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Would the Essos Storyline be more interesting if the Villains had more Depth?


Craving Peaches
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On 3/25/2023 at 2:15 PM, Craving Peaches said:

The slavers are so evil they don't even feel like real people. They are flat, two-dimensional characters for Daenerys to beat, that is it. And there is basically real moral conflict in the battle because the morality is all on Daenerys' side. And they are really incompetent so there wasn't even much of a struggle to beat them. Now I am not saying there are no moral complexities in the Essos storyline because there is, but they all come from Daenerys. We have potentially two ex-slaver characters, the Green Grace and Hizdahr, who say they want reform, but none of the readers seem to believe them so if this was an attempt to give more depth it has failed.

 They would be pure evil even if they weren't two-dimensional, but they would have been less boring to read if they had some depth. I think more than the slavers; it's the slaves that make the slaver bay storyline fall flat. You have a society where absolutely everything is run by enslaved people, including the best martial forces. Still, there doesn't seem to be any history of revolts until a blond teenage girl with three baby dragons comes along?! Give me a break! as I have long accepted that Daenerys is never the one asking history questions, I kind of hoped GRRM had included some history parts of slavers (Volantene and otherwise) in Young Griff's lessons chapter to give us a view on how the slavers had managed to keep such a massive percentage of enslaved people in such a terrible treatment and never have to worry about it. 

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 They would be pure evil even if they weren't two-dimensional, but they would have been less boring to read if they had some depth. I think more than the slavers; it's the slaves that make the slaver bay storyline fall flat. You have a society where absolutely everything is run by enslaved people, including the best martial forces. Still, there doesn't seem to be any history of revolts until a blond teenage girl with three baby dragons comes along?! Give me a break! as I have long accepted that Daenerys is never the one asking history questions, I kind of hoped GRRM had included some history parts of slavers (Volantene and otherwise) in Young Griff's lessons chapter to give us a view on how the slavers had managed to keep such a massive percentage of enslaved people in such a terrible treatment and never have to worry about it. 

Dunno just because we dont hear of slave revolts doesnt mean they dont happen. That said there seems to be set 'levels' of slavery (esp in volantis where its a tatoo caste system) thus the better educated,high skilled slaves and martial trained ones probably live better than most freemen in westeros.

To add to that the slavers have quite the arsenal to put down revolts from assasin cults, sellsword companies, brainwashed elite troops (unsullied) , gladiators , dothraki khals , slaver pirate fleets and new ghis legions!!! Thats before we talk their own slave troops

Unhappy slaves wed assume would normaly flee to bravos rather than stay to arrange a revolution too.

As for dany finaly being being the one to end it all  bear in mind shes seen as the messiah to the religion most slaves adhere to , a comet has appeared in the sky with her dragons and shes already smashed the slavers in 3 open battles. We know volantis already saw trouble brewing and wanted the golden company to deal with the fire priests once and for all.

 

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On 3/25/2023 at 6:54 PM, Lord Varys said:

The villains in Essos have not really less depth than the Westerosi villains. Tywin is a complex character ...

Quote

The villains we see in ASoS don't have much screentime, but Reznak, Hizdahr, Galazza Galare, Yezzan zo Qagaz, and some other folks in ADwD do have some substance.

Are they comparable to Tywin? Is any Essosi villain?

13 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The villains who do not have any depth are the Others.  The Others have none when it comes to depth.

They hardly ever appear. They're mysterious and awaiting a major role later. The slavers are getting crushed early in Winds, after already getting beat by Dany in ASoS.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

You have a society where absolutely everything is run by enslaved people, including the best martial forces. Still, there doesn't seem to be any history of revolts until a blond teenage girl with three baby dragons comes along?! Give me a break!

It would be more realistic if the Unsullied had taken over in a coup, like the Mamluk or Janissary slave soldiers. This didn't mean the end of slave soldiers in either case, just that they themselves were in charge of the society because they had the military power (a la praetorianism in the Roman empire).

