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Self-Sacrifice is the only True Sacrifice


Craving Peaches
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I think this is a major theme the books are trying to get at. Now I am not saying sacrificing other people doesn't 'work' in the sense of producing an effect, it clearly does, but I think it could be more of a 'short-term gain, long-term loss' type situation in terms of incoming divine/karmic punishment (see the Valyrians) and it wouldn't be applicable to solving the major incoming problems like the Long Night. Many people have said this before but Azor Ahai doesn't sound like such a good guy sacrificing his wife, and I think one of the things we are supposed to think about is whether the sacrifice of an innocent for the 'greater good' is really justifiable in the sense of it being necessary (I don't think it is).

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" . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.

And supposedly the more valuable the sacrifice is to the sacrificer, the greater the effect it has. One's own life must be up there in terms of how valuable it is to them (usually). Also, it would make sense that self-sacrifice was needed so people don't have an easy 'get out of jail' card against the Others. I also think a willing sacrifice might be more powereful but that is a discussion for later.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think this is a major theme the books are trying to get at. Now I am not saying sacrificing other people doesn't 'work' in the sense of producing an effect, it clearly does, but I think it could be more of a 'short-term gain, long-term loss' type situation in terms of incoming divine/karmic punishment (see the Valyrians) and it wouldn't be applicable to solving the major incoming problems like the Long Night. Many people have said this before but Azor Ahai doesn't sound like such a good guy sacrificing his wife, and I think one of the things we are supposed to think about is whether the sacrifice of an innocent for the 'greater good' is really justifiable in the sense of it being necessary (I don't think it is).

And supposedly the more valuable the sacrifice is to the sacrificer, the greater the effect it has. One's own life must be up there in terms of how valuable it is to them (usually). Also, it would make sense that self-sacrifice was needed so people don't have an easy 'get out of jail' card against the Others. I also think a willing sacrifice might be more powereful but that is a discussion for later.

Exactly! And this! This! This!

:agree:

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think this is a major theme the books are trying to get at. Now I am not saying sacrificing other people doesn't 'work' in the sense of producing an effect, it clearly does, but I think it could be more of a 'short-term gain, long-term loss' type situation in terms of incoming divine/karmic punishment (see the Valyrians) and it wouldn't be applicable to solving the major incoming problems like the Long Night. Many people have said this before but Azor Ahai doesn't sound like such a good guy sacrificing his wife, and I think one of the things we are supposed to think about is whether the sacrifice of an innocent for the 'greater good' is really justifiable in the sense of it being necessary (I don't think it is).

And supposedly the more valuable the sacrifice is to the sacrificer, the greater the effect it has. One's own life must be up there in terms of how valuable it is to them (usually). Also, it would make sense that self-sacrifice was needed so people don't have an easy 'get out of jail' card against the Others. I also think a willing sacrifice might be more powereful but that is a discussion for later.

Yes, for all Stannis’ agonising about Edric Storm, burning him alive would cost him nothing, and would delight Selyse.

Self-sacrifice OTOH, is a noble thing.  Stepping onto a pyre, oneself, in an effort to save others, would be an act of very great heroism.

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Hrm, I flashed upon Jon convincing Ned to allow the kids to have the puppies without a thought for himself.  The direwolf is the sigil of your house.  Jon doesn't get particularly woo woo beyond this chapter where he later hears Ghost, a mute albino pup.  Ghost is the immediate reward for Jon's selflessness and that's sweet and I think the very 1st inclination that the OP is absolutely correct.    I realize that's not the great grave self sacrificing thing the OP was getting to, but an awfully nice little introduction to it.  

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I do not think that GRRM wants to obviously take a side, he presents both sides of the argument and lets us decide.

Obviously, sacrificing someone else is EVIL, but is it worth it if it saves the world or achieves our goals for the 'greater good'? Was the bombing of Dresden or dropping atomic bombs on Japan justified? How do we ascertain that sacrificing a certain someone will really save the world?

Are you be willing to become a villain if it works? Because for selfless people, sacrificing someone else is HARDER than sacrificing yourself, so probably the 'power' of the sacrifice is also bigger.

 

Personally, think the burning of Edric is more clear-cut case. Stannis is not contemplating doing it to defend the world from the Others (after all, he is not convinced that he is AA at this point), but to take back his throne and have vengeance on his enemies who defeated him. Sacrificing an innocent child (your nephew, nothing less) in a cruel manner for your personal gain is wrong, even if you feel it is your duty to become King.

 

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4 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I do not think that GRRM wants to obviously take a side, he presents both sides of the argument and lets us decide.

Obviously, sacrificing someone else is EVIL, but is it worth it if it saves the world or achieves our goals for the 'greater good'? Was the bombing of Dresden or dropping atomic bombs on Japan justified? How do we ascertain that sacrificing a certain someone will really save the world?

Are you be willing to become a villain if it works? Because for selfless people, sacrificing someone else is HARDER than sacrificing yourself, so probably the 'power' of the sacrifice is also bigger.

