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How will karma catch up with Randyll Tarly ?


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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Edit: it’s also bothered me how often discussions about ASOIAF reverts to deciding who deserves what kind of violent death. I find that mindset incompatible with modern sensibilities. Now possibly if I grew up in a violent feudal society I would see it differently, but to see it as a commonly mused over rubric in a community of people who did not, it seems weird and more than a little creepy. 

To be fair though I think most people have wished death on another real person at least once, perhaps even a violent death...

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6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair though I think most people have wished death on another real person at least once, perhaps even a violent death...

This walks that line, Peaches.  Within the bounds of the conversations we have here as adult readers are we actually wishing anything on characters or simply trying to use the tools Martin has given us to figure out what will happen?  I've read through here a couple of times.  I believe I said Randyll should be beheaded for treason.  This supposes Cersei or someone not in Aegon's camp would take him prisoner (oh the embarrassment for such a great military mind) and publicly lop his big head off (shame, shame shame).  What I didn't take into consideration is in that scenario House Tarly would likely be given over to someone else.  So my idea won't likely work.  Still I don't see Sam being an active participant in his father's demise, either.  

In a book club, which is really all this is here, we aren't dealing with reality.  This is an epic fantasy series with magic and dragons and all sorts of strange things.  We are required to suspend our modern morality and beliefs in order to immerse, so we do and are transported into some of the best story telling of the last century.  Death is so final.  Permanent.  In Martins' case it allows for more story to open up.  In reality story merely ends.  

Once Dany finally gets to Westeros and all the conversations are in their 3rd iterations, we shall find ourselves on a dark and stormy night, Peaches.  Everyone I have ever wished dead is gone now and I would like to tell you the story of that last one.  I would like to hear your stories whatever state those you may have wished death on may be in.  Until then, we have a harpy to identify and heroes to match with swords and this wonderful epic to keep us from thinking about the people who bug us! 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

This walks that line, Peaches.  Within the bounds of the conversations we have here as adult readers are we actually wishing anything on characters or simply trying to use the tools Martin has given us to figure out what will happen?  I've read through here a couple of times.  I believe I said Randyll should be beheaded for treason.  This supposes Cersei or someone not in Aegon's camp would take him prisoner (oh the embarrassment for such a great military mind) and publicly lop his big head off (shame, shame shame).  What I didn't take into consideration is in that scenario House Tarly would likely be given over to someone else.  So my idea won't likely work.  Still I don't see Sam being an active participant in his father's demise, either.  

In a book club, which is really all this is here, we aren't dealing with reality.  This is an epic fantasy series with magic and dragons and all sorts of strange things.  We are required to suspend our modern morality and beliefs in order to immerse, so we do and are transported into some of the best story telling of the last century.  Death is so final.  Permanent.  In Martins' case it allows for more story to open up.  In reality story merely ends.  

Once Dany finally gets to Westeros and all the conversations are in their 3rd iterations, we shall find ourselves on a dark and stormy night, Peaches.  Everyone I have ever wished dead is gone now and I would like to tell you the story of that last one.  I would like to hear your stories whatever state those you may have wished death on may be in.  Until then, we have a harpy to identify and heroes to match with swords and this wonderful epic to keep us from thinking about the people who bug us! 

I agree, what I meant was that most people have thought/wished, even if they don't really mean it, that X real person was dead, so in comparison wishing fantasy characters dead is more tame...but as you say, that is not always the same as trying to analyse how they will die.

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1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree, what I meant was that most people have though/wished, even if they don't really mean it, that X real person was dead, so in comparison wishing fantasy characters dead is more tame...but as you say, that is not always the same as trying to analyse how they will die.

Great, but no date?  You would rather spend a dark and stormy evening with Corvo or James than story swapping with me?  

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9 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

But thats all stuff he did try and teach him 

The stuff he did was only after jon snow stood up.for him and he had to virtualy be carried from the fist loss. He stabbed the other when his back was to the wall and he had no other option ...its not until wayyyy later does he finaly stand up to a human when he confronts daeron , a goddamn singer and even then its after days and days of leaving aegon to die slow!!!

That sort of unwillingness to stand up to people or just speak firmly and confidently  could be fatal for a lord

No, he didn't "try to teach him." He hired  a bunch of goons to do things like drench Sam in blood, hang him up in chains for a night, thwack him around with a sword, all to "toughen Sam up." What is that "teaching" exactly? Like I said. All Randyll did was cause Sam to withdraw even more.

As to the rest of your comment, you ought to reread the books. Sam killing the Other is immensely courageous no matter how you slice it. It does not matter one iota that Sam's back was against the wall. Afterwards, he survived the Night's Watch mutiny at Crasters Keep escaped and helped Gilly and her baby survive the haunted forest. Then he faced down Cotter Pyke and Jason Mallister, two very intimidating men in their own rights, and manipulated the both of them into backing Jon for Lord Commander. That is not "wayy later." That's maybe a month or two later. And it's way before Sam put Dareon in his place.

(As an aside, no. Sam did not have to be "virtually carried" anywhere after the Fist. That chapter opens with the line "Sobbing, Sam took another step." He'd been walking for hours, and only needed to be carried by Small Paul for a short while.)

I really stuggle to see how anyone can read these books and come away thinking that Randyll fuckface Tarly has any useful insights into how to raise a child. It really baffles me.

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1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

No, he didn't "try to teach him." He hired  a bunch of goons to do things like drench Sam in blood, hang him up in chains for a night, thwack him around with a sword, all to "toughen Sam up." What is that "teaching" exactly? Like I said. All Randyll did was cause Sam to withdraw even more.

As to the rest of your comment, you ought to reread the books. Sam killing the Other is immensely courageous no matter how you slice it. It does not matter one iota that Sam's back was against the wall. Afterwards, he survived the Night's Watch mutiny at Crasters Keep escaped and helped Gilly and her baby survive the haunted forest. Then he faced down Cotter Pyke and Jason Mallister, two very intimidating men in their own rights, and manipulated the both of them into backing Jon for Lord Commander. That is not "wayy later." That's maybe a month or two later. And it's way before Sam put Dareon in his place.

(As an aside, no. Sam did not have to be "virtually carried" anywhere after the Fist. That chapter opens with the line "Sobbing, Sam took another step." He'd been walking for hours, and only needed to be carried by Small Paul for a short while.)

I really stuggle to see how anyone can read these books and come away thinking that Randyll fuckface Tarly has any useful insights into how to raise a child. It really baffles me.

Right but these 'experts' were brought in when regular training had failed. Sam wasnt showing the mental or physical.toughness needed to lead a house.

He survived all these things yes  and eventualy stood up to daeron the singer (he didnt stand up to pyke or mallister he interviewed both  to feel out their positions, neither man was agressive to him) but until he snaps and punches him isnt actively confronting his nw brother over his deriliction of duty.Hes not suited to lead a feudal house

Now i agree randyl should have let him become a maester instead of death threats to make him join the nw

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7 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Didn’t Randyll and his worldview also raise Dickon?

We’re getting into nature vs. nurture here, and as the cliche answer is ‘bit o’ both’ I think your certainty that it’s all Randyll is unwarranted. What we can say is that for most of their relationship he was the only adult, therefore a greater share of the responsibility that it didn’t work out…as opposed to actual fault…lies with him. Fault is harder to say without throwing out a lot of data on the nature side of the ongoing debate. 

But to address the very modern view that it was silly/wrong/immature for Randyll to prioritize martial skill and courage…this IS a violent feudal society. In practically every violent feudal society in human history, martial ability was a, often THE prioritized skill set for leaders. In many such societies people with physical imperfections that limited their martial ability were disqualified from becoming king/leader, and often ritualistic maiming or blinding or w/e was used instead of assassination to eliminate political rivals. We can look back on them and tut tut about their failure to see the inherent value in having a leader who loves to dance, but imo it’s pretty arrogant to decide that most of humanity got it wrong in terms of what mattered to them and their survival more than we who mostly grow up in very different societies emphasizing very different aspects of our natures. Even legendarily wise and learned leaders like Alfred the Great had to prove themselves on the battlefield before being an acceptable leader, and he was called ‘the Wild Boar of Ashdown’ long before he was called Great. 
 

Edit: it’s also bothered me how often discussions about ASOIAF reverts to deciding who deserves what kind of violent death. I find that mindset incompatible with modern sensibilities. Now possibly if I grew up in a violent feudal society I would see it differently, but to see it as a commonly mused over rubric in a community of people who did not, it seems weird and more than a little creepy. 

It’s like wiping people out in a computer game.

It’s fun, but most of us wouldn’t do it in real life.

I’ve no problem with hoping that Ramsay gets flayed and Lord Walder impaled.

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9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Didn’t Randyll and his worldview also raise Dickon?

We’re getting into nature vs. nurture here, and as the cliche answer is ‘bit o’ both’ I think your certainty that it’s all Randyll is unwarranted. What we can say is that for most of their relationship he was the only adult, therefore a greater share of the responsibility that it didn’t work out…as opposed to actual fault…lies with him. Fault is harder to say without throwing out a lot of data on the nature side of the ongoing debate. 

Sam is not like most, he is problematic, I agree. He ran from his dad's practice, hid from Allisers and refuses Snows, except Snow don't play that and treats Sam like an actual human being so Sam understands that even if he isn't like everyone else he still has to train like everyone else. Jon's assertive, but not insane.

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

But to address the very modern view that it was silly/wrong/immature for Randyll to prioritize martial skill and courage…this IS a violent feudal society. In practically every violent feudal society in human history, martial ability was a, often THE prioritized skill set for leaders. In many such societies people with physical imperfections that limited their martial ability were disqualified from becoming king/leader, and often ritualistic maiming or blinding or w/e was used instead of assassination to eliminate political rivals. We can look back on them and tut tut about their failure to see the inherent value in having a leader who loves to dance, but imo it’s pretty arrogant to decide that most of humanity got it wrong in terms of what mattered to them and their survival more than we who mostly grow up in very different societies emphasizing very different aspects of our natures.

Arrogance is an apt word for it. Correct is another one. 

It's ridiculous to assume Sam couldn't administer random castle in the Reach. He's proven shrewd in administration and politics and is capable of fighting in battles and planning them. Does he stutter and pale up, yea but that's ole Randylls doing.

If it wasnt for this myth of kinslaying, all of Westeros would have killed each other already by now.

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Even legendarily wise and learned leaders like Alfred the Great had to prove themselves on the battlefield before being an acceptable leader, and he was called ‘the Wild Boar of Ashdown’ long before he was called Great. 

Was he a good father?

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Edit: it’s also bothered me how often discussions about ASOIAF reverts to deciding who deserves what kind of violent death. I find that mindset incompatible with modern sensibilities. Now possibly if I grew up in a violent feudal society I would see it differently, but to see it as a commonly mused over rubric in a community of people who did not, it seems weird and more than a little creepy. 

I agree. Around every other corner you find a Cersei

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