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14 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Essos storylines are the most interesting to me because Daenerys and the dragons are there.  The arrival of Ser Barristan and Tyrion Lannister make those chapters the highlights of the novels.

The slavers and the Easterners do have a lot of depth.  We know their history and we have met very, very compelling characters in the Shavepate, Reznak, Yezzan, Strong Belwas, Hizdahr, and the Green Grace.  The depth is there.  The villains who do not have any depth are the Others.  The Others have none when it comes to depth.  But we already know the real villains in Westeros, the Starks.  You are partly right because the Slavers do not have the depth of the Starks when it comes to villainy.  We will know their motivations when the Starks are finally revealed as the villains in Westeros. 

Ignoring the obvious BS at the end.

The Others are a force of nature type villain. I feel act I wouldn’t really refer to them as Villains. More of a natural disaster.

I think they are returning do to the fall of fire magic in the world. Aegon II usurping the Iron Throne from Rhaenyra is very similar to the Blood Betrayal of the GEOTD. 
 

I also don’t think it a coincidence that after the original Long Night, the Valyrian Freehold rose to dominance to terrorize Essos. They were fire magic unchecked whereas the Long Night is Ice magic unchecked

Edited by King Maegor the Cool
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I think the Green Grace and the Shavepate (and to a lesser extent Hizdahr, Xaro and Daario) are pretty well flashed out characters with understandable motivations and they are important players in the Meereenese 'Game of Thrones'.

They seem to be confusing and dull because we see them through the POV of Dany and Barristan, who don't really understand the Ghiscari culture. This is intentional from GRRM's part - he wants us to be confused just as much as Dany, so that we view her choice of 'fire of blood' with sympathy and only recognize its blowbacks when she arrives at Westeros.

 

However, the slaver coalition, and the slavers of Yunkai and Astapor are ridiculous. They are (with the exception of their original leader who wanted peace) idiots to an extreme and their names sound like comedic relief. The fact that they rotate the leadership shows a comic level of incompetency. 

 

To sum it up: the politics of Meereen, the Harpies and the mystery of the poisoned locusts are interesting and well-written, but the villainy of the slaver coalition assembled against Meereen seems comedic (both their names and their stupidity).

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11 hours ago, SeanF said:

That is so much better an interpretation of Daznak’s Pit than seeing it as a choice between peace (good) and war (bad).

 
 
 

It's not simply a choice between good and bad, but peace is good if Dany wants to rule and war is good if Dany intends to conquer. She can rule reasonably well (at least compared to other leaders we see) but she had to sacrifice parts of her identity for it, and it hurts, she doesn't enjoy it, she doesn't think it was worth it.

Conquering (instead of ruling), riding a horse or a dragon (instead of sitting in a throne room and trying to reach compromises) is where she truly feels in her element, and that's what she chooses at the end of ADWD.

This might work well in Essos, but the black-and-white worldview will not serve her so well in Westeros, where the smallfolk won't love her and won't rise for her despite her best efforts.

Edited by csuszka1948
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24 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It's not simply a choice between good and bad, but peace is good if Dany wants to rule and war is good if Dany intends to conquer. She can rule reasonably well (at least compared to other leaders we see) but she had to sacrifice parts of her identity for it, and it hurts, she doesn't enjoy it, she doesn't think it was worth it.

Conquering (instead of ruling), riding a horse or a dragon (instead of sitting in a throne room and trying to reach compromises) is where she truly feels in her element, and that's what she chooses at the end of ADWD.

This might work well in Essos, but the black-and-white worldview will not serve her so well in Westeros, where the smallfolk won't love her and won't rise for her despite her best efforts.

Peace is no good if Dany just becomes the cipher of the slavers.  That's what she was in danger of, in ADWD.  It's not a question of sacrificing identity.  It is a case of sacrificing peoples' rights in order to appease a rapacious elite, who will never be appeased.

There are people who it is pointless to seek compromise with.  The slavers are among them.

I don't know where this idea comes from that compromise is always good, and sticking to principle is always bad.

