhat clearer in each iteration.

With AFFC and ADWD divided geographically, certain characters had to be sadly entirely absent from one book or the other. However, I believe George managed to find ways to make sure we don't feel their absence too much, by sneaking them into the books even when they aren't there.  He achieves this by employing symbolic proxies: characters who have their own part to play in the normal story, but occasionally lead a 'double symbolic life'. This way key characters aren't entirely left out, and we  possibly may even get hints of foreshadowing.

Septa Lemore is one such character, so let's look at clue number one. I'll reveal who she symbolises at the end, so that you can play along. 

1) She spends a lot of time in the water, and appears to have given birth:

Quote

The dwarf watched Lemore slip into the water. The sight always made him hard. There was something wonderfully wicked about the thought of peeling the septa out of those chaste white robes and spreading her legs. Innocence despoiled, he thought … though Lemore was not near as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth. - ADWD, Tyrion IV

2) She hangs a crystal gemstone between her breasts.

Quote

As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

The image is followed with a smile. Actually, I have a theory that George will often pair up 'clues' in the text with references to smiling. This goes right back to the prologue in AGOT, when Ser Waymar asks Gared: "Do the dead frighten you?" .... with just the hint of a smile. This in itself was not a clue (unless you've got other ideas). But ever since then, if you look out for the smiles you'll likely stumble onto a hint about something. 

3) One scene shows her with a quiet, breathy voice:

Quote

Septa Lemore was praying. The mists muffled the sound of her voice, making it seem small and hushed. 

In summary, we have a female character who exhibits, at one time or another, the following:

• spending significant time in the water 
• has given birth
• wears a stone next to her heart
• has a whispery voice

So who has George smuggled into the book? Click to reveal all:

Spoiler

Yep, the one and only former Lady Catelyn Stark, now more commonly known as Lady Stoneheart. But I'm sure you got that already ...

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[three-eyed monkey]

Nice, @Sandy Clegg I like it.

I think you could take it a step further. If you see a symbolic link between Lemore and Stoneheart then what is the connection? I would say that the connection is vengeance. That's what Lady Stoneheart is all about. So I'd say the symbolic link tells us that Septa Lemore, or should I say Lady Lemore, is someone who is on a mission of vengeance.

Putting Rhaegar's son, as Connington and Lemore believe Young Griff to be, on the Iron Throne could be a mission of justice or on the other hand it could be one of vengeance. And while Connington is really seeking some form of redemption, I think this tells us that Lemore is in it for the vengeance.

Personally, I'm in the Ashara Dayne camp, mainly because that makes most sense to me, but I know someone will counter with "Tyrion would have mentioned her haunting purple eyes if it was Ashara," and I get that objection, even if it doesn't persuade me.

[BalerionTheCat]

Nice. But I think it's stretching more than GRRM planned.

And yes, she has stakes in this enterprise. Revenge quite possibly. Maybe the daughter of someone of the GC. She doesn't have to be someone we know by another name or story... Even if her past is intriguing and we want to know more.

Edited March 19, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Nice. But I think it's stretching more than GRRM planned.

Actually I'd say it doesn't stretch far enough. The books are entirely full of these kinds of mirrorings, if you keep an eye out . This is a relatively minor example. George wants us to play with the books, not just read them.

[Castellan]

I don't have a rival interpretation or hope to, but these are my first impressions and vague thoughts:

Ashara Dayne would have stretch marks, has born a child (perhaps stillborn) and she could be said to have slipped into the water (jumped off a cliff into the sea).

I don't think 'crystal' has the same connotations as stone - its pretty, translucent, somewhat magical looking, and while snuggling it between her breasts may technically mean its near her heart I think other associations are being raised.

So, no I don't see Lady S. floating around here.

I do see older women who were once maids and have been transformed by life. Lemore seems to have actively remade herself, if she really is a Septa. She seems to be more happily transformed. Her goal may in fact be vengeance though, and her apparently calm mindset may crumble once the battle for Westeros starts.So she does have points in common with Catelyn.

So maybe she is substituting for Catelyn in the sense that she is the compulsary older angry female flavour in ADWD, at least in Tyrion's POVs. GRRM does have recurring types and themes.

By the way, i was inspired to reread some chapters with Tyrion on the Rhoyne and noticed that he plays a game of chyvasse with Haldon and asks to play for secrets. Haldon says 'Griff would kill me" or something like that but agrees anyway. We later learn that Tyrion has won. Has there been any speculation on what information he asked for?

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

Has there been any speculation on what information he asked for?

IIRC, he knows about Aegon right after. So whatever Haldon said was enough for Tyrion.

