How will karma catch up with Randyll Tarly ?

[GZ Bloodraven]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

TBH, I think Dany burning Lord Tarly would be doing Sam a favour.  It's like killing Craster.  I doubt Gilly feels any regrets for the death of that old swine.

He's probably just going to die with the rest of Cersei's army when the fiercely loyal Golden Company shreds them. Sam's brother is fighting with him though. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I think that Sam will be involved, if not directly then in the periphery. I think that Sam holding Heartsbane will be one of the last things Lord Randyll sees. Perhaps this would be an opportunity for him to see one of his life's great sins overcome and grant him a little peace at the end, but I think it's more likely that he'll die in despair.

Was Sam's stated fear of cutting one of his sisters with Heartsbane a Nissa Nissa/ Lightbringer allusion?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Was Sam's stated fear of cutting one of his sisters with Heartsbane a Nissa Nissa/ Lightbringer allusion?

That's creepy.  I think all seeing Sam with Heartsbane would do to the old man would be to piss him off.  Remember he doesn't like Sam at all.  Sam isn't worthy of the family sword or name.  Nothing Sam could do will change this guy's mind.  

As to heartstrings, Sam got Jeor as a father figure.  Can't imagine why he would regret any death his natural father would encounter.  Randyll Tarly is a bad person and Sam knows this.   Sam understands his father hates him and doesn't seem to want the man's approval in his thoughts.  He thinks of his mother and sister, not the old man.  If something happens to little Dickon, sure Sam would be sad.  Dickon is a little boy about Bran's age, but I can't see this sadness over Randyll at all.  

[Curled Finger]

Dickon is a little older than I remembered.  He is a squire now, so 10 to 13 years old.  I was thinking closer to 8 or 9.  

[Lord of Oldstones]

He will have Hornhill under safe hand. Indulgent Lords with modern morality are unsuitable to this cold hard world. Randyll is very smart. He has even secured good trade town like Maidenpoole for House Tarly. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think all seeing Sam with Heartsbane would do to the old man would be to piss him off.  Remember he doesn't like Sam at all.  Sam isn't worthy of the family sword or name.  Nothing Sam could do will change this guy's mind.  

Yeah there would definitely have to be some action between now and that death for Lord Randyll to be anything but pissed off and broken to see Sam wielding Heartsbane and I agree that Sam himself will never change Randyll's opinion of him. I don't think that door's completely closed though.

You said you've been looking at VS swords, didn't you? What do you make of Heartsbane?  Sam will probably never be the guy to wield a two handed greatsword but it's going to have to be drafted into the fight at some point, wouldn't you think?  I can't help but associating hearts with heart trees so see something ominous in its name. 

 

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yeah there would definitely have to be some action between now and that death for Lord Randyll to be anything but pissed off and broken to see Sam wielding Heartsbane and I agree that Sam himself will never change Randyll's opinion of him. I don't think that door's completely closed though.

You said you've been looking at VS swords, didn't you? What do you make of Heartsbane?  Sam will probably never be the guy to wield a two handed greatsword but it's going to have to be drafted into the fight at some point, wouldn't you think?  I can't help but associating hearts with heart trees so see something ominous in its name. 

 

The swords are what got me into this blasted story in the first meaningful way, thank you.  Heartsbane is an easy one.  It's the last greatsword hence you need a big guy to handle it.  This sword is all in the name, as is Darksister or Oathkeeper insofar as who will end up with it.  Heartsbane will end up with Jorah Mormont ultimately.  Sam's not a swordsman.  It is not the trees, but the eternally broken heart with this one.  Jorah is of the North and those heart trees.  He will find his way to where he belongs and do the right thing despite himself.  He is after all, a knight at heart.  

Oathkeeper could not have been better named for her wielder.  While Darksister has a troubled past it has no better match in the current story than a troubled sister who has known darkness better than most.  Who better than a blindly courageous rogue who can change faces and see through animal's eyes to wield Visenya's sword than Arya?  Sometimes it is no more than the name that makes the match perfect.  

[Hugorfonics]

I like this

21 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Someone important has to contract Greyscale from JonCon.

After all the GC were acting like Highgarden doesn't command real loyalty, which to me screams Tarly.

But I do think it'd be fun for Sam to pull a Tyrion and hear "go fuck yourself dad". Not that I think Sam would like strike Randyll down with the fury of heartsbane but mostly because I don't think he could swing it. 

But if like the stories of the Slayer carry, and this guy, who since asos had shown many and remarkable signs of heroism, if he manages to punk Euron or do something meaningful, which is probable, then Randyll would look at him differently, and be like, all those years all those warlocks and tight cardigans, to which Sam could be like "go fuck yourself dad, enjoy the grayscale bitch". 

I think that'd be fun

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I like this

After all the GC were acting like Highgarden doesn't command real loyalty, which to me screams Tarly.

But I do think it'd be fun for Sam to pull a Tyrion and hear "go fuck yourself dad". Not that I think Sam would like strike Randyll down with the fury of heartsbane but mostly because I don't think he could swing it. 

But if like the stories of the Slayer carry, and this guy, who since asos had shown many and remarkable signs of heroism, if he manages to punk Euron or do something meaningful, which is probable, then Randyll would look at him differently, and be like, all those years all those warlocks and tight cardigans, to which Sam could be like "go fuck yourself dad, enjoy the grayscale bitch". 

I think that'd be fun

Someone will end up with greyscale, that's for certain.   I like Tarly for it.  Do it!  I agree with all of it right up to that last bit.  Sam wouldn't be able to just leave his father or anyone like that.  He isn't capable of it.  There is no apathy in this character.  No, he would have to do something to help, to save, to make Randyll think he deserves something from Sam.  While it would be fun, Sam isn't written with that much fun in him.  We talk a lot about Arya maybe giving LSH her due but I think it would be horrifying and right in a way if Sam had to be the one to put his dear old dad out of his misery.  (I hate myself for writing it.)  Lousy Randyll would curse him and Sam would have to find the kindness in himself to do it and it would suck to read and there would be no good in it for Sam, but it would be the right thing to do.  Oh that sucks.  

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Someone will end up with greyscale, that's for certain.   I like Tarly for it.  Do it!  I agree with all of it right up to that last bit.  Sam wouldn't be able to just leave his father or anyone like that.  He isn't capable of it.  There is no apathy in this character.  No, he would have to do something to help, to save, to make Randyll think he deserves something from Sam.  While it would be fun, Sam isn't written with that much fun in him.  We talk a lot about Arya maybe giving LSH her due but I think it would be horrifying and right in a way if Sam had to be the one to put his dear old dad out of his misery.  (I hate myself for writing it.)  Lousy Randyll would curse him and Sam would have to find the kindness in himself to do it and it would suck to read and there would be no good in it for Sam, but it would be the right thing to do.  Oh that sucks.  

Yea for sure. Collateral damage maybe? What's bad for Randyll would also be bad for Sam, definitely. Honestly knowing Sam in a place like the citadel the rascal may have wind up discovering a cure for Greyscale and saving the bastard. Not exactly karma cathing up.

 

I like Sam. Not as much Stoneheart who I don't like as much as Arya, so I don't want any of them to die or kinslay or wallow in unpleasantry, I think. Thing is none of them are my favorite, that's the dwarf by a mile. I loved him when I was convinced he tried to kill Bran and continued loving him when he went to KL to do justice. That one line about how my sister's confused me for Ned Stark, oh that shit blew me out the water. Tyrion the Lannister lackey, great writing. Then he killed his dad and is living the curse of a kinslayer. Crossbow bolts thundering in his mind like a machine gun, only interpreted by the riddle/fuck you son of wherever whores go. Adwd Tyrion is like a souffle that's got all the preparation done and has been aged to perfection, so while the ingredients sounds horrid and depressing and not funny in the least it's in fact, yes horrid, but actually uplifting and downright hysterical. Anyways I think it'd be lame for Sam (and Arya) to steal Tyrions whole shtick but I also don't think a little pinch of psychosis will make the reading of a Westerosi sucks, if anything they'll fit right at home!

(Is Sam not fun? Hmm, I would say he's fun, not like a barrel of monkeys, but a barrel of something. Is writing drafts of every possible way of doom fun? Not for me, but I see how someone would think it is. Is not sending any of those messages when all types of doom is happening fun? Yea I mean Im smiling. Then he's like carry me until you die and become a zombie and then I'll just kill ya, then he shows up to CB like a month late rolling in like a boss with a pregnant lady on his arm. And he gets straight to lying to every politician he sees about seemingly every motive and dishes out a cart load of mudslinging. Like, get this man to Washington! Idk he whines all the time, and doesn't seem like someone I'd want to spend time with, but if I did I'd have some fun. Like he himself is annoying, but definitely knows how to get down. Like his boy said I hired some girls for the night, take any one  you want but mine, so he rocked him. Dudes a barrel)

[Nevets]

I love Sam.  But I can't find it in me to hate his dad.  Not that I like the guy; I don't.  But as villains go, he's definitely small beer.  I completely understand why he's done what he's done.  Let's face it; Sam would have made a poor Lord of Horn Hill.  He's too weak, in body and spirit, or at least was.  The big irony is that the Nights Watch is probably the best thing that's happened to him.  His experiences with them have made him a man.

If Lord Tarly dies storming the battlements somewhere, I'll be satisfied.  Though seeing Sam as a real man, secure in his own skin, would be nice too, even (or especially) if he doesn't really believe it.  I guess I would like him to realize that the son he despised is actually worthy of his respect.

[James Arryn]

Two caveats:

1) Randyll Tarly actually devotes more of his own time to Sam’s upbringing than almost any father we see in the series. Constantly taking him on trips to establish possible marriages, training him personally in arms, going through literally a dozen masters at arms trying to find one who could get through to Sam, etc. and he is not exactly a man without many other responsibilities. But he often prioritizes Sam. Not because he’s a warm loving father, but because the person he invests his house and thousands year old legacy to is the cornerstone for their sustenance. It’s that important to him. 

2) Randyll Tarly is considered possibly the greatest soldier/commander in Westeros. In part because, like all great commanders, he can read people well and therefore have a greater ability to predict their responses to provocation. Does anyone think that either Sam or Randyll gave any serious thought to the possibility that Sam would defy him and therefore actually be murdered? It was a threat that both knew would never need to be enforced.

That said, RT’s enough of a hard bastard that it’s possible, probable even, that in the one-in-a-million chance his cowardly son stands up to him, he’d carry out the threat. Feudal noble families are not typically well-served by leaders afraid of violence/blood/shouting/etc. and RT is all ruthless pragmatism and decisive action. He’d…probably do it. If he didn’t he’d find a way to blame it on Sam’s mom or w/e, the ‘gentler sex’ maybe, or have Sam taken to the Wall as some kind of invented criminal and get his way without needing to resort to killing his son. 

[Nathan Stark]

18 hours ago, Nevets said:

I love Sam.  But I can't find it in me to hate his dad.  Not that I like the guy; I don't.  But as villains go, he's definitely small beer.  I completely understand why he's done what he's done.  Let's face it; Sam would have made a poor Lord of Horn Hill.  He's too weak, in body and spirit, or at least was.  The big irony is that the Nights Watch is probably the best thing that's happened to him.  His experiences with them have made him a man.

If Lord Tarly dies storming the battlements somewhere, I'll be satisfied.  Though seeing Sam as a real man, secure in his own skin, would be nice too, even (or especially) if he doesn't really believe it.  I guess I would like him to realize that the son he despised is actually worthy of his respect.

Here's the thing though: Sam was weak in body and spirit because of what Randyll did to him, not because he started out that way. Randyll tried to force Sam to develop martial skills that he was never suited for, and he humiliated Sam endlessly for the skills that he actually had. Sam loved reading, dancing, singing, and eating. As a potential Lord of Horn Hill, he could have been wicked smart, socially astute and generous with throwing great feasts, all of which are skills a House should want if it is to survive. Randyll thinks all a great Lord should be able to do is be a good soldier and fight wars, which is childish. He thinks singing, dancing and reading are for girls and so are inferior, which is equally childish. Randyll Tarly never developed emotionally past the age of 13, and so never grew to see the potential value of what he had in Sam. All he could see was that his son was fat and girly, and because Randyll is fundamentally a child, he felt ashamed to have a son like that.

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Here's the thing though: Sam was weak in body and spirit because of what Randyll did to him, not because he started out that way. Randyll tried to force Sam to develop martial skills that he was never suited for, and he humiliated Sam endlessly for the skills that he actually had. Sam loved reading, dancing, singing, and eating. As a potential Lord of Horn Hill, he could have been wicked smart, socially astute and generous with throwing great feasts, all of which are skills a House should want if it is to survive. Randyll thinks all a great Lord should be able to do is be a good soldier and fight wars, which is childish. He thinks singing, dancing and reading are for girls and so are inferior, which is equally childish. Randyll Tarly never developed emotionally past the age of 13, and so never grew to see the potential value of what he had in Sam. All he could see was that his son was fat and girly, and because Randyll is fundamentally a child, he felt ashamed to have a son like that.

Sorta

Tywin/tyrion both prove you can be feared without any martial prowess if you are considered smart/ruthless. The problem sam had was hes soft physically and mentaly too ..he wouldnt stand up to bullies , he'd be poor at commanding his landed knights and men at arms to obey him let alone house tarlys enemies as he cant stomach confrontation. 

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Sorta

Tywin/tyrion both prove you can be feared without any martial prowess if you are considered smart/ruthless. The problem sam had was hes soft physically and mentaly too ..he wouldnt stand up to bullies , he'd be poor at commanding his landed knights and men at arms to obey him let alone house tarlys enemies as he cant stomach confrontation. 

He'd have been pretty good at it if Randyll had bothered to teach him. I don't know how anyone can read Sam's story ark in A Storm of Swords, where he kills an Other, guides a girl and an infant through hostile wilderness, braves the Nightfort and manipulates an election, and conclude that Sam is soft, physically or mentally. He always had that in him. His useless meathead of a father just spent more time torturing Sam and trying to force him into being something he clearly wasn't, but all that did was fuck Sam up physically and mentally. Randyll was the cause of the problem, Randyll and his childish, macho worldview. 

[James West]

Most objections to Randyll are coming from people who disapprove of how he pushed Samwell to the Night's Watch.  It was harsh but also necessary because Samwell would have made for an incompetent leader for the people he will inherit from his father.  Randyll was mostly serving the interests of the people of his land.  Partially also because of his own vanity and his inflated sense of family glory.  He deserves some grief but not too much.  Too much pride is a trait shared by Lannisters, Starks, and others as well.

We do no know if he will take the side of Aegon the Blackfyre.  Randyll and the Tyrells are getting their breads buttered by the Lannisters.  Aegon has nothing of comparable value to offer at the moment.  The legitimate monarch and ruler of Westeros is Daenerys Targaryen.  Randyll would be foolish to oppose her.  Randyll is deserving of fatal karma if he were to be so foolish as to oppose a real Targaryen whose identity is proven by her dragons.  

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

He'd have been pretty good at it if Randyll had bothered to teach him. I don't know how anyone can read Sam's story ark in A Storm of Swords, where he kills an Other, guides a girl and an infant through hostile wilderness, braves the Nightfort and manipulates an election, and conclude that Sam is soft, physically or mentally. He always had that in him. His useless meathead of a father just spent more time torturing Sam and trying to force him into being something he clearly wasn't, but all that did was fuck Sam up physically and mentally. Randyll was the cause of the problem, Randyll and his childish, macho worldview. 

But thats all stuff he did try and teach him 

The stuff he did was only after jon snow stood up.for him and he had to virtualy be carried from the fist loss. He stabbed the other when his back was to the wall and he had no other option ...its not until wayyyy later does he finaly stand up to a human when he confronts daeron , a goddamn singer and even then its after days and days of leaving aegon to die slow!!!

That sort of unwillingness to stand up to people or just speak firmly and confidently  could be fatal for a lord

[TheLastWolf]

Punishment?

What these minor lords value over money and their dwindling might (in the face of someone like Tywin)?

His Valyrian Steel Sword 

He shall live to see it torn from his house or at least not pass on to his Dickson whatever.

Or maybe to a child born of incest (in his eyes...), a certain Steelsong...

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

He'd have been pretty good at it if Randyll had bothered to teach him. I don't know how anyone can read Sam's story ark in A Storm of Swords, where he kills an Other, guides a girl and an infant through hostile wilderness, braves the Nightfort and manipulates an election, and conclude that Sam is soft, physically or mentally. He always had that in him. His useless meathead of a father just spent more time torturing Sam and trying to force him into being something he clearly wasn't, but all that did was fuck Sam up physically and mentally. Randyll was the cause of the problem, Randyll and his childish, macho worldview. 

Didn’t Randyll and his worldview also raise Dickon?

We’re getting into nature vs. nurture here, and as the cliche answer is ‘bit o’ both’ I think your certainty that it’s all Randyll is unwarranted. What we can say is that for most of their relationship he was the only adult, therefore a greater share of the responsibility that it didn’t work out…as opposed to actual fault…lies with him. Fault is harder to say without throwing out a lot of data on the nature side of the ongoing debate. 

But to address the very modern view that it was silly/wrong/immature for Randyll to prioritize martial skill and courage…this IS a violent feudal society. In practically every violent feudal society in human history, martial ability was a, often THE prioritized skill set for leaders. In many such societies people with physical imperfections that limited their martial ability were disqualified from becoming king/leader, and often ritualistic maiming or blinding or w/e was used instead of assassination to eliminate political rivals. We can look back on them and tut tut about their failure to see the inherent value in having a leader who loves to dance, but imo it’s pretty arrogant to decide that most of humanity got it wrong in terms of what mattered to them and their survival more than we who mostly grow up in very different societies emphasizing very different aspects of our natures. Even legendarily wise and learned leaders like Alfred the Great had to prove themselves on the battlefield before being an acceptable leader, and he was called ‘the Wild Boar of Ashdown’ long before he was called Great. 
 

Edit: it’s also bothered me how often discussions about ASOIAF reverts to deciding who deserves what kind of violent death. I find that mindset incompatible with modern sensibilities. Now possibly if I grew up in a violent feudal society I would see it differently, but to see it as a commonly mused over rubric in a community of people who did not, it seems weird and more than a little creepy. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Edit: it’s also bothered me how often discussions about ASOIAF reverts to deciding who deserves what kind of violent death. I find that mindset incompatible with modern sensibilities. Now possibly if I grew up in a violent feudal society I would see it differently, but to see it as a commonly mused over rubric in a community of people who did not, it seems weird and more than a little creepy. 

Ah James, I don't think it's weird or creepy so much as simple fantasy.  How many of us in real life would actually hurt anyone?  How many of us cradle insects and carry them out of the house?  ASOIAF is brilliant.  These characters and situations draw our ire and judgement and concern and we have our lines of sensibility.  I like getting outside myself and saying Fuck the King with an angry Hound when I would never in my wildest moment say it out loud on this side of the page.  This conversation is a testament to the power of well drawn characters and that's all, my friend.  Randyll and Sam get under our skin.  ASOIAF is also a great puzzle.  Maybe one of us got that Randyll end piece right here.  That's part of the fun too, guessing what Martin will do with these nasty people he's drawn.  Relax, you are not among dangerous violent people, just a bunch of fantasy geeks.