What Daenerys' storyline shows is that you can't give the slavers some of what they want, chattel slavery within limits.  They will take it all, and that means, you must give them nothing.

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8 hours ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

The Others are a force of nature type villain. I feel act I wouldn’t really refer to them as Villains. More of a natural disaster.

I think they are returning do to the fall of fire magic in the world. Aegon II usurping the Iron Throne from Rhaenyra is very similar to the Blood Betrayal of the GEOTD. 
 

It's been roughly two centuries since the Dance of the Dragons. Nothing like the Long Night following right after the Blood Betrayal, which is why nobody in Westeros would make a similar deduction.

Quote

I also don’t think it a coincidence that after the original Long Night, the Valyrian Freehold rose to dominance to terrorize Essos. They were fire magic unchecked whereas the Long Night is Ice magic unchecked

I think the Valyrian Freehold lasted a lot longer than the Long Night, which would have exterminated humanity if it hadn't been stopped.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Peace is no good if Dany just becomes the cipher of the slavers.  That's what she was in danger of, in ADWD.  It's not a question of sacrificing identity.  It is a case of sacrificing peoples' rights in order to appease a rapacious elite, who will never be appeased.

There are people who it is pointless to seek compromise with.  The slavers are among them.

I think GRRM disagrees, as he said the Meereenese Blot got it in a series of essays claiming that peace WAS possible and the slavers WERE appeased for a while.

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1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I think GRRM disagrees, as he said the Meereenese Blot got it in a series of essays claiming that peace WAS possible and the slavers WERE appeased for a while.

Adam Feldman was wrong.  The peace was both unjust and insincere.  It was like the peace that the UK was offered in June 1940.

The general view is that when Martin said “he gets it”, he meant in terms of the themes of Dany’s storyline in Meereen.

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3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think GRRM disagrees, as he said the Meereenese Blot got it in a series of essays claiming that peace WAS possible and the slavers WERE appeased for a while.

This is what @Ran said that Martin spoke about those essays :

No, but he referred very specifically to the Meereenese Blot website and the knot essays. He said he was told about them, read them, and was very pleased that someone was able to get his difficulties and his intentions perfectly. (Source)

 

It does not say that the peace is real. Only that the author got Dany's strugle between peace and war and the difficulies of ruling Meereen in those circumstances, how in every chapter she gives up something for the peace.

BTW, I think he also got wrong Dany's conflict within her heart. Is not that war suits her better, because we see that what she really wants is peace :

 

I am still at war, Dany realized, only now I am fighting shadows. She had hoped for a respite from the killing, for some time to build and heal.  (ADWD, Daenerys I)

 

"I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."  (ADWD, Daenerys X)

 

But war is necessary.

 

Also, how were the slaves appeased? By making a blockade outside her gates?

"They are permitting that, yes," she had replied, "but their warships remain. They can close their fingers around our throat again whenever they wish. They have opened a slave market within sight of my walls!" (ADED, Daenerys VIII)

 

Poor old Yezzan. The lord of suet was not so bad as masters went. Sweets had been right about that. Serving at his nightly banquets, Tyrion had soon learned that Yezzan stood foremost amongst those Yunkish lords who favored honoring the peace with Meereen. Most of the others were only biding their time, waiting for the armies of Volantis to arrive. A few wanted to assault the city immediately, lest the Volantenes rob them of their glory and the best part of the plunder. Yezzan would have no part of that. Nor would he consent to returning Meereen's hostages by way of trebuchet, as the sellsword Bloodbeard had proposed.  (ADWD, Daenerys XI)

 

So, how much do you want to bet the yunkish really wanted peace?

 

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Adam Feldman was wrong.  The peace was both unjust and insincere.  It was like the peace that the UK was offered in June 1940.

The general view is that when Martin said “he gets it”, he meant in terms of the themes of Dany’s storyline in Meereen.

 

Was he wrong? His arguments that the Meereenese elite wanted peace and the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to avert it are very convincing.

