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Would the Essos Storyline be more interesting if the Villains had more Depth?


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16 hours ago, SeanF said:

Peace is no good if Dany just becomes the cipher of the slavers.  That's what she was in danger of, in ADWD.  It's not a question of sacrificing identity.  It is a case of sacrificing peoples' rights in order to appease a rapacious elite, who will never be appeased.

There are people who it is pointless to seek compromise with.  The slavers are among them.

I don't know where this idea comes from that compromise is always good, and sticking to principle is always bad.

What Daenerys' storyline shows is that you can't give the slavers some of what they want, chattel slavery within limits.  They will take it all, and that means, you must give them nothing.

 
 
 

How much he sacrificed his peoples' rights? As far as I know, Meereen remained a city of free people. 

Yes, this required a compromise with the insider and outsider forces (marriage to Hizdahr, opening fighting pits, allowing slave trade OUTSIDE walls), but without it she would be forced to fight the slaver coalition and it is quite possible that she would lose and everything she achieved would turn to ash - after all, she is massively outnumbered and the dragons are uncontrollable. 

 

I am not saying that every compromise she made was right, of course -for example, letting Hizdahr name his cousin commander of the Brazen Beast (instead of Shavepate, who made his choice to openly turn against slavers) was stupid.

Similarly, arriving to Meereen, she should have taken away a big portion of the slavers' wealth and redistribute it among slaves instead of crucifying a select few ('leaders' who were selected by the slavers themselves), but this is too much of a revolutionary thought.

Edited by csuszka1948
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 As others have said, we would benefit greatly from some Essosi POVs, that’s usually the lens through which GRRM engenders sympathy and breadth. Without that our perspective on Essosi people is always that of a traveller. I mean, I suppose after a fashion, depending on Lemongate, Dany has lived virtually her entire life in Essos, but she has somehow mostly retained a more Westerosi style of consciousness. I think. 

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1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

 

Similarly, arriving to Meereen, she should have taken away a big portion of the slavers' wealth and redistribute it among slaves instead of crucifying a select few ('leaders' who were selected by the slavers themselves), but this is too much of a revolutionary thought.

Apart from Thaddeus Stevens, and a few British radicals and evangelicals, it's striking that no one has ever suggested confiscation in real life.

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3 hours ago, James Arryn said:

 As others have said, we would benefit greatly from some Essosi POVs, that’s usually the lens through which GRRM engenders sympathy and breadth. Without that our perspective on Essosi people is always that of a traveller. I mean, I suppose after a fashion, depending on Lemongate, Dany has lived virtually her entire life in Essos, but she has somehow mostly retained a more Westerosi style of consciousness. I think. 

I'm not sure we would have benefitted, as Essos itself is rather shallow. Broad and diverse, but extremely shallow.

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16 hours ago, SeanF said:

The peace was both unjust and insincere.  It was like the peace that the UK was offered in June 1940.

It's debatable whether it was "unjust", but Oana_Mika's quote below indicates that Yezzan had sincerely made a peace deal.

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The general view is that when Martin said “he gets it”, he meant in terms of the themes of Dany’s storyline in Meereen.

Wasn't part of the theme making a difficult decision between war & peace? It's not a very difficult decision if the latter isn't even an option.

15 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

It does not say that the peace is real.

That's actually the subtitle of Untangling the Meereenese Knot, Part II: The Peace Was Real. It would be difficult for GRRM to overlook that if he actually read these essays as he claimed.

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Also, how were the slaves appeased? By making a blockade outside her gates?

The sentence DIRECTLY BEFORE the one you quote makes clear the peace deal had removed a blockade:
"Peace, food, trade. Our port is open once again, and ships are being permitted to come and go."

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So, how much do you want to bet the yunkish really wanted peace?

As your quote indicates, Yezzan really did. And, as the Blot points out, this is AFTER the previous leader Yurkhaz died when Drogon appeared at the fighting pit.

9 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

I would also appreciate the quote where is stated that the most important person, their leader favoured peace because I honeslty don't remember it.

"The Yunkai'i did not lack for commanders. An old hero named Yurkhaz zo Yunzak had the supreme command"
He first makes a peace deal with Dany, then dies at the reopened fighting pit, where he had been laughing with Hizdahr before things went wrong. After he dies, the next in line is the person whose sincere support for peace had already been discussed:
“Have the Yunkishmen chosen a new commander?” “The council of masters has been unable to agree. Yezzan zo Qaggaz had the most support"

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The fighting pits are tied to slavery.

 

"tied to" even though Dany has already heard pitfighters (including the woman who gets killed by a boar) tell her they want to fight there of their own free will?

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

setting up a slave market outside the city.

The deal she made explicitly permitted them to continue their activities OUTSIDE of Meereen.

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Yes, she tricked the Good Masters of Astapor, and she was entirely morally right to do so.

You can claim to be "morally right", but it makes it very difficult for people to subsequently trust you. She can always claim to be "morally right" as she violates the next agreement she makes. Since I watched "The Woman King" not too long ago I am reminded of the actual history of people selling guns in exchange for slaves. If the British had begun their suppression of the slave trade by buying slaves from Dahomey in exchange for guns, and instead then just killing the king with said guns and enlisting the former slaves into their army to attack more slavers, they would be significantly less likely to get more people to agree to deals with them.