[Sandy Clegg]

12 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think you could take it a step further. If you see a symbolic link between Lemore and Stoneheart then what is the connection? I would say that the connection is vengeance. That's what Lady Stoneheart is all about. So I'd say the symbolic link tells us that Septa Lemore, or should I say Lady Lemore, is someone who is on a mission of vengeance.

Sure, Illyrio's plan could well be heavily motivated by vengeance, and Lemore is a part of it so it's not a huge leap.

Personally, I kind of want to leave the more thematic symbolism alone, or rather let others explore it for now. There are people on this forum far, far better equipped than me to analyse these aspects. For me, the exciting thing is being able to examine ways in which George is able to use language to play with the readers, to see how deep his game goes.

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

Ashara Dayne would have stretch marks, has born a child (perhaps stillborn) and she could be said to have slipped into the water (jumped off a cliff into the sea).

The problem with Ashara Dayne is that she isn't really a character we've met yet in the story so we know very little about her apart from second-hand sources. I'd say these points above might relate more to theories about who she is in-universe, which I don't have really an opinion about, unless there's an argument to made for her being a kind of Maiden-Mother-and-Crone archetype.  Lemore, Ashara & Cat all in one?

But we also need to consider the delicious irony that it is Tyrion who has all these lustful thoughts about Lemore, considering his troubled relationship with Catelyn in the story. Reading Lemore as a Catalyn stand-in adds all kinds of layers of perversion, as he 'gets hard' when he slips into the water. Are his feelings about her vengeful, or lustful? It feels like these two emotions often exist side-by-side in Tyrion's mind, so I kind of like this added nuance.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

I don't think 'crystal' has the same connotations as stone - its pretty, translucent, somewhat magical looking, and while snuggling it between her breasts may technically mean its near her heart I think other associations are being raised.

Connotations are not necessarily relevant in wordplay. A crystal = a mineral = a stone. If it's a good enough synonym to be used in a crossword, then it should be good enough for George. Also, I don't think we should expect him to be anything other than subtle in his games. He's on the record as saying as much himself.  So unless you want a character to hang a literal stone or pebble between their breasts, then this is the most plausible in-world representation of having a character with a 'stone' near their 'heart'.

I suspect the deeper issue here is a refusal to see that a game is in fact being played between author and reader.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[sweetsunray]

I think the solution is her role from Arianne's POV. Arianne travels from Dorne to meet with JonCon and this alleged cousin Aegon (son of her aunt Elia). Her assignment is to determine whether Aegon is truly who JonCon claims him to be, and if so she is to decide and send a bird back to her father to signal "dragon" and the Dornish armies will be raised to join Aegon.

This poses the fundamental issue: how the hell could anyone provide evidence to Arianne that Aegon is her cousin? This is quite impossble, and yet her reasonable doubt must be removed somehow. And I think this can only be done by someone she personally knows and trusts. Arianne will solely be convinced if such a person asserts to Arianne it's all true.

In the two sample chapters she meets several of men of the Golden Company and Aegon's company of the Shy Maid. There's Lysono Maar (the lyseni) and Haldon the Halfmaester. Haldon is the last one she meets before she's put on a ship to Storm's End to meet with Aegon. None of their assertions convince her. She doesn't know JonCon and Aegon himself cannot convince her either directly imo. And to further complicate things, I suspect both JonCon and Aegon will not be there to welcome her arrival, but in the field fighting their battles.

That only leaves Septa Lemore. And I suspect she is the person Arianne knows and whom she will trust implicitly.

Now some people may regard Ashara Dayne as someone that Arianne could believe, but there is no hint in Arianne's POV that points to Arianne having known Ashara personally. And Gerold Dayne's actions may actually have roused Arianne's suspicions against any Dayne's assertions. For both these reasons I rule out Lemore being Ashara (on top of the "she's dead" and "no purple eyes mentioned for Lemore")

We do however know that Arianne trusts the Sandsnakes and Ellaria Sand. The Sandsnake Arianne is closest to is Tyene Sand. Her mother was a septa from the Reach. And Arianne has met Tyene's mother, on a journey with Oberyn, Tyene and Sarella. I think Varys recruited this soiled septa. There's one major caveat - Tyene has blonde hair, and Oberyn's was dark. As a consequence Tyene's mother must have been blonde, but Lemore isn't and she swims a lot. Nevertheless it's possible Lemore dyes her hair. It's not an insurmountable problem imo.

[Sandy Clegg]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think the solution is her role from Arianne's POV. Arianne travels from Dorne to meet with JonCon and this alleged cousin Aegon (son of her aunt Elia). Her assignment is to determine whether Aegon is truly who JonCon claims him to be, and if so she is to decide and send a bird back to her father to signal "dragon" and the Dornish armies will be raised to join Aegon.