About the slaver coalition, he was partially wrong. The Yunkish were divided on the issue - the majority of them wanted war once the Volantane arrive, but the most important person, their leader (who died in the fighting pits) favored peace (as the Shavepate admitted it). Yes, they were duplicitous, but so was Dany before (btw that is Dany's greatest problem with making peace - after Dany's actions in Astapor, no slaver is going to trust her to keep her deals).

Anyway, what really matters is Dany's perception of peace.

It is also important to note what 'broke the camel's neck' for Dany: the death of a free (willing) woman in the fighting pits and that the people (on both sides) tried to stop Drogon from indiscriminately slaughtering innocents. These events are not related to slavery, but are tied to innate elements of the Ghiscari culture.

 

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1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

that the people (on both sides) tried to stop Drogon from indiscriminately slaughtering innocents. These events are not related to slavery, but are tied to innate elements of the Ghiscari culture.

To be fair I think anyone would have tried to stop Drogon attacking and eating people. Those events would be considered horrible anywhere.

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47 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Was he wrong? His arguments that the Meereenese elite wanted peace and the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to avert it are very convincing.

We truly don't know who did it and Martin did not confirm his theory

47 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

About the slaver coalition, he was partially wrong. The Yunkish were divided on the issue - the majority of them wanted war once the Volantane arrive, but the most important person, their leader (who died in the fighting pits) favored peace (as the Shavepate admitted it)

Serving at his nightly banquets, Tyrion had soon learned that Yezzan stood foremost amongst those Yunkish lords who favored honoring the peace with Meereen. Most of the others were only biding their time, waiting for the armies of Volantis to arrive. A few wanted to assault the city immediately, lest the Volantenes rob them of their glory and the best part of the plunder.  (ADWD, Tyrion XI)

I would also appreciate the quote where is stated that the most important person, their leader favoured peace because I honeslty don't remember it.

 

47 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It is also important to note what 'broke the camel's neck' for Dany: the death of a free (willing) woman in the fighting pits and that the people (on both sides) tried to stop Drogon from indiscriminately slaughtering innocents. These events are not related to slavery, but are tied to innate elements of the Ghiscari culture.

The fighting pits are tied to slavery. Daenerys is uncomfortable from the beginning of the fightings because she does not enjoy the butchery. Also, Barsena's death has some raping conotations :

It began just as he said. The boar charged, Barsena spun aside, her blade flashed silver in the sun. "She needs a spear," Ser Barristan said, as Barsena vaulted over the beast's second charge. "That is no way to fight a boar." He sounded like someone's fussy old grandsire, just as Daario was always saying.
Barsena's blade was running red, but the boar soon stopped. He is smarter than a bull, Dany realized. He will not charge again. Barsena came to the same realization. Shouting, she edged closer to the boar, tossing her knife from hand to hand. When the beast backed away, she cursed and slashed at his snout, trying to provoke him … and succeeding. This time her leap came an instant too late, and a tusk ripped her left leg open from knee to crotch.
A moan went up from thirty thousand throats. Clutching at her torn leg, Barsena dropped her knife and tried to hobble off, but before she had gone two feet the boar was on her once again. Dany turned her face away. "Was that brave enough?" she asked Strong Belwas, as a scream rang out across the sand.
"Fighting pigs is brave, but it is not brave to scream so loud. It hurts Strong Belwas in the ears." The eunuch rubbed his swollen stomach, crisscrossed with old white scars. "It makes Strong Belwas sick in his belly too."
The boar buried his snout in Barsena's belly and began rooting out her entrails. The smell was more than the queen could stand. The heat, the flies, the shouts from the crowd … I cannot breathe. She lifted her veil and let it flutter away. She took her tokar off as well. The pearls rattled softly against one another as she unwound the silk.
"Khaleesi?" Irri asked. "What are you doing?"
"Taking off my floppy ears." A dozen men with boar spears came trotting out onto the sand to drive the boar away from the corpse and back to his pen. The pitmaster was with them, a long barbed whip in his hand. As he snapped it at the boar, the queen rose. "Ser Barristan, will you see me safely back to my garden?" (ADWD, Daenerys IX)
 
This is the scene from when Drogon appears until Dany flies him away :
 
A shadow rippled across his face.