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like pirates - hostes humanum generis.

Pirates are considered the enemies of everyone because they attack everyone's ships and obey no laws. These cities aren't like that: they weren't at war with anyone. The Dothraki who capture the slaves sold to these cities are arguably closer to qualifying.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Apart from Thaddeus Stevens, and a few British radicals and evangelicals, it's striking that no one has ever suggested confiscation in real life.

It's not in response to slavery, but land confiscation did occur in some post-colonial environments like Zimbabwe. In Haiti's slave uprising the plantation owners were largely killed, so confiscating their property afterward wasn't dispossessing anyone still around.

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16 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's debatable whether it was "unjust", but Oana_Mika's quote below indicates that Yezzan had sincerely made a peace deal.

Wasn't part of the theme making a difficult decision between war & peace? It's not a very difficult decision if the latter isn't even an option.

That's actually the subtitle of Untangling the Meereenese Knot, Part II: The Peace Was Real. It would be difficult for GRRM to overlook that if he actually read these essays as he claimed.

The sentence DIRECTLY BEFORE the one you quote makes clear the peace deal had removed a blockade:
"Peace, food, trade. Our port is open once again, and ships are being permitted to come and go."

As your quote indicates, Yezzan really did. And, as the Blot points out, this is AFTER the previous leader Yurkhaz died when Drogon appeared at the fighting pit.

"The Yunkai'i did not lack for commanders. An old hero named Yurkhaz zo Yunzak had the supreme command"
He first makes a peace deal with Dany, then dies at the reopened fighting pit, where he had been laughing with Hizdahr before things went wrong. After he dies, the next in line is the person whose sincere support for peace had already been discussed:
“Have the Yunkishmen chosen a new commander?” “The council of masters has been unable to agree. Yezzan zo Qaggaz had the most support"

"tied to" even though Dany has already heard pitfighters (including the woman who gets killed by a boar) tell her they want to fight there of their own free will?

The deal she made explicitly permitted them to continue their activities OUTSIDE of Meereen.

You can claim to be "morally right", but it makes it very difficult for people to subsequently trust you. She can always claim to be "morally right" as she violates the next agreement she makes. Since I watched "The Woman King" not too long ago I am reminded of the actual history of people selling guns in exchange for slaves. If the British had begun their suppression of the slave trade by buying slaves from Dahomey in exchange for guns, and instead then just killing the king with said guns and enlisting the former slaves into their army to attack more slavers, they would be significantly less likely to get more people to agree to deals with them.

Pirates are considered the enemies of everyone because they attack everyone's ships and obey no laws. These cities aren't like that: they weren't at war with anyone. The Dothraki who capture the slaves sold to these cities are arguably closer to qualifying.

It's not in response to slavery, but land confiscation did occur in some post-colonial environments like Zimbabwe. In Haiti's slave uprising the plantation owners were largely killed, so confiscating their property afterward wasn't dispossessing anyone still around.

1. It really is not debateable wheher the peace was unjust (at least, IMHO),  The peace was loathsome. A peace which sets up a slave market outside Meereen is not remotely just.  Meereenese territory does not just consist of Meereen City.  It comprises a surrounding hinterland.  This market was being created on Meereenese territory.

2. Oana_Mika's quote makes plain that most Yunkish lords wanted war, and were simply waiting for the Volantenes to arrive.  The fact that the Yellow Whale favoured peace is neither here nor there, given that he died from dysentry.

Nothing about the Volantene armada suggests they were turning up on a goodwill visit.  Their reasons are given by Qhavo the Customs Officer that Tyrion encounters in Selhorys:

"The city thirsts for war." 

"Why?" wondered Tyrion. "Meereen is long leagues across the sea. How has this sweet child queen offended Old Volantis?" ....

"The best calumnies are spiced with truth," suggested Qavo, "but the girl's true sin cannot be denied. This arrogant child has taken it upon herself to smash the slave trade, but that traffic was never confined to Slaver's Bay. It was part of the sea of trade that spanned the world, and the dragon queen has clouded the water. Behind the Black Wall, lords of ancient blood sleep poorly, listening as their kitchen slaves sharpen their long knives. Slaves grow our food, clean our streets, teach our young. They guard our walls, row our galleys, fight our battles. And now when they look east, they see this young queen shining from afar, this breaker of chains. The Old Blood cannot suffer that. Poor men hate her too. Even the vilest beggar stands higher than a slave. This dragon queen would rob him of that consolation."  The Yunkish sent envoys to Volantis and the Dothraki, the moment she marched away from their city.

Qhavo lets the cat out of the bag.  The Old Blood fear revolution, so long as slaves are free.  The text is clear too, that Yunkish envoys invited the Volantenes to invade.  How on earth can they claim to sincerely want peace while planning a massive foreign invasion?

Do you seriously imagine that when the armada turns up, the besieging army, the Yunkish lords, the Meereenese elites are all going to tell them to go home again?