 

Personally, think the burning of Edric is more clear-cut case. Stannis is not contemplating doing it to defend the world from the Others (after all, he is not convinced that he is AA at this point), but to take back his throne and have vengeance on his enemies who defeated him. Sacrificing an innocent child (your nephew, nothing less) in a cruel manner for your personal gain is wrong, even if you feel it is your duty to become King.

 

The issue is, do I impose upon others, a choice I would not make for myself?

Kings have to make hard choices.  But, it’s easy to say “Some of you are going to die.  That is a sacrifice I am willing to make.”

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This is a major theme in the story. Only death can pay for life, is one of the recurring lines that demonstrates this concept is important to the story.

The thing about themes is that's where the author of a story makes their point. So while GRRM does lay out both sides of the argument, which is how we explore the theme, the characters must then choose a side. The characters that choose one side of the argument will find salvation, while the characters who choose the other side of the argument will find destruction. This is how authors prove which side of the argument is true, making their point through the story itself.

So the larger point here is that change requires sacrifice, and anyone who has ever made a positive change in their lives knows how tough that can often be. But this leads to the question of what is meant by sacrifice?

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Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady."

Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."

 

Melisandre explains what true sacrifice is, but there is a clear flaw in her logic.

Azor Ahai sacrificed his own beloved wife we are told. This is compared to a man who offers the only cow he owns, but a man cannot truly own the life of another. Nissa Nissa's life was not his to sacrifice.

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"A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife," Ygritte told him, "but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother."

Azor Ahai certainly owned a blade, but he did not own Nissa Nissa. He may use the knife to force submission, like slavers do, but that does not change the fact that the only life anyone truly possesses is their own. That is the key.

Septon Meribald expands on the point, using the silent sisters as an example.

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"The silent sisters never speak," said Podrick. "I heard they don't have any tongues."

Septon Meribald smiled. "Mothers have been cowing their daughters with that tale since I was your age. There was no truth to it then and there is none now. A vow of silence is an act of contrition, a sacrifice by which we prove our devotion to the Seven Above. For a mute to take a vow of silence would be akin to a legless man giving up the dance."

 

You can only sacrifice what you possess. A vow of silence is no true sacrifice for a mute, no more than giving up the dance is for a legless man. The only life you can truly sacrifice is the one you possess, which is your own.

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"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart.”

Why she did it, Salladhor Saan could not say. Of course not, he is a pirate and a sellsail. He is not committed to the cause of Stannis or any cause but his own. The concept of self-sacrifice is beyond him.

The hero of the Lightbringer legend is not Azor Ahai. The true hero of the story is actually Nissa Nissa, who bore her breast willingly. Nissa Nissa understood that true change requires true sacrifice, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice.

When Stannis burns Shireen in an attempt to wake dragons from stone, he will choose the side of the argument that leads to his destruction. Like his glamoured sword, his understanding of true sacrifice is but a false light that will only lead the realm further into darkness.

On the other hand, characters who learn to understand that self-sacrifice is the only true sacrifice will find salvation because true sacrifice will bring the change that is needed for the realm to survive.

Edited by three-eyed monkey
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23 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Was the bombing of Dresden

I don't want to derail the thread or get into a big debate or anything but there was absolutely no need to bomb Dresden. The city only had cultural significance and was not an important military target. It was a revenge bombing for Coventry.

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23 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I do not think that GRRM wants to obviously take a side, he presents both sides of the argument and lets us decide.

Obviously, sacrificing someone else is EVIL, but is it worth it if it saves the world or achieves our goals for the 'greater good'? Was the bombing of Dresden or dropping atomic bombs on Japan justified? How do we ascertain that sacrificing a certain someone will really save the world?

Are you be willing to become a villain if it works? Because for selfless people, sacrificing someone else is HARDER than sacrificing yourself, so probably the 'power' of the sacrifice is also bigger.

 

Personally, think the burning of Edric is more clear-cut case. Stannis is not contemplating doing it to defend the world from the Others (after all, he is not convinced that he is AA at this point), but to take back his throne and have vengeance on his enemies who defeated him. Sacrificing an innocent child (your nephew, nothing less) in a cruel manner for your personal gain is wrong, even if you feel it is your duty to become King.

 

Any leader has to be willing to sacrifice people in war.  Men died in Robb’s feint, in order to achieve victory.

The O/P describes a different kind of sacrifice.

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On 3/24/2023 at 12:57 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Now I am not saying sacrificing other people doesn't 'work' in the sense of producing an effect, it clearly does

Does human sacrifice ever work in producing an effect? I might have missed something, but I don't remember it ever working (in that the human sacrifice caused something to occur). 

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13 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I might have missed something, but I don't remember it ever working (in that the human sacrifice caused something to occur). 

I think when poor Alester Florent is burned alive it produces a good wind for the ships. I mean that could have been just Melisandre foreseeing there would be a good wind and burning him alive as an offering anyway, but...

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12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think when poor Alester Florent is burned alive it produces a good wind for the ships. I mean that could have been just Melisandre foreseeing there would be a good wind and burning him alive as an offering anyway, but...