The tumult and the shouting died. Ten thousand voices stilled. Every eye turned skyward. A warm wind brushed Dany's cheeks, and above the beating of her heart she heard the sound of wings. Two spearmen dashed for shelter. The pitmaster froze where he stood. The boar went snuffling back to Barsena. Strong Belwas gave a moan, stumbled from his seat, and fell to his knees.

Above them all the dragon turned, dark against the sun. His scales were black, his eyes and horns and spinal plates blood red. Ever the largest of her three, in the wild Drogon had grown larger still. His wings stretched twenty feet from tip to tip, black as jet. He flapped them once as he swept back above the sands, and the sound was like a clap of thunder. The boar raised his head, snorting ... and flame engulfed him, black fire shot with red. Dany felt the wash of heat thirty feet away. The beast's dying scream sounded almost human. Drogon landed on the carcass and sank his claws into the smoking flesh. As he began to feed, he made no distinction between Barsena and the boar.

"Oh, gods," moaned Reznak, "he's eating her!" The seneschal covered his mouth. Strong Belwas was retching noisily. A queer look passed across Hizdahr zo Loraq's long, pale face-part fear, part lust, part rapture. He licked his lips. Dany could see the Pahls streaming up the steps, clutching their tokar s and tripping over the fringes in their haste to be away. Others followed. Some ran, shoving at one another. More stayed in their seats.

One man took it on himself to be a hero.

He was one of the spearmen sent out to drive the boar back to his pen. Perhaps he was drunk, or mad. Perhaps he had loved Barsena Blackhair from afar or had heard some whisper of the girl Hazzea. Perhaps he was just some common man who wanted bards to sing of him. He darted forward, his boar spear in his hands. Red sand kicked up beneath his heels, and shouts rang out from the seats. Drogon raised his head, blood dripping from his teeth. The hero leapt onto his back and drove the iron spearpoint down at the base of the dragon's long scaled neck.

Dany and Drogon screamed as one.

The hero leaned into his spear, using his weight to twist the point in deeper. Drogon arched upward with a hiss of pain. His tail lashed sideways. She watched his head crane around at the end of that long serpentine neck, saw his black wings unfold. The dragonslayer lost his footing and went tumbling to the sand. He was trying to struggle back to his feet when the dragon's teeth closed hard around his forearm. "No" was all the man had time to shout. Drogon wrenched his arm from his shoulder and tossed it aside as a dog might toss a rodent in a rat pit.

"Kill it," Hizdahr zo Loraq shouted to the other spearmen. "Kill the beast! "

Ser Barristan held her tightly. "Look away, Your Grace."

"Let me go!" Dany twisted from his grasp. The world seemed to slow as she cleared the parapet. When she landed in the pit she lost a sandal. Running, she could feel the sand between her toes, hot and rough. Ser Barristan was calling after her. Strong Belwas was still vomiting. She ran faster.

The spearmen were running too. Some were rushing toward the dragon, spears in hand. Others were rushing away, throwing down their weapons as they fled. The hero was jerking on the sand, the bright blood pouring from the ragged stump of his shoulder. His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound. As the other spears closed in, the dragon spat fire, bathing two men in black flame. His tail lashed sideways and caught the pitmaster creeping up behind him, breaking him in two. Another attacker stabbed at his eyes until the dragon caught him in his jaws and tore his belly out. The Meereenese were screaming, cursing, howling. Dany could hear someone pounding after her. "Drogon," she screamed. "Drogon. "

His head turned. Smoke rose between his teeth. His blood was smoking too, where it dripped upon the ground. He beat his wings again, sending up a choking storm of scarlet sand. Dany stumbled into the hot red cloud, coughing. He snapped.