Adam Feldman barely addresses the fact that the regional superpower is launching an invasion, save to suggest that the Yunkish lords may not have known about it.  But, that is contradicted by the Yunkish having sent out envoys to Volantis in the first place.

3.  "Permitted" to come and go is the key word.  Daenerys points out in reply that the blockade can be resumed at any point.   It's like the Tyrells cutting off the supply of food to Kings Landing.  "Permitting" the supply of food is not a concession, when you are the one blocking the supply of food in the first place.

4.   Prior to Daenerys' arrival, most pit fighters were not volunteers.  The problem with "voluntary" pit fighting is that it rapidly becomes involuntary.  Hence, Tyrion and Penny almost being fed to lions.  Note, that the Yellow Whale, who you consider a peacemaker, was quite willing to agree to this charming proposal.  So, yes, pit fighting is intimately connected with slavery.

5.  Daenerys could have marched off with a slave army from Astapor, sacking towns and cities along the way and selling the captives back to the Good Masters, as they suggested.  I do not buy the idea that that would somehow have been a course of action that was morally superior to that which she chose, simply because it was honouring a bargain with the Good Masters.

Let's remind ourselves about Astapor's principal export activity.  It involves the mass murder and castration of children.  8,000 Unsullied, means 25,000 dead children.  Over the course of three hundred years, that probaly means the number of dead children will run into the low millions.  People who pay others to kidnap children on that scale, before torturing and murdering them are hostes humanum generis by any yardstick. Slave-trading actually fuels warfare, and piracy, across a continent.  Nobody would raid for slaves, or seize captives on the high seas, unless there was a ready market for their "goods."  In general, receivers of stolen goods, which is what the Ghiscari masters are, are punished more severely than the actual thieves. The Ghiscari masters are not people who are just minding their own business, until Daenerys shows up.  They are inflicting horror on a continent-wide scale.

The Good Masters had to be put out of business - permanently.

What Daenerys did, at Astapor, by breaking her agreement with the Good Masters, and liberating 54,000 people, was to trick a bunch of thieves, in order to return what they had stolen (the persons of slaves) to its rightful owners (the freed slaves).

Daenerys has nothing like the power of the British empire at her back, enabling her to fight, threaten, and bribe, slavers to give up their practice.   What she does have, is the chance to kick-start a revolution against the slavers, from Slavers Bay to Volantis.  The so-called peace would have prevented that.

Edited by SeanF
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19 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I think GRRM disagrees, as he said the Meereenese Blot got it in a series of essays claiming that peace WAS possible and the slavers WERE appeased for a while.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument that Martin considered that the re-establishment of slavery and slave-trading, and feeding dwarves to lions, in-universe, were welcome developments (which would, incidentally, completely contradict the theme of Fevre Dreme, as well as contradicting everything he wrote about chattel slavery in this series ).

Well, I'm afraid I would disagree with him.

If free people in Essos must be sacrificed for the “greater good”, then why not people like Edric Storm or Shireen or Jeyne Poole in the West?

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's actually the subtitle of Untangling the Meereenese Knot, Part II: The Peace Was Real. It would be difficult for GRRM to overlook that if he actually read these essays as he claimed.

Look again at what @Ran said that GRRM told : someone was able to get his difficulties and his intentions perfectly.  It does not seem to imply : yes, the peace was real and the locusts were poisoned by the shavepate., but that he understood the political dificulties in Meereen and that every chapter she gives up something she values. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that until these essays, most fans only viewed her story in Meereen as just a filler and that she simply sucked at rulling, things that these essays explain being false, but he got to the wrong conclusion.

@SeanF did my job with his answer. IDK how anyone can read ADWD and feel like the slavers were reasonable in their demands and completely ignore Volantis and their coalition (in which war Yunkai most definitely won't be on Dany's side, but on theirs). Anyway, the slaves also view Daenerys compromising with the masters as no good : Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa, they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another. (ADWD, Tyrion X)

Edited by Oana_Mika
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Yeah, what Oana said. I think the conflict Dany is facing and her struggle was something George felt the essay apprehended correctly, but it doesn't mean he endorses all the speculative theorizing about the plot in the same essay. He just felt it was a thoughtful attempt to engage with the complexities of Dany's story, or at least that's the most I can take from what he said.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Yeah, what Oana said. I think the conflict Dany is facing and her struggle was something George felt the essay apprehended correctly, but it doesn't mean he endorses all the speculative theorizing about the plot in the same essay. He just felt it was a thoughtful attempt to engage with the complexities of Dany's story, or at least that's the most I can take from what he said.

When I saw your symbol next to the thread I thought someone got in trouble :rofl:

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

1. It really is not debateable wheher the peace was unjust.  The peace was loathsome. A peace which sets up a slave market outside Meereen is not remotely just.  Meereenese territory does not just consist of Meereen City.  It comprises a surrounding hinterland.  This market was being created on Meereenese territory.

2. Oana_Mika's quote makes plain that most Yunkish lords wanted war, and were simply waiting for the Volantenes to arrive.  The fact that the Yellow Whale favoured peace is neither here nor there, given that he died from dysentry.

