Jump to content

How do you solve a riddle like Septa Lemore?

Recommended Posts

42 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I believe Varys when he said he had no ill will towards Kevan and it was not done of malice. Kevan was attempting to steady the ship in King's Landing so he simply had to go. Varys wants division and mistrust to eat the ground beneath Tommen's rule while Aegon raises his banner. It seems like a logical strategy for Varys, so it makes perfect sense as a motive for Varys.

In my opinion, Varys and Illyrio are simply confidence tricksters, but that's another topic.

I believe so too. I think he wanted to skewer Tywin in this way instead. Kevan was the necessary stand in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/19/2023 at 5:35 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Connotations are not necessarily relevant in wordplay. A crystal = a mineral = a stone. If it's a good enough synonym to be used in a crossword, then it should be good enough for George. Also, I don't think we should expect him to be anything other than subtle in his games. He's on the record as saying as much himself.  So unless you want a character to hang a literal stone or pebble between their breasts, then this is the most plausible in-world representation of having a character with a 'stone' near their 'heart'.

I suspect the deeper issue here is a refusal to see that a game is in fact being played between author and reader.

100% agree this story is a game between the author and reader. Btw very good eye! It didn’t occur to me that Lady Stoneheart mirrors Lemore, but it goes well with what I think happened (Lemore’s child was killed instead of Elia’s, just my personal theory). I think this quote really goes the Stoneheart mirroring: 

Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Kind of unrelated but I was also thinking of a connection between Gilly and Septa Lemore. With the crew of the Shy Maid mirroring the crew of the Cinnamon Wind (Griff being Sam, Tyrion as Daeron, Haldon as Maester Aemon, Aemon (baby) is Aegon, Ysilla, yandry, and Duck being the captain, captain’s mate and daughter).


Edited by Crona
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

@Sandy Clegg

Nice.  Certainly interesting parallels.  I'd add one more.  Septa Lemore's goal is to crown Young Griff.  When we last see Lady Stoneheart she is caressing Robb's crown.  Now she obviously can't put Robb on the throne in the North, but I do wonder if she ends up trying to crown her oldest daughter.

Or perhaps her youngest son if they're ever reunited.  That might be a closer parallel to "Aegon" two characters allegedly back after Westeros believed they died.

That's a good point, FFR. I think I like Rickon for this - he is one of the dark horses of the series, and although he's very, very young this doesn't mean he can't exhibit agency through warg powers, for example. This is what I like about these symbolic proxies. All sorts of hitherto unexamined links and foreshadowings can come into play once we see Lemore as a LH stand-in.

I'm struggling to get anywhere with the ones hidden in Quentyn's chapters, though. I can spot them, but I'm damned if I can work them out. As the books progress, George seems to bury the links a little deeper than before. Just like any game, there's a ramp up in the difficulty. Might need to crowd-source some help! :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

“How do you solve the problem of Ashara.”

Do that, and you have the key to Lemore. She’s had a baby. Her age puts her of the same age. 

OK, here's an attempt to appease all the folks on this thread. There is some nice thematic weaving here if Lemore is at the same time:

a) a symbolic Catelyn (post-death)


b) the actual Ashara Dayne, living a new life in Essos

Ashara was essentially Catelyn's only rival for Ned's affections, or so she believed. The 'other woman' in his life. Having Lemore represent them both is a sweet moment  of poetry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say that she's more a symbolic Elia, what being the motherly figure in Elia's sons life. Though it makes sense to symbolize Aegon's maternal-figure as analogue to the Stark's maternal figure. But the Dornish and the Rhoynar are more associated with water in my mind, and the stone heart Stoneheart thing seems like a stretch. 

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Do that, and you have the key to Lemore. She’s had a baby. Her age puts her of the same age. 

If Lemore is Ashara, the Elia parallels obviously make much more sense, and the random comments from Barristan about Ashara being hotter than Elia might also make sense. But maternal-figure Lemore and maternal-figure Catelyn are still in symbolic conversation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Create New...