"No" was all that she had time to say. No, not me, don' t you know me? The black teeth closed inches from her face. He meant to tear my head off. The sand was in her eyes. She stumbled over the pitmaster's corpse and fell on her backside.

Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her. The dragon's long scaled neck stretched toward her. When his mouth opened, she could see bits of broken bone and charred flesh between his black teeth. His eyes were molten. I am looking into hell, but I dare not look away. She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me. In Westeros the septons spoke of seven hells and seven heavens, but the Seven Kingdoms and their gods were far away. If she died here, Dany wondered, would the horse god of the Dothraki part the grass and claim her for his starry khalasar, so she might ride the nightlands beside her sun-and-stars? Or would the angry gods of Ghis send their harpies to seize her soul and drag her down to torment? Drogon roared full in her face, his breath hot enough to blister skin. Off to her right Dany heard Barristan Selmy shouting, "Me! Try me. Over here. Me! "

In the smoldering red pits of Drogon's eyes, Dany saw her own reflection. How small she looked, how weak and frail and scared. I cannot let him see my fear. She scrabbled in the sand, pushing against the pitmaster's corpse, and her fingers brushed against the handle of his whip. Touching it made her feel braver. The leather was warm, alive. Drogon roared again, the sound so loud that she almost dropped the whip. His teeth snapped at her.

Dany hit him. "No, " she screamed, swinging the lash with all the strength that she had in her. The dragon jerked his head back. "No, " she screamed again. "NO! " The barbs raked along his snout. Drogon rose, his wings covering her in shadow. Dany swung the lash at his scaled belly, back and forth until her arm began to ache. His long serpentine neck bent like an archer's bow. With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging the whip and shouting, "No, no, no. Get DOWN! " His answering roar was full of fear and fury, full of pain. His wings beat once, twice ...

... and folded. The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

Daenerys Targaryen vaulted onto the dragon's back, seized the spear, and ripped it out. The point was half-melted, the iron red-hot, glowing. She flung it aside. Drogon twisted under her, his muscles rippling as he gathered his strength. The air was thick with sand. Dany could not see, she could not breathe, she could not think. The black wings cracked like thunder, and suddenly the scarlet sands were falling away beneath her.

Dizzy, Dany closed her eyes. When she opened them again, she glimpsed the Meereenese beneath her through a haze of tears and dust, pouring up the steps and out into the streets.

The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogon's neck and cried, "Higher! " Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogon's wide black wings beat the air. Dany could feel the heat of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, FLY!" - A Dance with Dragons" - Daenerys IX
 
So basically Drogon arrives and spearmen attack him so he fights back. You can note that Hizdahr is the one who gives this command. Barristan also recalls spears and crossbows being tossed at Drogon while Dany tries to hold on him :
 
Spears were thrown, crossbows were fired. Some struck home. The dragon twisted violently in the air, wounds smoking, the girl clinging to his back. Then he loosed the fire.  (ADWD, The Queen's Guard)
 
And IDk where you got the idea that "both sides" attack Drogon, when the only ones who see him as a monster are the slavers and their supporters:
 

"The count will pass thirty before midday. Why do you look so grey, old man? What did you expect? The Harpy wants Hizdahr free, so he has sent his sons back into the streets with knives in hand. The dead are all freedmen and shavepates, as before. One was mine, a Brazen Beast. The sign of the Harpy was left beside the bodies, chalked on the pavement or scratched into a wall. There were messages as well. 'Dragons must die,' they wrote, and 'Harghaz the Hero.' 'Death to Daenerys' was seen as well, before the rain washed out the words." (ADWD, The Queen's Hand)

 

And when a man in a blue-and-gold tokar began to speak of Harghaz the Hero, a freedman behind him shoved him to the floor. (ADWD, The Discarded Knight)

 

"The others shall remain our guests," announced the Yunkish lord in the breastplate, "until the dragons have been destroyed."
A hush fell across the hall. Then came the murmurs and the mutters, whispered curses, whispered prayers, the hornets stirring in their hive. "The dragons …" said King Hizdahr.
 