Nothing about the Volantene armada suggests they were turning up on a goodwill visit.  Their reasons are given by Qhavo the Customs Officer that Tyrion encounters in Selhorys:

"The city thirsts for war." 

"Why?" wondered Tyrion. "Meereen is long leagues across the sea. How has this sweet child queen offended Old Volantis?" ....

"The best calumnies are spiced with truth," suggested Qavo, "but the girl's true sin cannot be denied. This arrogant child has taken it upon herself to smash the slave trade, but that traffic was never confined to Slaver's Bay. It was part of the sea of trade that spanned the world, and the dragon queen has clouded the water. Behind the Black Wall, lords of ancient blood sleep poorly, listening as their kitchen slaves sharpen their long knives. Slaves grow our food, clean our streets, teach our young. They guard our walls, row our galleys, fight our battles. And now when they look east, they see this young queen shining from afar, this breaker of chains. The Old Blood cannot suffer that. Poor men hate her too. Even the vilest beggar stands higher than a slave. This dragon queen would rob him of that consolation."  The Yunkish sent envoys to Volantis and the Dothraki, the moment she marched away from their city.

Qhavo lets the cat out of the bag.  The Old Blood fear revolution, so long as slaves are free.  The text is clear too, that Yunkish envoys invited the Volantenes to invade.  How on earth can they claim to sincerely want peace while planning a massive foreign invasion?

Do you seriously imagine that when the armada turns up, the besieging army, the Yunkish lords, the Meereenese elites are all going to tell them to go home again?

Adam Feldman barely addresses the fact that the regional superpower is launching an invasion, save to suggest that the Yunkish lords may not have known about it.  But, that is contradicted by the Yunkish having sent out envoys to Volantis in the first place.

3.  "Permitted" to come and go is the key word.  Daenerys points out in reply that the blockade can be resumed at any point.   It's like the Tyrells cutting off the supply of food to Kings Landing.  "Permitting" the supply of food is not a concession, when you are the one blocking the supply of food in the first place.

4.   Prior to Daenerys' arrival, most pit fighters were not volunteers.  The problem with "voluntary" pit fighting is that it rapidly becomes involuntary.  Hence, Tyrion and Penny almost being fed to lions.  Note, that the Yellow Whale, who you consider a peacemaker, was quite willing to agree to this charming proposal.  So, yes, pit fighting is intimately connected with slavery.

5.  Daenerys could have marched off with a slave army from Astapor, sacking towns and cities along the way and selling the captives back to the Good Masters, as they suggested.  I do not buy the idea that that would somehow have been a course of action that was morally superior to that which she chose, simply because it was honouring a bargain with the Good Masters.

Let's remind ourselves about Astapor's principal export activity.  It involves the mass murder and castration of children.  8,000 Unsullied, means 25,000 dead children.  Over the course of three hundred years, that probaly means the number of dead children will run into the low millions.  People who pay others to kidnap children on that scale, before torturing and murdering them are hostes humanum generis by any yardstick. Slave-trading actually fuels warfare, and piracy, across a continent.  Nobody would raid for slaves, or seize captives on the high seas, unless there was a ready market for their "goods."  In general, receivers of stolen goods, which is what the Ghiscari masters are, are punished more severely than the actual thieves. The Ghiscari masters are not people who are just minding their own business, until Daenerys shows up.  They are inflicting horror on a continent-wide scale.

The Good Masters had to be put out of business - permanently.

What Daenerys did, at Astapor, by breaking her agreement with the Good Masters, and liberating 54,000 people, was to trick a bunch of thieves, in order to return what they had stolen (the persons of slaves) to its rightful owners (the freed slaves).

Daenerys has nothing like the power of the British empire at her back, enabling her to fight, threaten, and bribe, slavers to give up their practice.   What she does have, is the chance to kick-start a revolution against the slavers, from Slavers Bay to Volantis.  The so-called peace would have prevented that.

This

Plus we know the volantis elite already wanted action taken against the growing fire religion , half their tiger soilder caste slaves are followers  thus they had reached out to the golden company to crush the fire priests before any growing  slave revolution had  exploded with a religious jihad element too it to!!!

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17 hours ago, SeanF said:

1. It really is not debateable wheher the peace was unjust

Whether something is "just" or not is not an objective fact.

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Meereenese territory does not just consist of Meereen City.  It comprises a surrounding hinterland.  This market was being created on Meereenese territory.

Where is the boundary of Meereenese territory determined?

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The fact that the Yellow Whale favoured peace is neither here nor there

Cerainly it is. He was the leader with the most support, even while he favored peace after others had turned against it due to Drogon's return. His death from dysentery can be compared to King Robert's death from a boar, which did not make it foolish for Ned to have amassed evidence of Joffrey's bastardry or to send the king's banner against Gregor.

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Nothing about the Volantene armada suggests they were turning up on a goodwill visit.

Who claimed it was? Dany's peace deal was not made with them.

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How on earth can they claim to sincerely want peace while planning a massive foreign invasion?

They mustered forces to the city ruled by someone they had warred against, then used their presence as leverage to obtain a peace deal.

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Do you seriously imagine that when the armada turns up, the besieging army, the Yunkish lords, the Meereenese elites are all going to tell them to go home again?

In a counterfactual where Yurkhaz and/or Yezzan are still alive, my guess is that the Volantenes are invited to make demands for their own deal with Dany.

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But, that is contradicted by the Yunkish having sent out envoys to Volantis in the first place.

They did not know in advance the result of those envoys. With modern technology for communication & transportation, it could have just been a larger coalition arriving to make a deal.

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3.  "Permitted" to come and go is the key word.  Daenerys points out in reply that the blockade can be resumed at any point.   It's like the Tyrells cutting off the supply of food to Kings Landing.  "Permitting" the supply of food is not a concession, when you are the one blocking the supply of food in the first place.

The British could have chosen to attack the US at any point after Treaty of Paris, and the US could have attacked their holdings in Canada (and the war of 1812 did in fact break out years later). The whole point of a peace treaty between separate polities is that they are agreeing not to fight when they have the ability to do so.

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the Yellow Whale, who you consider a peacemaker

Not just me, that's in the text.

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I do not buy the idea that that would somehow have been a course of action that was morally superior to that which she chose, simply because it was honouring a bargain with the Good Masters.

No one is claiming that would have been "morally superior", though I'll note that a suggestion is merely a suggestion and not something Dany even disingenuously agreed to.

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hostes humanum generis by any yardstick

No, not by ANY yardstick. The Kingdom of Dahomey's principal export was slaves, and they were not regarded as the enemy of all humanity. It was really just the British who sought to suppress that export, and only after a certain point in time. Astapor was not at war even with anti-slavery polities like Braavos or Westeros when the story began.

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Nobody would raid for slaves, or seize captives on the high seas, unless there was a ready market for their "goods."

You are overlooking the possibility of raiding for slaves with the intention of keeping those slaves for yourself, as the Ironborn do with thralls.

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Daenerys has nothing like the power of the British empire at her back, enabling her to fight, threaten, and bribe, slavers to give up their practice.

She doesn't have that kind of bribe money, but she has in fact fought slavers over their slaves.

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 What she does have, is the chance to kick-start a revolution against the slavers, from Slavers Bay to Volantis.  The so-called peace would have prevented that.

How is a revolution in Volantis prevented unless that revolution would depend on Dany's power (which you contrasted with the British empire) intervening?

17 hours ago, SeanF said:

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument that Martin considered that the re-establishment of slavery and slave-trading, and feeding dwarves to lions, in-universe, were welcome developments

Who is claiming that? That's a separate claim from the peace agreement being real.

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If free people in Essos must be sacrificed for the “greater good”, then why not people like Edric Storm or Shireen

Now you're getting closer. GRRM is interested in "the human heart in conflict with itself", and there can only be such a conflict if there's actual weight on both sides. Stannis can only assent to sacrificing Edric Storm after Melisandre has convinced him that her magic is real and can kill the rival kings. We know of magic being powered by human sacrifice, from Qohoric blacksmiths to Nissa Nissa to Varys' castration to Dany's pyre, and even after Edric Storm escapes Stannis' ships are moved by winds generated from burning people. If magic didn't really exist in this series, then there wouldn't be any conflict. Finally, Davos shares the goals of Stannis & Melisandre in terms of defeating Stannis' enemies, and Davos has lost his own sons in pursuit of that goal which he still believes in. That's what gives his choice a meaning it wouldn't have if it were an enemy of Stannis who got Edric out. Dany's difficult decision between peace & war isn't difficult if peace was never an option.

16 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

someone was able to get his difficulties and his intentions perfectly.  It does not seem to imply : yes, the peace was real and the locusts were poisoned by the shavepate

I'll agree that the detail of who poisoned the locusts is more incidental to those essays and thus we can't as easily infer GRRM approved of that, but I can't say the same for the peace. Where is the difficulty if the peace was never real?

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he understood the political dificulties in Meereen and that every chapter she gives up something she values

Why would that be difficult if she's not giving it up FOR anything?

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until these essays, most fans only viewed her story in Meereen as just a filler and that she simply sucked at rulling

Wouldn't that actually be correct if the peace was a sham and she should have just killed the slavers immediately rather than wasting time making a deal?

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Anyway, the slaves also view Daenerys compromising with the masters as no good

That's a nice touch, and a parallel to the calls for war among the slavers while Yezzan is urging peace.

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Whether something is "just" or not is not an objective fact.

Where is the boundary of Meereenese territory determined?

Cerainly it is. He was the leader with the most support, even while he favored peace after others had turned against it due to Drogon's return. His death from dysentery can be compared to King Robert's death from a boar, which did not make it foolish for Ned to have amassed evidence of Joffrey's bastardry or to send the king's banner against Gregor.

Who claimed it was? Dany's peace deal was not made with them.

They mustered forces to the city ruled by someone they had warred against, then used their presence as leverage to obtain a peace deal.

In a counterfactual where Yurkhaz and/or Yezzan are still alive, my guess is that the Volantenes are invited to make demands for their own deal with Dany.

They did not know in advance the result of those envoys. With modern technology for communication & transportation, it could have just been a larger coalition arriving to make a deal.

The British could have chosen to attack the US at any point after Treaty of Paris, and the US could have attacked their holdings in Canada (and the war of 1812 did in fact break out years later). The whole point of a peace treaty between separate polities is that they are agreeing not to fight when they have the ability to do so.

Not just me, that's in the text.

No one is claiming that would have been "morally superior", though I'll note that a suggestion is merely a suggestion and not something Dany even disingenuously agreed to.

No, not by ANY yardstick. The Kingdom of Dahomey's principal export was slaves, and they were not regarded as the enemy of all humanity. It was really just the British who sought to suppress that export, and only after a certain point in time. Astapor was not at war even with anti-slavery polities like Braavos or Westeros when the story began.

You are overlooking the possibility of raiding for slaves with the intention of keeping those slaves for yourself, as the Ironborn do with thralls.

She doesn't have that kind of bribe money, but she has in fact fought slavers over their slaves.

How is a revolution in Volantis prevented unless that revolution would depend on Dany's power (which you contrasted with the British empire) intervening?

Who is claiming that? That's a separate claim from the peace agreement being real.

Now you're getting closer. GRRM is interested in "the human heart in conflict with itself", and there can only be such a conflict if there's actual weight on both sides. Stannis can only assent to sacrificing Edric Storm after Melisandre has convinced him that her magic is real and can kill the rival kings. We know of magic being powered by human sacrifice, from Qohoric blacksmiths to Nissa Nissa to Varys' castration to Dany's pyre, and even after Edric Storm escapes Stannis' ships are moved by winds generated from burning people. If magic didn't really exist in this series, then there wouldn't be any conflict. Finally, Davos shares the goals of Stannis & Melisandre in terms of defeating Stannis' enemies, and Davos has lost his own sons in pursuit of that goal which he still believes in. That's what gives his choice a meaning it wouldn't have if it were an enemy of Stannis who got Edric out. Dany's difficult decision between peace & war isn't difficult if peace was never an option.

I'll agree that the detail of who poisoned the locusts is more incidental to those essays and thus we can't as easily infer GRRM approved of that, but I can't say the same for the peace. Where is the difficulty if the peace was never real?

Why would that be difficult if she's not giving it up FOR anything?

Wouldn't that actually be correct if the peace was a sham and she should have just killed the slavers immediately rather than wasting time making a deal?

That's a nice touch, and a parallel to the calls for war among the slavers while Yezzan is urging peace.

1. How does the establishment of a slave market outside Meereen represent a "just peace"?  

2. Meereenese territory extends 150 miles upriver, and at least 163 miles down the coast.  Therefore, the market is on Meereenese soil.

3.  Trying to claim that the Volantenes have nothing to do with their allies sitting outside Meereen's walls is disingenuous.  If I ally with someone to fight on my behalf against an enemy, and then profess to make peace with that enemy without even telling them that this third force is on its way, it is fair to say that the peace is a sham.   If the Yunkish believed in peace they would have notified the defenders that they had sent envoys to Volantis, and they would have sent out fresh envoys to inform the Volantenes of the peace deal.

It would be like saying that even if it turned out that the slavers were behind the poisoned locusts, it makes no difference to the sincerity of their efforts to make peace with  her.

You're also ignoring the motivation of the Volantenes.  They see Free Meereen as an existential threat to their very existence.  And, they are correct to do so, as we can see through Tyrion's POV.   If Daenerys and her followers are brought back in chains to Volantis and brutally executed, that clearly demonstrates to their own slaves that they'd better stay in line.

I really don't think that either Hizdahr and co., or the Yunkish, will be manning the defences against Volantis, do you?  In fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that they will ally with their fellow slavers.

4.  After the Treaty of Paris, both the British and Americans stood their forces down.  There is no sign of the slaver coalition doing so.  They remain on Meereenese soil, their ships remain in Meereen's harbour , and they're already keeping hold of their hostages, and upping their demands.  Nor did the US agree to peace at Paris, while simultaneously encouraging powerful enemies of United Kingdom to join in the conquest of Canada.

5.     Any nation that acted like Astapor would be treated as a rogue state, once its victims had sufficient power to fight back, or once people were prepared to fight back on its victims' behalf.   As European nations improved their naval power, so they increasingly switched from paying protection money to the corsair states of North Africa to attacking them, in order to prevent them acquiring slaves and to free those that had been taken.  The links between slave-trading and piracy are obvious, both in-universe, and in real life.  Pirates take prisoners on the high seas, to sell as slaves.  The Ghiscari masters pay them for these slaves.

Ultimately, the French obliterated the Kingdom of Dahomey.

6.  Regarding the "human heart in conflict with itself", the right course of action might be unclear to a character in-universe, but clear as crystal to a reader, given that we have a wider range of knowledge and perspective than that character has, and because we don't share their in-universe prejudices.

It's plain as a pikestaff to most readers, that peace with the slavers can neither be just, nor lasting, with a huge invasion fleet on the way, because we have the POV's of Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion to fill us in on the real situation.  Through them, we can see just how ruthless these people are, and how determined they are to restore the ancien regime.  Daenerys, with her more limited knowledge of the situation, thinks a deal may be possible, even as she loathes it.  If she knew the Volantenes and Iron Fleet were on their way, she would never dream of making peace.

We also learn, through these other points of view, that the slaver coalition is far weaker than it looks, from Dany's POV.  

It's plain to us, that Stannis would be going down a very dark path if he cruelly murdered Edric Storm (or Shireen) for what he perceived as the greater good. Ser Davos is speaking and acting for the reader by spiriting Edric to safety, and by speaking up for him.  What may appear a hard choice for Stannis, is not really so, at least from an ethical viewpoint. 

Ditto Jon, if he prized "the Nights Watch must take no part", over and above saving innocents from the family of Caligulas that rules Winterfell.   For Jon, it require a real break with what he has been indoctrinated into believing.  To a reader, it's quite plain that Nights Watch neutrality is irrelevant to the current situation that the North finds itself in.

An issue might seem to pose a moral dilemma to a character in-universe, without being one in truth. That slave and free cannot co-exist, that one or the other must prevail, should be as obvious to the reader as it had become to many Americans in 1860.

 

Edited by SeanF
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4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I'll agree that the detail of who poisoned the locusts is more incidental to those essays and thus we can't as easily infer GRRM approved of that, but I can't say the same for the peace. Where is the difficulty if the peace was never real?

The difficulty resides in the fact that she has to battle two wars : one within the city (the Sons of the Harpy) and one outside (Yunkai and she is unaware of the Volatins and it's coalition being on their way) with and army that consists in :

Her host numbered more than eighty thousand after Yunkai, but fewer than a quarter of them were soldiers. The rest . . . well, Ser Jorah called them mouths with feet, and soon they would be starving. (ASOS, Daenerys V)

"Men can always fight, Your Grace. Ask rather if we can win. Dying is easy, but victory comes hard. Your freedmen are half-trained and unblooded. Your sellswords once served your foes, and once a man turns his cloak he will not scruple to turn it again. You have two dragons who cannot be controlled, and a third that may be lost to you. Beyond these walls your only friends are the Lhazarene, who have no taste for war." (ADWD, Daenerys V)

Plus a plague (the pale mare), bring order and trade, planting, build a new economy in a city that their most valuable were slaves, passing laws, taxes, holding court. Is this little to you?

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would that be difficult if she's not giving it up FOR anything?

She gave all up for a peace that was ultimately unfair and clearly shaky. Why do you think Yunaki will fight for Dany and her people against Volantis, when I showed you that the majority were waiting for them to sack Meereen?

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Dany's difficult decision between peace & war isn't difficult if peace was never an option.

It is, because what she really wanted was a break from war and most of the people who followed her are non combatants. She is not the kind of person who simply wants to kill all the masters and she tried to give them a chance but ultimately war was inevitable. Why is so hard for you to accept the proof that the yunkish made a farce from said peace and that they only waited for Volantis?

 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's a nice touch, and a parallel to the calls for war among the slavers while Yezzan is urging peace.

Yezzan is dead. Are you saying that the slaves are wrong for not wanting peace with the masters when said peace involved them remaining slaves? Are said masters (yunkish) willing to free them? Are you suggesting that the slaves do not have a reason to riot, or that they shouldn't?

Edited by Oana_Mika
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@FictionIsntReal btw, this is from TWOW Barristan sample chaper. Take a peak if you wish to know how much the yunkish are on Meereen's side :

 

 

Spoiler
Through the gloom of night the dead men flew, raining down upon the city streets. The riper corpses would fall to pieces in the air, and burst when they came smashing down onto the bricks, scattering worms and maggots and worse things. Others would bounce against the sides of pyramids and towers, leaving smears of blood and gore to mark the places where they'd struck.
 
Huge as they were, the Yunkish trebuchets did not have the range to throw their grisly burdens deep into the city. Most of the dead were landing just inside the walls, or slamming off barbicans, parapets, and defensive towers. With the six sisters arrayed in a rough crescent around Meereen, every part of the city was being struck, save only the river districts to the north. No trebuchet could throw across the width of the Skahazadhan.

 

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

1. How does the establishment of a slave market outside Meereen represent a "just peace"?  

2. Meereenese territory extends 150 miles upriver, and at least 163 miles down the coast.  Therefore, the market is on Meereenese soil.

3.  Trying to claim that the Volantenes have nothing to do with their allies sitting outside Meereen's walls is disingenuous.  If I ally with someone to fight on my behalf against an enemy, and then profess to make peace with that enemy without even telling them that this third force is on its way, it is fair to say that the peace is a sham.   If the Yunkish believed in peace they would have notified the defenders that they had sent envoys to Volantis, and they would have sent out fresh envoys to inform the Volantenes of the peace deal.

It would be like saying that even if it turned out that the slavers were behind the poisoned locusts, it makes no difference to the sincerity of their efforts to make peace with  her.

You're also ignoring the motivation of the Volantenes.  They see Free Meereen as an existential threat to their very existence.  And, they are correct to do so, as we can see through Tyrion's POV.   If Daenerys and her followers are brought back in chains to Volantis and brutally executed, that clearly demonstrates to their own slaves that they'd better stay in line.

I really don't think that either Hizdahr and co., or the Yunkish, will be manning the defences against Volantis, do you?  In fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that they will ally with their fellow slavers.

4.  After the Treaty of Paris, both the British and Americans stood their forces down.  There is no sign of the slaver coalition doing so.  They remain on Meereenese soil, their ships remain in Meereen's harbour , and they're already keeping hold of their hostages, and upping their demands.  Nor did the US agree to peace at Paris, while simultaneously encouraging powerful enemies of United Kingdom to join in the conquest of Canada.

5.     Any nation that acted like Astapor would be treated as a rogue state, once its victims had sufficient power to fight back, or once people were prepared to fight back on its victims' behalf.   As European nations improved their naval power, so they increasingly switched from paying protection money to the corsair states of North Africa to attacking them, in order to prevent them acquiring slaves and to free those that had been taken.  The links between slave-trading and piracy are obvious, both in-universe, and in real life.  Pirates take prisoners on the high seas, to sell as slaves.  The Ghiscari masters pay them for these slaves.

Ultimately, the French obliterated the Kingdom of Dahomey.

6.  Regarding the "human heart in conflict with itself", the right course of action might be unclear to a character in-universe, but clear as crystal to a reader, given that we have a wider range of knowledge and perspective than that character has, and because we don't share their in-universe prejudices.

It's plain as a pikestaff to most readers, that peace with the slavers can neither be just, nor lasting, with a huge invasion fleet on the way, because we have the POV's of Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion to fill us in on the real situation.  Through them, we can see just how ruthless these people are, and how determined they are to restore the ancien regime.  Daenerys, with her more limited knowledge of the situation, thinks a deal may be possible, even as she loathes it.  If she knew the Volantenes and Iron Fleet were on their way, she would never dream of making peace.

We also learn, through these other points of view, that the slaver coalition is far weaker than it looks, from Dany's POV.  

It's plain to us, that Stannis would be going down a very dark path if he cruelly murdered Edric Storm (or Shireen) for what he perceived as the greater good. Ser Davos is speaking and acting for the reader by spiriting Edric to safety, and by speaking up for him.  What may appear a hard choice for Stannis, is not really so, at least from an ethical viewpoint. 

Ditto Jon, if he prized "the Nights Watch must take no part", over and above saving innocents from the family of Caligulas that rules Winterfell.   For Jon, it require a real break with what he has been indoctrinated into believing.  To a reader, it's quite plain that Nights Watch neutrality is irrelevant to the current situation that the North finds itself in.

An issue might seem to pose a moral dilemma to a character in-universe, without being one in truth. That slave and free cannot co-exist, that one or the other must prevail, should be as obvious to the reader as it had become to many Americans in 1860.

 

This 

Agreed theres no way a slave market being set up outside  mereens walls isnt a direct provocation, the slavers know the volantene fleet and new ghis legions are on their way thus are acting like they have already won. With the insurgency raging ,astopor fallen  and now dany gone it would seem like a forgone conclusion that slavery is comming back in a big way. The sheer mass of forces aligned makes it look impssible to see it going any other way

 

That is unless  as we readers know appearances can be decieving, that the strongest elements of the slavers army (the new ghis  legions) , slave leaders and various niche mercs from nearby pro slave cities (the slingers and crossbowmen)  have bloody flux among  them (thus will not only lose but retreat back and bring deadly plauge to slavery strongpoints) ALSO  that the seemingly mightly volantis fleet may be riddled with pro slavery troops and is about to be ambushed by the ironborn ,  that 2 sellsword companies are about to turn sides  mid battle and finaly that danys forces arent waiting and are gonna mount a suprise offensive !! All in all the stage is set for such a comprehensive  loss  for the slavers from such a seemingly easy win that its hard to see this not kickstarting the anti slave war essos needs!

 

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3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Wouldn't that actually be correct if the peace was a sham and she should have just killed the slavers immediately rather than wasting time making a deal?

And no. Her Meereen storyline would not be just a filler and she would not be sucking at ruling with the peace being a sham because it shows that she is very willing to compromise, she is conciliatory, she is resourceful (she brought food and coin in Meereen despite that without slaves it had little to offer), it shows that depite the fact that most of her army not being soldiers, despite having to fight two wars she knows how to organise her people, she knows how to make allies and so on. You entirely missed her ADWD point : ruling is hard  

 

One thing that I am trying to get at in the books, the political aspect if you would, is to kind of show that this stuff is hard. I think that an awful lot of fantasy and even some great fantasy falls under the mistake of assuming that a good man would be a good king and all that is necessary is to be a decent human being and then when you are king everything will go swimmingly. Tolkien is great but we never get into the nitty gritty of Aragorn ruling. What is his tax policy? How does he feel about crop rotation? How does he handle land disputes between two nobles, both of whom think that they should have the village, so they burn it down to establish their claim. This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard and I wanted to show that with repeated examples in my books with my kings and hand of the kings - the prime minister if you would - trying to rule. And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard. You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that - GRRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJCb3xyWyAg

 

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