Yeah I think Mel just foresees stuff in the flames and then tries to attribute them to her power, like burning the leeches after forseeing the deaths of the three kings, and then claiming it was down to the leeches.

Drogo's funeral pyre is not so straight forward. We could certainly argue that the deaths of Drogo and Rhaego and/or the burning of Mirri were part of the death pays for life equation with the dragons. If I recall correctly, GRRM said this was a once-off miraculous event, but that might have been in reference to Dany surviving the blaze? Either way, miraculous events muddy the waters of logic. I still lean towards the idea that the deaths payed for the lives of the dragons. This is because I feel that sacrificing others can bring power. As @SeanF said above, kings sacrifice men all the time in war to achieve victory.

There is a theme running through the series that measures the cost of the Iron Throne in the lives of children. The death of Elia's children. Cersei eliminating Robert's bastards. Dany's army of Unsullied, each one costing the life of a child (not to mention a strangled puppy). Stannis asking what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom? The game of thrones costs lives, and the players sacrifice pawns all the time to win. So the sacrifice of others can help you win the throne, but the question is, can it help you save the kingdom?

I would say the answer to that question is no. Azor Ahai sacrificed a captured lion, probably symbolic of a king or a kingsblood sacrifice, but it did not work. Nissa Nissa bore her breast willingly and it did work. Saving the kingdom requires self-sacrifice, which is the only form of true sacrifice.

 

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On 3/25/2023 at 1:29 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

You can only sacrifice what you possess. A vow of silence is no true sacrifice for a mute, no more than giving up the dance is for a legless man. The only life you can truly sacrifice is the one you possess, which is your own.

Why she did it, Salladhor Saan could not say. Of course not, he is a pirate and a sellsail. He is not committed to the cause of Stannis or any cause but his own. The concept of self-sacrifice is beyond him.

The hero of the Lightbringer legend is not Azor Ahai. The true hero of the story is actually Nissa Nissa, who bore her breast willingly. Nissa Nissa understood that true change requires true sacrifice, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice.

When Stannis burns Shireen in an attempt to wake dragons from stone, he will choose the side of the argument that leads to his destruction. Like his glamoured sword, his understanding of true sacrifice is but a false light that will only lead the realm further into darkness.

On the other hand, characters who learn to understand that self-sacrifice is the only true sacrifice will find salvation because true sacrifice will bring the change that is needed for the realm to survive.

 
 
 

Interesting, I have never noticed that detail about Nissa Nissa. You have convinced me that self-sacrifice is required (that is, the 'victim' needs to be willing) - but Azor Ahai also needed to commit the act of killing his wife.

Edited by csuszka1948
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9 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

but Azor Ahai also needed to commit the act of killing his wife.

Yes, there is a cost to Azor Ahai as well. It cost him what he loved best in the world - "bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world."

Some people think this means Jon and Dany will have to get married and be in love and slide down a rainbow together, but I disagree. I would say it is family and honor that Jon loves best in the world, and doing this duty to save the realm will cost him both. Jon will know he is the son of Rhaegar by the time this occurs, making Dany not just his aunt but the last Targaryen, other than himself. And as I believe Jon will father no children, he'll be presiding over the extinction of his father's house.

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  • 2 months later...
On 3/25/2023 at 5:29 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

On the other hand, characters who learn to understand that self-sacrifice is the only true sacrifice will find salvation because true sacrifice will bring the change that is needed for the realm to survive.

This is really a good post.   :bowdown:

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  • 3 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Do you think it’s possible the war with the Others will come down to sacrificing a child, or yourself. Perhaps lending credence to the fact that the PTWP was promised to the Others.

Not sacrificing a child!   No, it would be self-sacrifice.  For instance, I don't think Jon will die from his knife wounds, I could however, see him die in the Battle of the Dawn in some sort of self-sacrifice if it would stop the Others.   Something like that. 

edt; burning Shirreen, oh hell no, that won't stop the Others, but a Quorin Halfhand like sacrifice, that's what I'm thinking. 

Edited by LongRider
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7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Not sacrificing a child!   No, it would be self-sacrifice.  For instance, I don't think Jon will die from his knife wounds, I could however, see him die in the Battle of the Dawn in some sort of self-sacrifice if it would stop the Others.   Something like that. 

edt; burning Shirreen, oh hell no, that won't stop the Others, but a Quorin Halfhand like sacrifice, that's what I'm thinking. 

Could the Others not actually hate humanity, but envy them? Perhaps the Prince that was promised to them, has the blood of ice that flows in their veins, and blood of fire from the Targaryen side. Becoming their King will warm them, and return them to what they were before. Cuz I do believe that it’s likely it’s as the show was. Where the Others were made by the Children from captured First Men.

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1 minute ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Could the Others not actually hate humanity, but envy them? Perhaps the Prince that was promised to them, has the blood of ice that flows in their veins, and blood of fire from the Targaryen side. Becoming their King will warm them, and return them to what they were before. Cuz I do believe that it’s likely it’s as the show was. Where the Others were made by the Children from captured First Men.

I hope that nothing, and I mean nothing, in WOW will be like the abomination.   :ack:

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