"… are monsters, as all men saw in Daznak's Pit. No true peace is possible whilst they live." (ADWD, The Discarded Knight)
 
Half the city is calling the dragonslayer a hero, and the other half spits blood at the mention of his name. (ADWD The Spurned Suitor)
 
 
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27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair I think anyone would have tried to stop Drogon attacking and eating people. Those events would be considered horrible anywhere.

But they were moaning at the Boar eating Barsena alive. Drogon only ate Barsena's corpse (and the boar) and then responded to the attacks.

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49 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Was he wrong? His arguments that the Meereenese elite wanted peace and the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to avert it are very convincing.

About the slaver coalition, he was partially wrong. The Yunkish were divided on the issue - the majority of them wanted war once the Volantane arrive, but the most important person, their leader (who died in the fighting pits) favored peace (as the Shavepate admitted it). Yes, they were duplicitous, but so was Dany before (btw that is Dany's greatest problem with making peace - after Dany's actions in Astapor, no slaver is going to trust her to keep her deals).

Anyway, what really matters is Dany's perception of peace.

It is also important to note what 'broke the camel's neck' for Dany: the death of a free (willing) woman in the fighting pits and that the people (on both sides) tried to stop Drogon from indiscriminately slaughtering innocents. These events are not related to slavery, but are tied to innate elements of the Ghiscari culture.

 

The Meereenese elite are face-eating leopards.  They proved it by murdering and raping freedmen at the drop of a hat, after the city was taken. Many of them participated in the blockade of the city.  When you make concessions to face-eating leopards, you encourage them to eat faces.  No sooner does Dany try to make peace with them, and they're throwing Tyrion and Penny to lions, and setting up a slave market outside the city. 

Adam Feldman might view the slavers as essentially reasonable people, but I have no reason to agree with him, based upon what I've read about them.

As to Daenerys' duplicity, she kept to the bargain she struck with Yunkai.  She spared the city, in return for their releasing their slaves.  She had the Wise Masters at her mercy and could have put them all to death (and probably ought to have done).  No sooner had she left, then they resumed slaving, and intrigued against her.

Yes, she tricked the Good Masters of Astapor, and she was entirely morally right to do so.  People who murder, rape, and castrate children for their own profit and amusement are like pirates - hostes humanum generis.   Blaming her for it is like blaming Mance Rayder for breaching guest-right at Winterfell.

Dany is well aware that the peace is disgusting.  She hates it, and she is right to hate it. As to Daznak's Pit, the fact that Daenerys is revolted by the slaughter (and what was planned for Tyrion and Penny) is very much a point in her favour, not one that counts against her.  Drogon actually was eating Barsena and the boar.  A fool then decided to attack him.  Barristan's POV shows that this man is only considered a "hero" to the freeborn, but is reviled by the freedmen.  My own sympathies rest far more with the latter than with the former.

Both the fighting pits and the dragons are very closely connected to slavery.  The former are a symbol of subjugation, killing or imprisoning the latter emboldens the slavers. 

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Edited by SeanF
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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Meereenese elite are face-eating leopards.  They proved it by murdering and raping freedmen at the drop of a hat. Many of them participated in the blockade of the city.  When you make concessions to face-eating leopards, you encourage them to eat faces.  No sooner does Dany try to make peace with them, and they're throwing Tyrion and Penny to lions, and setting up a slave market outside the city. 

As to Daenerys' duplicity, she kept to the bargain she struck with Yunkai.  She spared the city, in return for their releasing their slaves.  She had the Wise Masters at her mercy and could have put them all to death (and probably ought to have done).  No sooner had she left, then they resumed slaving, and intrigued against her.

Yes, she tricked the Good Masters of Astapor, and she was entirely morally right to do so.  People who murder, rape, and castrate children for their own profit and amusement are like pirates - hostes humanum generis. 

Dany is well aware that the peace is disgusting.  She hates it, and she is right to hate it. As to Daznak's Pit, the fact that Daenerys is revolted by the slaughter (and what was planned for Tyrion and Penny) is very much a point in her favour, not one that counts against her.  Drogon actually was eating Barsena and the boar.  A fool then decided to attack him.  Barristan's POV shows that this man is only considered a "hero" to the freeborn, but reviled by the freedmen.

Both the fighting pits and the dragons are very closely connected to slavery.  The former are a symbol of subjugation, killing or imprisoning the latter emboldens the slavers. 

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For the slaves Dany freed, the dragons are a symbol of their freedom. That's why the unsullied shout dracarys :

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"
"Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire. (ASOS, Daenerys III)
Edited by Oana_Mika
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1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

But they were moaning at the Boar eating Barsena alive. Drogon only ate Barsena's corpse (and the boar) and then responded to the attacks.

I still think people wouldn't like her being eaten by Drogon, regardless that she was dead.

Quote

Moments after the boar disembowels the fallen pit fighter, Drogon descends into Daznak's Pit, kills the boar with dragonflame, and begins to devour both corpses.

...

It is then that Drogon appears, his attention drawn by the blood and screams. His fires sear the boar, before he eats it and then Barsena.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I still think people wouldn't like her being eaten by Drogon, regardless that she was dead.

Yeah, but I think it's less grotesque than being eaten alive by a boar. You are already dead, so you don't feel anything.

IDK what's with that quote, but I'll quote the book itself on that scene. Barsena was already dead when Drogon landed :

 

"Fighting pigs is brave, but it is not brave to scream so loud. It hurts Strong Belwas in the ears." The eunuch rubbed his swollen stomach, crisscrossed with old white scars. "It makes Strong Belwas sick in his belly too."
The boar buried his snout in Barsena's belly and began rooting out her entrails. The smell was more than the queen could stand. The heat, the flies, the shouts from the crowd … I cannot breathe. She lifted her veil and let it flutter away. She took her tokar off as well. The pearls rattled softly against one another as she unwound the silk.

 

This is where Drogon lands and kills the boar and eats Barsena's corpse too :

 

A shadow rippled across his face.

The tumult and the shouting died. Ten thousand voices stilled. Every eye turned skyward. A warm wind brushed Dany's cheeks, and above the beating of her heart she heard the sound of wings. Two spearmen dashed for shelter. The pitmaster froze where he stood. The boar went snuffling back to Barsena. Strong Belwas gave a moan, stumbled from his seat, and fell to his knees.

Above them all the dragon turned, dark against the sun. His scales were black, his eyes and horns and spinal plates blood red. Ever the largest of her three, in the wild Drogon had grown larger still. His wings stretched twenty feet from tip to tip, black as jet. He flapped them once as he swept back above the sands, and the sound was like a clap of thunder. The boar raised his head, snorting ... and flame engulfed him, black fire shot with red. Dany felt the wash of heat thirty feet away. The beast's dying scream sounded almost human. Drogon landed on the carcass and sank his claws into the smoking flesh. As he began to feed, he made no distinction between Barsena and the boar.

 

To me it seems like Barsena was already dead, since she was very injured even before the boar eat her entrails :

 

Shouting, she edged closer to the boar, tossing her knife from hand to hand. When the beast backed away, she cursed and slashed at his snout, trying to provoke him … and succeeding. This time her leap came an instant too late, and a tusk ripped her left leg open from knee to crotch.
A moan went up from thirty thousand throats. Clutching at her torn leg, Barsena dropped her knife and tried to hobble off, but before she had gone two feet the boar was on her once again.
Edited by Oana_Mika
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4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh I agree she was already dead, just that people no matter where would be disgusted by Drogon eating her corpse, and not just the Ghiscari.

Yeah, but what strikes me is their hypocrisy at moaning at the sight of a person beind devouered alive (ofc, them being safe in their places) and then turn around and cry horror at Drogon eating that person's corpse and ofc, they are not safe from Drogon attacking them, as they were from the boar, so to me that's why they react this way.

Edited by Oana_Mika
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