Hi @sweetsunray these are all great points and I love all your theories, but my OP wasn't really trying to dig into her actual in-universe identity.  

I was just trying to dig into an example of the "games-within-the-text" that George plays with readers. Maybe I need to do a separate post to articulate what I'm trying to do here - but essentially I sense that a big part of the books that gets overlooked is their function as 'interactive fiction'. There's a whole lot of fun to be had  - that I think George intends us to have - by reading the books slightly differently, and I want to encourage others to find these fun aspects too.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Hi @sweetsunray these are all great points and I love all your theories, but my OP wasn't really trying to dig into her actual in-universe identity.  

I was just trying to dig into an example of the "games-within-the-text" that George plays with readers. Maybe I need to do a separate post to articulate what I'm trying to do here - but essentially I sense that a big part of the books that gets overlooked is their function as 'interactive fiction'. There's a whole lot of fun to be had  - that I think George intends us to have - by reading the books slightly differently, and I want to encourage others to find these fun aspects too.

Sorry, my bad.

[Sandy Clegg]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sorry, my bad.

It's all good. In 99/100 threads with the name Lemore in the title you'd be absolutely right. I'm just an oddball trying to get people to join him in his journey of insanity 

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Sure, Illyrio's plan could well be heavily motivated by vengeance, and Lemore is a part of it so it's not a huge leap.

I don't see the whole plan as being motivated by vengeance. Varys and Illyrio are probably only in it for their own gain. Connington probably sees it as a mission of justice, to redress the crimes of the usurper, while at the same time a vehicle to his own redemption for failing his silver prince during the rebellion. I think the symbolism you found tells us that Lemore, whom ever she may be, is motivated by vengeance.

I shouldn't have even mentioned Ashara, because I knew that's not where you were going with this. Sorry about that.

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Personally, I kind of want to leave the more thematic symbolism alone, or rather let others explore it for now. There are people on this forum far, far better equipped than me to analyse these aspects. For me, the exciting thing is being able to examine ways in which George is able to use language to play with the readers, to see how deep his game goes.

I'm definitely one of the people who believe his game goes deep. Very deep.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Varys and Illyrio are probably only in it for their own gain.

Varys has Pycelle and Kevan murdered reminiscint of the Pisswater Prince/Aegon and Rhaenys. Pycelle's skull is bashed in and Varys' little birds stab Kevan multiple times. I would say there is a revenge element with Varys too.

[Sandy Clegg]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Varys has Pycelle and Kevan murdered reminiscint of the Pisswater Prince/Aegon and Rhaenys. Pycelle's skull is bashed in and Varys' little birds stab Kevan multiple times. I would say there is a revenge element with Varys too.

With all the history of the Blackfyre's I'd say vengeance is certainly somewhere 'in the mix' in their motivations, sure. Lemore herself seems kind of chill, though. I don't get any strong thematic vibes from her, revenge or otherwise. Maybe  as my read-through continues. 

[three-eyed monkey]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Varys has Pycelle and Kevan murdered reminiscint of the Pisswater Prince/Aegon and Rhaenys. Pycelle's skull is bashed in and Varys' little birds stab Kevan multiple times. I would say there is a revenge element with Varys too.

I believe Varys when he said he had no ill will towards Kevan and it was not done of malice. Kevan was attempting to steady the ship in King's Landing so he simply had to go. Varys wants division and mistrust to eat the ground beneath Tommen's rule while Aegon raises his banner. It seems like a logical strategy for Varys, so it makes perfect sense as a motive for Varys.

In my opinion, Varys and Illyrio are simply confidence tricksters, but that's another topic.

[Frey family reunion]

@Sandy Clegg

Nice.  Certainly interesting parallels.  I'd add one more.  Septa Lemore's goal is to crown Young Griff.  When we last see Lady Stoneheart she is caressing Robb's crown.  Now she obviously can't put Robb on the throne in the North, but I do wonder if she ends up trying to crown her oldest daughter.

Or perhaps her youngest son if they're ever reunited.  That might be a closer parallel to "Aegon" two characters allegedly back after Westeros believed they died.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 AM, Castellan said:

Ashara Dayne would have stretch marks, has born a child (perhaps stillborn) and she could be said to have slipped into the water (jumped off a cliff into the sea).

Apart from the issue of eye color, something you think Tyrion would have noticed, there's one more issue.  Varys tells Kevan that "Aegon" was raised and taught by a Septa.  No particular reason for Varys to lie to Kevan about that, so it's unliukely that Lemore is just someone pretending to be a Septa.  She's probably actually a septa, or was a septa.  And we don't have any particular reason to believe that Ashara was or became a Septa.  

Edited March 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

accidental repost

Edited March 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion